Challenge to Shi'ah: Status of Abu Bakr

[Rainbow Mage]

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 9.329

Narrated byJabir bin Samura I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father
said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

 

[Yaqub]

I'll get those hadiths for you Yaqub to show there is hadiths from Sunni books holding Ali above Abu Bakr. Ali was to the Prophet like Aaron was to Moshe.

This hadith was in a specific context. When the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was going on the expedition for Tabuk, he left 'Ali رضى الله عنه in charge of the women and children. Now, 'Ali رضى الله عنه actually protested about this and said, "You are leaving me in charge of women and children!", meaning, he thought it would be more befitting for him to accompany the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم on his expedition. So the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said to him:

[FONT=&quot]أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ ‏‏هَارُونَ ‏‏مِنْ ‏‏مُوسَى ‏‏إِلَّا أَنَّهُ لَا نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي[/FONT]

"You are to me like Aaron was to Moses, except there is no prophet after me."

Meaning, the comparison with Moses and Aaron was not identical, but it was qualified. Aaron was also a prophet, so people might be confused that like Aaron, maybe 'Ali is also a prophet. The purpose of the hadith is to explain that like when Moses went to Mount Sinai to meet with God, he left Aaron in charge of the people of Israel, so likewise, when the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was going on his expedition to Tabuk, he left 'Ali in charge of the women and children who were left behind.

Some Shi'ah use this hadith to say that it proves 'Ali should succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم just like Aaron was the successor to Moses. This is nothing but ignorance and falsehood on their part, as the Prophet Aaron عليه السلام died in the lifetime of Moses, who was succeeded by Joshua bin Nun.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Read my two posts under that one Yaqub. It does show Ali is greater then Abu Bakr in the Sunni books, and the offspring of Ali and Lady Fatimah

 

[Yaqub]

Senedjem you have to understand that we Sunni Muslims also love and respect the Ahlul Bait (people of the house), its not as though we have enmity toward them. So you posting all the ahadith which talk about their virtue is kind of pointless, no Sunni is denying the high status of 'Ali, Fatimah, Hassan, or Hussain رضى الله عنهم.

As Sunni Muslims, we love in respect all the companions, our books of hadith are full of narrations praising all the companions, such as the Khulafa Rashideen, the Ahlul Bayt, the Muhajireen, the martyrs of Badr, the Ansar, etc.,

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 9.329

Narrated byJabir bin Samura I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father
said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Yes, this hadith is a prophecy about the twelve caliphs which has been correctly translated as ruler, because a caliph is, afterall, a ruler. Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, were all from the Quraysh clan, the prophecy doesn't say that these 12 rulers will all be descendants of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. A question for the Shi'ah, however, is that if they believe this prophecy is referring to their 12 Imams, were their 12 Imams rulers? Aside from 'Ali and maybe Hassan, none of the other 10 Imams of the Shi'ah ruled anything! They were either subjects of the Ummayad or Abbasid governments! So this prophecy is clearly NOT referring to the Shi'ah 12 imams.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

They were the spiritual rulers of Islam Yaqub as passed down by the family of the prophet.

 

[Yaqub]

Read my two posts under that one Yaqub. It does show Ali is greater then Abu Bakr in the Sunni books, and the offspring of Ali and Lady Fatimah

If that is the case, than why doesn't any hadith clearly say, "Ali is the best", or "he is better than Abu Bakr". Like I already mentioned, our books of hadith are full of narrations praising all the companions.

Remember the hadith: "If I were to take a khaleel (intimate friend) I would take Abu Bakr."

"If there was to be a prophet after me, it would be 'Umar"

About Saad ibn Mu'adh, the Prophet said, "Verily, the Throne of Allah has rocked at the martyrdom of Saad ibn Mu'adh" Does this hadith prove that Saad was the most excellent one?

Read the following hadiths and you will get the picture:

'Amr b. al-'As reported that Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) sent him in command of the army despatched to Dhat-as-Salasil. When 'Amr b. al-'As came back to the Prophet (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam), he said: Who amongst people are dearest to you? He said: A'isha. He then said: Who amongst men? He said: Her father (Abu Bakr), and I said: And who next? He said: Umar. He then enumerated some other men. (Sahih Muslim)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What do you make of the hadith about the people of the mantle Yaqub?

 

[Yaqub]

What do you make of the hadith about the people of the mantle Yaqub?

It's a hadith talking about the virtues of the Prophet's family, 'Ali, Fatimah, Hassan, and Hussain (may Allah be pleased with them). Like I said before, we love the Prophet's family, we have nothing against them. You have this wrong idea that we have something against them, when that's simply not the case.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well I suppose it's like Shia Islam said Yaqub, Shias will always view it their way, and Sunnis theirs. This is a long running disagreement. I was a Shia so I'll always see it from the Shia perspective. I thought when it talks about the people of the mantle being purified by Allah it meant they were without sin?

 

[Yaqub]

Well I suppose it's like Shia Islam said Yaqub, Shias will always view it their way, and Sunnis theirs. This is a long running disagreement. I was a Shia so I'll always see it from the Shia perspective.

First of all, just how many religions did you believe in?! LOL just a joke.

Think of it this way, Senedjem. If you had two sons, obviously you love them very much. But maybe you love the firstborn son a little more. Now one day you are with your second son, and you grab hold of him and say, "I love you more than the whole world", or "I love you so much", does it necessarily mean you love your second son more than your firstborn son?

This is not an unimaginable scenario. If you have two sons, sometimes you are with one praising him, and sometimes with the other praising him. Praising one son does not exclude the other. This is exactly the situation with Abu Bakr and 'Ali. Sometimes the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم would praise Abu Bakr, sometimes 'Ali. He obviously loved them both, and both of them loved eachother, which is why 'Ali رضى الله عنه took the oath of allegience at the hands of Abu Bakr when he became the first caliph of the Muslims
.

I thought when it talks about the people of the mantle being purified by Allah it meant they were without sin?

If they were without sin, than what is the need for them to be purified? You don't wash or purify a shirt that is already clean, do you?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Yaqub as for how many religions am I? Only one now, but I have been others on my journey to this point. I explain that in my spiritual journey thread, in which I stated I was a Shi'ite about 2 years. I was still learning Islam when I left Islam LOL, but I've continued to study Islam more even not being Muslim.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

*bump

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The Martyrdom of Lady Fatimah, daughter of the Prophet, by the enemies of Ali

Umar ibn al-Khattab was not only one of Abu Bakr's most zealous supporters, but also his co-conspirator and in some cases his superior. Umar led a party of armed men against Ali's house in Medina and called for Ali and his men to come out and swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, who they had decided would take power in the the meeting at Saqifah. Umar and Khalid ibn Walid threatened to burn the house down if they did not submit. When they did not submit, Abu Bakr's supporters broke in, resulting in Fatimah's ribs being broken between the broken door and the wall, and she miscarrying an unborn son named Muhsin.

 

[Yaqub]

The Martyrdom of Lady Fatimah, daughter of the Prophet, by the enemies of Ali

Umar ibn al-Khattab was not only one of Abu Bakr's most zealous supporters, but also his co-conspirator and in some cases his superior. Umar led a party of armed men against Ali's house in Medina and called for Ali and his men to come out and swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, who they had decided would take power in the the meeting at Saqifah. Umar and Khalid ibn Walid threatened to burn the house down if they did not submit. When they did not submit, Abu Bakr's supporters broke in, resulting in Fatimah's ribs being broken between the broken door and the wall, and she miscarrying an unborn son named Muhsin.

What is the source for this? Faatimah رضى الله عنها died a natural death.

 

[Shia Islam]

Well I suppose it's like Shia Islam said Yaqub, Shias will always view it their way, and Sunnis theirs. This is a long running disagreement. I was a Shia so I'll always see it from the Shia perspective. I thought when it talks about the people of the mantle being purified by Allah it meant they were without sin?

Sorry that I made my first reply unclear…

What I meant is that these Salafis, Wahabis, Taliban, and the other radical fundamentalists are not seeking to find the truth…

According to Shia Islam view- which is supported by the evidence that prominent Sunni scholars are regularly converting to Shiasm- Since Allah is the most merciful, he never let his path be hidden from the honest seekers…

That's explain why this Salafi was not able even to try to engage in a debate with you when you brought the Hadiths (Narations from the Sunni Sources)…Indeed even if a learned sunni scholar will read his reply to the narrations you gave he will only laugh…

For example his trying of restricting the hadith of Al manzila (The prophet's saying that Ali is to me as Aarun was to Moses) to the context of Tabuk shows a full ignorance of the long history of debates between Shia and Sunnis…

Let me here ignore that the clear indications of the terms of the Naration…
He missed the fact that the fact the Prophet (s) said Hadith al-Manzila on other occasions than Tabuk

For example , We read in Zakhair al-Uqba, page 120, When Imam Hasan Was born, where Allah SWT said to the prophet that "'O Muhammad your Creator conveys Peace on you and says Ali is to you as Harun was to Musa except there is no prophet after you …"
Bellow are direct links for more occasions in which the prophet said the same Narration, from "Kanz al-Ummal":

ÇáãßÊÈÉ ÇáÅÓáÇãíÉ - ßäÒ ÇáÚãÇá Ýí Óää ÇáÃÞæÇá æÇáÃÝÚÇá - ÍÑÝ ÇáÝÇÁ
ÇáãßÊÈÉ ÇáÅÓáÇãíÉ - ßäÒ ÇáÚãÇá Ýí Óää ÇáÃÞæÇá æÇáÃÝÚÇá - ÍÑÝ ÇáÕÇÏ

For Full information about the Manzila (Status) Naration read:
Answering-Ansar.org :: The Hadith of 'Manzila'

 

[Yaqub]

Sorry that I made my first reply unclear…

What I meant is that these Salafis, Wahabis, Taliban, and the other radical fundamentalists are not seeking to find the truth…

According to Shia Islam view- which is supported by the evidence that prominent Sunni scholars are regularly converting to Shiasm- Since Allah is the most merciful, he never let his path be hidden from the honest seekers…

That's explain why this Salafi was not able even to try to engage in a debate with you when you brought the Hadiths (Narations from the Sunni Sources)…Indeed even if a learned sunni scholar will read his reply to the narrations you gave he will only laugh…

For example his trying of restricting the hadith of Al manzila (The prophet's saying that Ali is to me as Aarun was to Moses) to the context of Tabuk shows a full ignorance of the long history of debates between Shia and Sunnis…

Let me here ignore that the clear indications of the terms of the Naration…
He missed the fact that the fact the Prophet (s) said Hadith al-Manzila on other occasions than Tabuk

For example , We read in Zakhair al-Uqba, page 120, When Imam Hasan Was born, where Allah SWT said to the prophet that "'O Muhammad your Creator conveys Peace on you and says Ali is to you as Harun was to Musa except there is no prophet after you …"
Bellow are direct links for more occasions in which the prophet said the same Narration, from "Kanz al-Ummal"

ÇáãßÊÈÉ ÇáÅÓáÇãíÉ - ßäÒ ÇáÚãÇá Ýí Óää ÇáÃÞæÇá æÇáÃÝÚÇá - ÍÑÝ ÇáÝÇÁ
ÇáãßÊÈÉ ÇáÅÓáÇãíÉ - ßäÒ ÇáÚãÇá Ýí Óää ÇáÃÞæÇá æÇáÃÝÚÇá - ÍÑÝ ÇáÕÇÏ

For Full information about the Manzila (Status) Naration read:
Answering-Ansar.org :: The Hadith of 'Manzila'

Even if the hadith of manzila was uttered on different occassions as well (we have to research into whether the ahadith you referenced are authentic or not), the point remains, it is not a proof that 'Ali should be the successor of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم after the latter's death...why? BECAUSE AARON DIED IN THE LIFETIME OF MOSES!

 

[Shia Islam]

Even if the hadith of manzila was uttered on different occassions as well (we have to research into whether the ahadith you referenced are authentic or not), the point remains, it is not a proof that 'Ali should be the successor of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم after the latter's death...why? BECAUSE AARON DIED IN THE LIFETIME OF MOSES!

Harun (as) would have been the Khalifa had he outlived his brother (as)

Read this:

Answering-Ansar.org :: The Hadith of 'Manzila'

 

[Yaqub]

Harun (as) would have been the Khalifa had he outlived his brother (as)'

No he wouldn't have, the successor of Musa عليه السلام was Yuwsha ibn Nun عليه السلام. Now if the hadith said, "You are to me like Yuwsha was to Musa", then, perhaps you have a point, but obviously that isn't the case.

And please answer this question, if Abu Bakr رضى الله عنه is not the first khalifah, than why did 'Ali رضى الله عنه give bayah at his hands?

 

[gruggle10]

Harun (as) would have been the Khalifa had he outlived his brother (as)

Read this:

Answering-Ansar.org :: The Hadith of 'Manzila'

 

[Shia Islam]

سورة الفرقان - سورة 25 - آية 27


ويوم يعض الظالم على يديه ...

On the day when the wrong-doer gnaweth his hands...


Quran.