Challenge: Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?

[Aamer]

Many people say they are Christian, but they do not have the Spirit. For them, Christianity is a clique, one which makes them feel superior, and one which allows them to accuse.

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To Christ, the door home is always open.

To Muhammad, the door home may become forever shut.

That is the difference.

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Also, I found this nice article:
Heartsick boy asks Pope Francis if his atheist dad is in heaven

And by the way, there is no torment. Why would you endlessly crush and grind a batch of rotten fruit? You would not. You would merely toss it and let it fade away.

I'm pretty sure you have never read the Quran. The door to repentance and salvation is never closed in the Quran unless you die as a disbeliever without ever repenting.

And it's not about Christ or Muhammad. It's only about the Creator. Your focus is on the creation when it should be in the Creator.

Peace.

Aamer.

 

[Aamer]

Should any book of religion be taken literally? Do we worship God or a book?

It seems to me most religions worship the book, can anyone explain why please?

It's not the book that's important. It's the author. If the book contains the words of your Creator. And you follow those words... You are not worshipping the book... You are worshipping the author, your Creator.

Peace and blessings.

Aamer.

 

[stvdv]

The Almighty alone is in charge. He needs no partners or assistants

He needs no partners or assistants
Thanks, quite clear. Knowing humans I even say "He is better off having no human partners or assistens". Humans are known to mess up big time all the time

 

[stvdv]

Praying to a statue, religious symbol or human/saint is Shirk

The door to repentance and salvation is never closed in the Quran unless you die as a disbeliever without ever repenting.
And it's not about Christ or Muhammad. It's only about the Creator. Your focus is on the creation when it should be in the Creator.

Thanks for explaining the Shirk concept. The word is new for me. And this concept helps me to understand Islam better.

I believe in the Creator [God]. I believe God gave several scriptures, which all have it in them to lead you to God.

First 20y brought up as Christian. Last 30y I focused mainly on Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]. Now I try if I can see unity in the diversity of the different belief systems. That's why I try to find common ground in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Boeddhism, Jewism.

Now coming to your explanation of Shirk. In India is the thought "Only God is real, all else is illusion". So praying in front of a statue means not God=statue. Would be stupid thought, limiting God to 1 statue [what about the other statues, let alone the whole creation and above all the Creator]. See the Divine in the statue is good [statue=God is different from God=statue]. Statues help to remembering relevant stories from the scriptures. Also good. Little child needs calculator to add 6+7. Most grown ups don't need this.

So in Hinduism there is no Shirk. There is the understanding that gradually you develop spiritual. Starting with seeing God outside ourselves, then seeing God as our friend, and finally realizing the Divine is also in us. Of course God in totality is far beyond our understanding.

So in Hinduism is a gradual spiritual growing. Until you reach samadhi etc. How is that in Islam? From your stories I have the feeling that the final highest stage in Hinduism is similar as what you describe "It's only about the Creator". Also in Hinduism you must continue till you reach the final stage, like you described as "The door to repentance and salvation is never closed in the Quran unless you die as a disbeliever without ever repenting".

So "abiding by Shirk" is the final exam to pass in Islam.
As "total surrender to God" is the final exam to pass in Hinduism.

So I found my common ground in Hinduism and Islam. Can you follow what I tried to describe? Do you see it totally different?

Namastee
Taco

 

[james blunt]

It's not the book that's important. It's the author. If the book contains the words of your Creator. And you follow those words... You are not worshipping the book... You are worshipping the author, your Creator.

Peace and blessings.

Aamer.

I would suggest sir, that people worshipping the author, the creator of the book, is not worshipping the actual creator of you . If you are being truly honest to God /Allah, the books are mans words and not Gods words sir.

Do you know with definitive fact, you observed for yourself, God giving anybody the words of the books?

 

[stvdv]

Do you know with definitive fact, you observed for yourself, God giving anybody the words of the books?

"ReInventing the wheel" is not always the smartest thing to do.
You accept 1+1=2. Can you proof this? Even if you can, I can create 100 others you can't; all of them you use in daily life. You never observed yourself. You cannot even proof. You just use them, because all people do so, and it seems to work oke.

The same is on the spiritual path. The saints have made this easy for us. You can believe it, and from there meditate or whatever is advised and become enlightened, after which you will know. Or you keep on "inventing the wheel" over and over again. Also oke, but not as efficient is my experience.

I studied engineering. Do you really think that I checked every word in the book on being truth. No I decided to accept the book. And that's why in a few years I got my degree.

Same on the spiritual path. Arguing whether or not a scripture is the Truth or not is not fruitful. Pick the book/study you like and perfect your own study. Whether it's Buddhism, Zoroastrism, Hinduisme, Atheism, Humanism, Egoism....All path can lead you to the truth. Reading won't get you there. You have to practise.

IMHO

 

[A Spirit Runs Through It]

Your focus is on the creation when it should be in the Creator.

Yes, my concern is for creation, because my Father asks this of me.

He says to me, "O Child, I can surely look after myself. So please, I do not need your mechanical prayers, nor constant admiration from you. For I see that you love me, and adore me, because you work to accomplish what I ask of you; which is to serve your siblings well, and to think of them, and to love them and adore them, as you love and adore me. In them, you will see my face, and rejoice."

However, Satan then whispers to me; saying, "Is your Master not omnipotent, not omniscient; is he not able to guide his creation, according to his will? What is the matter with you? How do you judge? You say that you hear him, and feel him in your heart. But really, you only hear yourself, and your heart is filled with selfishness. For you do not pray throughout the day, you offer up no words of remembrance. Verily, you only care for those who please you, and you dismiss those who annoy you."

And so, I then despair. For I know at least one truth among the lies of Satan.

But I hear, once again, the voice of my Father; saying to me, "Have faith, my child, and continue working with me, in the name of my firstborn. Because, one day, you will no longer fall short, and you will no longer despair. I will bring you out of your cocoon, and you will become complete, and perfect."

You know nothing about Muhammad. Nor does anybody else. Everything you THINK you know about Muhammad is just heresay.

Rhetorically speaking – What is a tree without its roots?

What matters about Muhammad is what people believe he said and did.

In that same vein, you cannot know that God exists, just as you know that life on Earth requires water. Everyone KNOWS that life requires water, but not everyone knows there is God. You choose to believe the Quran, not because you KNOW it is true, but rather, because you BELIEVE it is true.

 

[james blunt]

You accept 1+1=2.

Well ! You believe 1+1 = 2 which is not always the case. 1+1 =1 in some cases, example, 1 electron + 1 proton = 1 atom . Now you have told me 1+1 = 2 but in simplicity I have shown your belief in not being a fact and falsifiable.

So if a person should not take 1+1=2 literally, do you not think the same applies to taking the book litterally?

 

[stvdv]

Well ! You believe 1+1 = 2 which is not always the case. 1+1 =1 in some cases, example, 1 electron + 1 proton = 1 atom . Now you have told me 1+1 = 2 but in simplicity I have shown your belief in not being a fact and falsifiable.

So if a person should not take 1+1=2 literally, do you not think the same applies to taking the book litterally?

I have to disappoint you here:
I didn't say "I believe 1+1=2", I said "you accept 1+1=2"
Of course I know "1+1=1"
I also know "1+1=3"
Just pick the one you like, and go from there on. Same with the spiritual books. That's all what I said.

I didn't tell you to take "spiritual book literal"
I just said "Pick the book/study you like and perfect your own study"
You cannot proof all words in the book are true; would take eternity to finish 1 book

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well first would have to discover as to who wrote the q'uran, Seeing that Islam prophet Muhammad could not read or write.
Seeing that it came down that Muhammad wife would read and write for him.

So the question would be, As to how would muhammad know for sure what his wife was reading and writing for him, Seeing Muhammad couldn't read or write ?
And seeing muhammad's wife knowing Muhammad treated women like dogs.
And seeing muhammad made his son divorce his wife so Muhammad could have her as his wife.

Muhammad went into the Temple of goddess Diana in Ephesus, and destroyed all the pagan statues, But kept the rock which fell from heaven and Muhammad took the rock and put it in the East corner of the Kaaba in Mecca.

Muhammad is said to have walk around the Kaaba 7 times, Then kiss the rock which he calls the god that takes away all sins.
And gives salvation to all who kisses the rock which fell from heaven.

Who is this god, seeing muhammad is called the messenger of Allah,
It doesn't take much to figure out, Just who Muhammad is referring to. As the rock that takes away all sins and gives salvation to all who kisses the rock ( Allah )

The crescent moon and star were carried on the head of Osiris the golden calf and in the middle of the head of the golden calf is the crescent moon and star and You will find the serpent in the middle of them, Which according to the Bible Rev 12:9, is Satan that old serpent and Satan the Devil.

This symbol, Crescent moon and star, is found on every Muslim Mosque.

In Hebrew its translated
Heylel Ben Shachar = Lucifer son of the Dawn.

In Arabic Hilal = Crescent moon.
When putting it all together it simply means = Heylel Ben Shachar Crescent moon. son of the morning star or the Dawn

Crescent and morning Star ( Lucifer)
Rising with Dawn, This has become the symbol of Muslims Allah and Islam.
Crescent moon and star repsents Lucifer, Satan himself.

In the book of Acts 7:43, They are called,
Moloch - Rephan the star of your god, And the images you made in order to worship them. Acts 19:29-37.

In Egypt they were called the god of
Osiris - ISIS
In Assyria - Assur - Ishtar
Babylon - Bel - Belit
Persia - Mithra - Anahita
Greece - Helios - Artemis
Rome - Apollo - Diana - goddess

Unto which all these gods fell under one banner the Crescent moon and star.

In the Bible they are called ( Baal )
Ashtcroth - Ashtoreth = Queen of heaven.

Moloch tent of the star of Moloch.
Acts 7:40-43
Amos 5:26



Ashtoreth - Ashteroth
the goddess ( Queen ) of heaven
Acts 19:35
Jeremiah 7:9,18 & 44:17-19
Zephaniah 1:5, 2:11
Deuteronomy 4:19, 6:14,15
1st kings 11:33

If you like to know more, watch this video

 

[Faithofchristian]

Actually the quran is proven to be correct because that is the case, it isn't about individuals
but the big picture.

Why the quran has to mention that the Jews and Christians will be friends even though that
in reality Jews don't accept Jesus and even accused him of being a son of whore.

God knows that Jews and Christians will be against Islam, don't you think that is the case today?

First of all, As to which Jews are you referring to.
The disbelieving Jews or The believing Jews.
For they are not all of Israel which are of Israel. Romans 9:6

There is only 2 tribes left in Israel, all the other 10 tribes are schattered throughout the world.

There's the tribe of Israel and the tribe of Juda, The only ones that are left in Israel

 

[Sakeenah]

Very well said. Keep up the good work. It's not often that we get such articulate Muslim. I very much enjoy your take on things (and that's coming from a strong atheist).

*stares at YmirGF* not sure if serious or sarcastic.

Thank you, I appreciate this comment

 

[A Spirit Runs Through It]

What is the official Catholic Doctrine though?

I am not sure about Catholic doctrine, I would have to check the Catholic Catechism.

Some people are getting to heaven and others are either tormented or thrown away as garbage in both doctrines. I still don't see the difference.

I do not think that, in both, people are either tormented or thrown away as garbage. Because, in one of them, there is a spirit of yearning, to be able to recover what is lost. And whereas one is content to label a person as garbage, the other salvages a person from that label.

With such a spirit of yearning, how can the one be considered harsh, at all? What is harsh, for example, about a spirit that despairs over its wayward child? It continues to yearn for them, even if they refuse to return home.

The other one lacks any spirit of yearning and recovery. Its spirit is one of damnation. How can you claim to yearn for a person to be recovered when you are the one who executes them? Should you not be desiring an homecoming, and growth?

Why would the door be closed in Islam?

How can the door to repentance be open if you have been executed, since death finalizes the window of repentance?

On the other hand, a spirit of yearning would never choose to close that window of time.

Anyone can choose to humbly submit to God with devotion and sincerity, and Allah can and will forgive anything. Quran also explicitly says that this sincerity of humble submission can be found outside of Islam.

Examine the matter as if you were living in the era of Muhammad. During that time, choosing to submit to Allah meant choosing to submit to Muhammad, for all intents and purposes. It was not that you could submit to God, and in the same instance, choose not to submit to Muhammad. The two went hand-in-hand. There are verses in the Quran which appear to accept a salvation in God despite not accepting Muhammad as God’s Messenger, but it seems clear to me that those verses were simply instances of pandering. For, at other times, Muhammad appears to adjust his position to suit the circumstance, and to advance his agenda. For example, he said:

“[...] And whosoever opposes God and His Messenger—truly God is severe in retribution. Thus it is, so taste it, and [know] that the disbelievers shall have the punishment of the Fire.” (Q. 8:13-4)

In other words, “Oppose me, and you will burn in hell. Shut me down, and this movement down, and I will shut you down.”

Muhammad was human and sinful, as stated in the Quran. But even so, there was no tolerance for effective opposition. If there was some policy of Muhammad’s which you found to be detrimental, and you effectively opposed him, you were deemed to be in opposition to God himself, and you were declared to be a disbeliever and subject to punishment.

Again; how can the door to repentance be open if you have been punished and executed, since death finalizes the window of repentance?

Yes, it is mentioned in the Quran there is salvation beyond Islam, but insofar as you did not oppose Muhammad and affect the implementation of his mission. In truth, you cannot be saved outside of Islam, not entirely.

Finally, your Christianity may be liberal, but that is your individual faith. If you are going to compare that way, there are many sincere Muslims who have similarly expansive ideas of salvation as yours. For consistency, please compare organizational beliefs with organizational beliefs OR individual faith with individual faith.

Noted. Good point.

Although, I do not care to compare organizational beliefs, but rather, compare the beliefs of two individuals and founders, as I understand them.

I also find both doctrines much harsher than the idea of universal liberation that Hinduism has.

Can you please explain more about universal liberation in Hinduism?

It is my understanding that, there is a closing time to the window of opportunity, beyond preference. The matter is perhaps something like a GIF file, where our image is animated repeatedly and forever. However, it is in this lifetime that we decide how the GIF of our soul will look, and how it will move. Those GIFs which are obscene will be lost.

 

[sayak83]

I do not think that, in both, people are either tormented or thrown away as garbage. Because, in one of them, there is a spirit of yearning, to be able to recover what is lost. And whereas one is content to label a person as garbage, the other salvages a person from that label.

With such a spirit of yearning, how can the one be considered harsh, at all? What is harsh, for example, about a spirit that despairs over its wayward child? It continues to yearn for them, even if they refuse to return home.

I am unable to see the difference. Doesn't Jesus himself say that those who do not repent will be thrown out as garbage or burnt away like useless weed after the harvest? Those who do repent, will be welcomed with open arms. Its the same with Islam as well. Those who acknowledge God with humility will be welcomed to paradise and all his/her wrongs forgiven, as Allah is very merciful.

The other one lacks any spirit of yearning and recovery. Its spirit is one of damnation. How can you claim to yearn for a person to be recovered when you are the one who executes them? Should you not be desiring an homecoming, and growth?

But Allah too desires that all come to Him. Indeed that is His only desire. Whenever they do, in whatever way, is welcomed and accepted. I don't see anything of what you say in the Quran at all.

How can the door to repentance be open if you have been executed, since death finalizes the window of repentance?

In Christianity too, death finalizes the window of repentance. What's different here?

On the other hand, a spirit of yearning would never choose to close that window of time.

Are you suggesting that human spirits can repent after death and be accepted then? Please quote the Bible on this please.

Examine the matter as if you were living in the era of Muhammad. During that time, choosing to submit to Allah meant choosing to submit to Muhammad, for all intents and purposes.

Absolutely not. Christians and Jews did not require to submit to Muhammad or his religion (at least according to Quran). Quran decries idolatry (worshiping multiple Gods and deifying images) and it criticizes those Christians and Jews who deny that the Quran is a genuine revelation and hence consider the Muslims as false believers. Most of the writings geared towards Christians and Jews are apologetics, seeking to establish the equivalent validity of Quran with Tanakh and the NT, and Muhammad as a prophet like Moses and Jesus. The passages are in the similar rhetorical style as Isiah against the lukewarm Jews, and John and Jesus against the Pharisees.

It was not that you could submit to God, and in the same instance, choose not to submit to Muhammad. The two went hand-in-hand. There are verses in the Quran which appear to accept a salvation in God despite not accepting Muhammad as God’s Messenger, but it seems clear to me that those verses were simply instances of pandering. For, at other times, Muhammad appears to adjust his position to suit the circumstance, and to advance his agenda. For example, he said:

“[...] And whosoever opposes God and His Messenger—truly God is severe in retribution. Thus it is, so taste it, and [know] that the disbelievers shall have the punishment of the Fire.” (Q. 8:13-4)

In other words, “Oppose me, and you will burn in hell. Shut me down, and this movement down, and I will shut you down.”

And whosoever opposes Jesus and his message will not go to hell? Opposition requires active action that threatens Muslims or stops them from living the Islamic life and follow Quran. Let us assume that, I am a leader of a country. And I
a) Ban Bibles
b) Burn down all churches and arrest anyone who professes Christianity.
c) Burn all Christian texts and books. Create artwork that mocks and derides Jesus.
d) Do this till my dying breath remaining unrepentant.
What, according to Christianity, will happen to me at resurrection?

Muhammad was human and sinful, as stated in the Quran. But even so, there was no tolerance for effective opposition. If there was some policy of Muhammad’s which you found to be detrimental, and you effectively opposed him, you were deemed to be in opposition to God himself, and you were declared to be a disbeliever and subject to punishment.

Who is being executed for non-belief in the Quran? Could you quote a verse from the Quran..apart from the places where the opponent is attacking (as in war) the Muslims and one is enjoined to take up arms in self-defense? Are proposing Christians should fight and kill in self-defense...say against Hitler?

Yes, it is mentioned in the Quran there is salvation beyond Islam, but insofar as you did not oppose Muhammad and affect the implementation of his mission. In truth, you cannot be saved outside of Islam, not entirely.

Please quote the Quranic verse that says to forcibly convert people to Islam by conquest?
If there is not, it appear Quran has the same message as Christianity...enjoining the followers to spread the good news of a new revelation to the ends of the earth by peaceful means and only fight when ones life and liberty are threatened.

Although, I do not care to compare organizational beliefs, but rather, compare the beliefs of two individuals and founders, as I understand them.

So Quran vs the Gospels? Let's go.

Can you please explain more about universal liberation in Hinduism?

Yeah. Everybody is an aspect of the Ultimate Reality (God or Brahman) that has differentiated through an innate creative and aesthetic drive. Some have become too enamored with this created multifarious world and have forgotten that they are one with Brahman. The ignorance caused by the delusive forgetting of one's true nature has caused them to be "swept along" with the turbulent eddies of creation and destruction that characterizes the material nature. They , therefore have become entangled with nature, embodied beings subject to change, growth, decay, death and rebirth...the foundation of suffering that is called life.
Thus Hinduism is a set of practices that allows all beings to remember their true innate identity with the Ultimate Ground of Being (God or Brahman), and through this realization, disentagle from nature and become merged with the Divine Self that animates and forms the essence of all things in Creation.
Thus necessarily, all are saved, as all are in essence one with God, and all can and will remember it...today or the day after.

It is my understanding that, there is a closing time to the window of opportunity, beyond preference. The matter is perhaps something like a GIF file, where our image is animated repeatedly and forever. However, it is in this lifetime that we decide how the GIF of our soul will look, and how it will move. Those GIFs which are obscene will be lost.

We believe differently.

 

[MonkeyFire]

I found a few human-unfriendly verses:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.”
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us; he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”
“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.”
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.”

God will send these verses to naught as they are badness.

 

[stvdv]

I found a few human-unfriendly verses:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.”
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us; he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”
“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.”
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.”

God will send these verses to naught as they are badness.

These verses I found in the Bible !!! So it's not only Koran that has cruel verses !!!

 

[A Spirit Runs Through It]

I am unable to see the difference. Doesn't Jesus himself say that those who do not repent will be thrown out as garbage or burnt away like useless weed after the harvest? Those who do repent, will be welcomed with open arms. Its the same with Islam as well. Those who acknowledge God with humility will be welcomed to paradise and all his/her wrongs forgiven, as Allah is very merciful.

My point is, the Quran does not invest a fullness of hope, in people, as the Gospel does. Yes, the Gospel teaches that on the day of Resurrection those people who are like weeds, who have not yielded any fruit, will be uprooted and burned. However, that is on the day of Resurrection, on the day of harvest — not before. It is the Quran which insists on killing people, on uprooting and burning the weeds before the day of harvest. Whereas the Gospel hopes that weeds will yield fruit, saving them until the end, rejecting any justification to uproot them early — the Quran justifies early death (as in cases of self-defense).

The hope is the mercy.

And because the Quran professes that it engenders ultimate mercy, and yet it fails to engender ultimate hope, it deserves to be challenged and corrected.

In my understanding of Christianity, there is no justification for killing in self-defense. Yes, the faithful are supposed to “proclaim [the Good News] throughout all the earth” and, “proclaim God’s deeds among the peoples” (Isaiah 12). But when threatened with persecution and death, the faithful are supposed to forgive those who threaten them, even unto death. Because that is the Good News.

So Quran vs the Gospels? Let's go.

Sure. That would be interesting.

Everybody is an aspect of the Ultimate Reality (God or Brahman) that has differentiated through an innate creative and aesthetic drive. Some have become too enamored with this created multifarious world and have forgotten that they are one with Brahman. The ignorance caused by the delusive forgetting of one's true nature has caused them to be "swept along" with the turbulent eddies of creation and destruction that characterizes the material nature. They , therefore have become entangled with nature, embodied beings subject to change, growth, decay, death and rebirth...the foundation of suffering that is called life.

Thus Hinduism is a set of practices that allows all beings to remember their true innate identity with the Ultimate Ground of Being (God or Brahman), and through this realization, disentagle from nature and become merged with the Divine Self that animates and forms the essence of all things in Creation.

Thus necessarily, all are saved, as all are in essence one with God, and all can and will remember it...today or the day after.

That is a lovely idea. I wish it will ring true, in some sense.

 

[MonkeyFire]

These verses I found in the Bible !!! So it's not only Koran that has cruel verses !!!

Dispute the body of Moses with satan and do not curse at the devil.

 

[stvdv]

Dispute the body of Moses with satan and do not curse at the devil.

My reply was to your reaction:
"Why would God even fight he has the authority to manipulate. That's why I dissagre with the violence of the Koran, especially when it can be non-violence"

I was just pointing out that Bible is the same as Koran in that regard; both having violence.
Maybe I should have put it in your own words:
"Dispute the body of .... with satan and do not curse at the devil":

I do agree that non-violence is what I prefer also

 

[sayak83]

My point is, the Quran does not invest a fullness of hope, in people, as the Gospel does. Yes, the Gospel teaches that on the day of Resurrection those people who are like weeds, who have not yielded any fruit, will be uprooted and burned. However, that is on the day of Resurrection, on the day of harvest — not before. It is the Quran which insists on killing people, on uprooting and burning the weeds before the day of harvest. Whereas the Gospel hopes that weeds will yield fruit, saving them until the end, rejecting any justification to uproot them early — the Quran justifies early death (as in cases of self-defense).

The hope is the mercy.

And because the Quran professes that it engenders ultimate mercy, and yet it fails to engender ultimate hope, it deserves to be challenged and corrected.

In my understanding of Christianity, there is no justification for killing in self-defense. Yes, the faithful are supposed to “proclaim [the Good News] throughout all the earth” and, “proclaim God’s deeds among the peoples” (Isaiah 12). But when threatened with persecution and death, the faithful are supposed to forgive those who threaten them, even unto death. Because that is the Good News.



Sure. That would be interesting.



That is a lovely idea. I wish it will ring true, in some sense.

Quran, as far as I have read, only allows killing in self defense. I do not see that as particularly violent. Are you saying Christians are strictly forbidden to defend themselves? If somebody breaks into your house and tries to kill your wife and children, you are forbidden from fighting and resisting that guy?