Challenge: Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?

[Wasp]

I did understand already that what some translations implied in verse 5:51 "Muslims can't be friends with Christians and Jews" is false

Your interpretation is also false.

 

[stvdv]

Your interpretation is also false.

Again that is your opinion. I like Koran 5:48 on this.

 

[Wasp]

Again that is your opinion. I like Koran 5:48 on this.

It is not an opinion. It is an established fact.

 

[stvdv]

It is not an opinion. It is an established fact.

I leave that for Allah to decide

 

[Wasp]

I leave that for Allah to decide

Not much of an excuse in the end if you ignore everything else about the holy book and take one verse deciding it is enough for you to decide when Allah answers the question in the Qur'an.

 

[stvdv]

Not much of an excuse in the end if you ignore everything else about the holy book and take one verse deciding it is enough for you to decide when Allah answers the question in the Qur'an.

There is not 1 rule for all how one should behave spiritually. Some follow strict 1 religion, that is their choice.
IF I find something that is good and useful, I use it. And there are quite a few verses in the Koran that I find useful.
If I find a verse that feels not good, I try to find another way to read it, because in the end I do believe God gave the Scripture
I don't judge the way you practice your spiritual life. Why should you judge my way?

 

[Wasp]

There is not 1 rule for all how one should behave spiritually. Some follow strict 1 religion, that is their choice.
IF I find something that is good and useful, I use it. And there are quite a few verses in the Koran that I find useful.
If I find a verse that feels not good, I try to find another way to read it, because in the end I do believe God gave the Scripture
I don't judge the way you practice your spiritual life. Why should you judge my way?

I don't. What I do judge is your lack of willingness to face the facts, your wish to distort the meaning of the Qur'an, your willingness to mislead other people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. And your unwillingness to reason.

Practice whatever you like, but don't confuse it with Islam if it isn't it.

 

[stvdv]

I don't. What I do judge is your lack of willingness to face the facts, your wish to distort the meaning of the Qur'an, your willingness to mislead other people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. And your unwillingness to reason.

Practice whatever you like, but don't confuse it with Islam if it isn't it.

This particular thread is about Koran verse 5:51. And I focus on 2 things alone which to me feel not correct:
a) Misleading translation omitting the word "some" so the verse reads as "All Christians and Jews can't be friends"
b) Misleading translation using the word "friend" instead of "ally" or "protector" in many of the english translations

This is my opinion. And if you don't give a good reason that above is wrong, why should I change my opinion

You seem to have a problem that I trust my feeling. Seems to me that you have a problem, not me.

But you did make 1 thing abundantly clear. You don't agree with me. And I don't agree with you
So I agree to disagree on this verse interpretation. You follow your way, and I continue my way

 

[Pastek]

Using the word "friend" here is not friendly. Using "some friends" makes it better (but none of the 10 translations I saw add the word "some").
Translating it as below gives me a very negative vibe, so I can not believe Allah meant it in this way.

God is not trying to be "friendly" He just exposes facts. That verse in particular was during a certain time, ok ?. Translators can't add/change the Words of God. Sometimes they choose a word over an other one, some add many in brackets.
If you read the Bible I'm afraid you gonna have a syncope. And they also have different versions/translations.
You need to forget the "some" or verses that shouldn't "generalize" this or that. If you read without isolating the verses you'll understand it.
I don't think it's necessary to argue more with that, If you don't like it then don't like it that's up to you.
We are not translators but gave you the meaning, you can check dictionaries and choose the Quran's translation that you prefere (feels more correct).


57.27 Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel.
And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah .


37.111 And We blessed him* and Isaac. But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself.

[*Abraham]


You feel better ? If you want more we have more.
But I think you understand now that you need to read the whole Book.
I already quoted as an exemple a verse which was against some of the arab bedouins previously, it seems general (there was no "some" word )but it wasn't.
Many bedouins until that day are still muslims aren't they ?
Because it was just a question of context.

Best is to agree to disagree on things we can't agree on I think. I like what Koran 5:48 says about that.

It's ok. I hope you don't feel that we are harsh on you.
This was just your feelings and apparently you took that verse that way.

 

[Jim]

And "Allies" feels already better. And "protector" feels even more good to me. "Some ... protectors" feels maybe the best.

I’m glad that you found a way to like it. I’m sorry for the hostility in my posts.

 

[Jim]

But I think you understand now that you need to read the whole Book.

I don’t think that reading the whole book is enough, to see it in its full context. I think that it needs to be seen in the context of the stories that came with it, and in the fellowship that revolves around the light in them.

 

[Wasp]

I don’t think that reading the whole book is enough, to see it in its full context. I think that it needs to be seen in the context of the stories that came with it, and in the fellowship that revolves around the light in them.

Since the Qur'an isn't merely "read" , but studied, that goes without saying.

 

[stvdv]

God is not trying to be "friendly" He just exposes facts

Oh yes. This I know. I don't try to make God's words friendly looking. That was exactly the word I had a problem with. I just like to know what God really said and meant with it. You can read Arabic, so you have the original words. I have to rely on translations which differ quite a bit

That verse in particular was during a certain time, ok ?. Translators can't add/change the Words of God.

I understand it was needed at that particular time. I think I understand what you mean here. Koran is given in Arabic language. That is original and that can not change. Translations are not Koran, they are just translations. Lucky for me, 1 Muslim and 1 Hindu gave me 2 translations that they said were the best to read, most close to what is meant in Arabic version. I agree with those translations, no problems found so far.

The Muslim who gave me the Koran even told me that the translation I was reading before was funded by ISIS, so I better stop reading that one. I was happy he told me this. And more happy he gave me a "good" translation. A big difference.

If you read the Bible I'm afraid you gonna have a syncope

I had to look up the word "syncope". Yes there are quite some Bible verses that I rather would check with God what's that all about

We are not translators but gave you the meaning, you can check dictionaries and choose the Quran's translation that you prefere (feels more correct).

Yes. And I am glad I did start this thread. I got a much better translation now, and got rid of the other translation.

It's ok. I hope you don't feel that we are harsh on you.
This was just your feelings and apparently you took that verse that way.

NO. You have been very kind with me, and very patient. Thank you for that. I hope I was not too harsh on you. I just want a correct translation.

At least now I know that I better be very careful which the translation I read. So, whenever I run into verses that don't feel good, I check my .pdf version with 10 different translations or my word for word translation. Whenever I read something that really feels bad, my first thought is "Probably translation error, I better check the Arabic word for word translation" to see what Allah really meant.

 

[Jim]

Since the Qur'an isn't merely "read" , but studied, that goes without saying.

For Muslims who are practicing together. It looks to me like some people aren’t aware of that at all.

 

[stvdv]

I’m glad that you found a way to like it. I’m sorry for the hostility in my posts.

Thank you. No hard feelings. I am responsible for my words. My words triggered something in you. Can't blame you for it ... my words caused it.

 

[Wasp]

For Muslims who are practicing together. It looks to me like some people aren’t aware of that at all.

What?

 

[Jim]

What?

People can read the whole Quran, and still think that it’s mostly promoting hatred and violence against non-Muslims, if they don’t know about the stories, and haven’t seen Muslims following the light in them together.

 

[Jim]

Thank you. No hard feelings. I am responsible for my words. My words triggered something in you. Can't blame you for it ... my words caused it.

I’m a hothead sometimes.

 

[Wasp]

People can read the whole Quran, and still think that it’s mostly promoting hatred and violence against non-Muslims, if they don’t know about the stories, and haven’t seen Muslims following the light in them together.

That's why there's commentary.

Its good to associate with (other) Muslims - if they're good Muslims at least - but it isn't necessary for understanding a lot of the Qur'an.

 

[Pastek]

I don’t think that reading the whole book is enough, to see it in its full context. I think that it needs to be seen in the context of the stories that came with it, and in the fellowship that revolves around the light in them.

Of course, it's better