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Featured Challenge: Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by stvdv, Apr 22, 2018.

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  1. As a Muslim I say YES

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  2. As a Muslim I say NO

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  3. As a non-Muslim I say YES

    6.3%
  4. As a non-Muslim I say NO

    93.8%
  1. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    While I greatly anticipate @Aamer 's take on the matter, you are plenty welcome to expose your views as well.

    Ideally, I would want a representative sample of Muslim views too. But that may be difficult to attain or even to recognize.


    A partner that is cooperative (which is why he would be considered a partner in the first place) but not always in full alignment with God, then?

    Sounds reasonable. Hard to say whether that is a common or the original interpretation without some evidence, though.

    That sounds likely.

    Beats me. I stand fairly surprised by the apparent emphasis that many Muslims - even presumably secular ones - put in the idea of shirk. It is not exactly rational from where I stand.


    That may well be.
     
  2. Sakeenah

    Sakeenah Well-Known Member

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    I didn't claim anything, I just simply quoted the verses and hadith that are related to God's mercy,love and forgiveness in Islam and that triggered you..

    Correction.. that is your measure as a Christian. As a Muslim I don't share the same view as you in regards to God's attributes, and my definiton of true mercy,forgiveness and love is different than yours.

    I don't believe in the Christian concept of sin. I did not claim that God forgives all sins, and God's mercy is not linked to this. God is Most Just, He forgives who He wills an punishes who He wills. We believe that we are responsible for our deeds. I'm not saved just because I'm Muslim, I can still be among those who enter Hell.

    Does christianity teach that everyone will enter heaven even those that don't accept Jesus as their lord and saviour? If not I can use your argument against you. Have a blessed day.
     
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  3. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Very well said. Keep up the good work. It's not often that we get such articulate Muslim. I very much enjoy your take on things (and that's coming from a strong atheist). :D
     
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  4. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    You should post more. We are severely lacking in people of the Islamic faith in this forum.
     
  5. A Spirit Runs Through It

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    You know what, Sakeenah, you are right. I guess I was triggered. But you should understand something; that when someone defends my abuser, it brings to mind painful memories. He manipulated me; he lied to me; he told me to trust him, and I did. And then, he molested my soul. You may be one kind of wife with him; but with me, I was just a tool.

    That may be. However, what is good for all is truly good; and what is good, only for one, is really good for none.

    It is easy to believe this-or-that when you set yourself up as the master (I am thinking of the vanquished, in the Muslim conquests). When you are the master, things are however you say they are. But that does not make you good and just.

    Christ’s measure is for the sake of those who are lost. Muhammad’s measure is for the sake of those already found. In other words, what good is a hospital which turns away the sick?

    You may hold different beliefs – and I respect that in principle – but the measure which I try to utilize is the human measure. With all due respect, a supremacist measure is not equally as valid as the humanist measure.

    That produce which is plucked from the tree and found to be rotten will be thrown away, for it has no use. As for the judgment of what is rotten and what it not, that will be left for the Christ to decide, at the Resurrection.

    Labels and mere talk do not guarantee redemption. Therefore, I may talk the part of the humanist, and you the part of the supremacist, and yet, I walk the path of supremacy, and you the path of humanity. As far as I am concerned, you are less rotten than I am, if at all.

    Nevertheless, things may be fine when Muhammad spends the night at your house; he may make you feel safe and loved; he may be gentle. But when he spent the night at my house, he was a hellish brute. Love him if you must, but do not discount the abuse.
     
  6. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Ok...that seems like a very forgiving God. Come under His sole protection and He can and will forgive everything. Does it not undermine your argument of absence of mercy in Quranic theology?
     
  7. A Spirit Runs Through It

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    “We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for having ascribed partners unto God, for which He has not sent down any authority. And their refuge shall be the Fire, and evil is the abode of the wrongdoers.” (Q. 3:151)

    “Say, ‘He, God, is One, God, the Eternally Sufficient unto Himself. He begets not; nor was He begotten. And none is like unto Him.” (Q. 112)

    As you can see, there is no equal, no partner “like unto” Allah. And those who believe there is an equal will be terrorized in hell. For the Christian, Jesus is an equal to Allah.

    Mercy? One can claim anything they like, but that does not make it so. One may say, “I am indeed being fair.” And yet, they are not fair.
     
  8. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    In Christianity too, anybody who does not believe that Jesus is the Way are going to everlasting torment, according to many orthodox interpretations...is that not true? How is this different?
     
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  9. A Spirit Runs Through It

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    Many people say they are Christian, but they do not have the Spirit. For them, Christianity is a clique, one which makes them feel superior, and one which allows them to accuse.

    ---

    To Christ, the door home is always open.

    To Muhammad, the door home may become forever shut.

    That is the difference.

    ---

    Also, I found this nice article:
    Heartsick boy asks Pope Francis if his atheist dad is in heaven

    And by the way, there is no torment. Why would you endlessly crush and grind a batch of rotten fruit? You would not. You would merely toss it and let it fade away.
     
  10. james blunt

    james blunt Well-Known Member

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    Should any book of religion be taken literally? Do we worship God or a book?

    It seems to me most religions worship the book, can anyone explain why please?
     
  11. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    What is the official Catholic Doctrine though?
    Some people are getting to heaven and others are either tormented or thrown away as garbage in both doctrines. I still don't see the difference. I also find both doctrines much harsher than the idea of universal liberation that Hinduism has.

    Why would the door be closed in Islam? Anyone can choose to humbly submit to God with devotion and sincerity, and Allah can and will forgive anything. Quran also explicitly says that this sincerity of humble submission can be found outside of Islam.

    Finally, your Christianity may be liberal, but that is your individual faith. If you are going to compare that way, there are many sincere Muslims who have similarly expansive ideas of salvation as yours. For consistency, please compare organizational beliefs with organizational beliefs OR individual faith with individual faith.
     
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  12. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Perhaps some people are not very good at handling their craving for certainty and allow it to lead them into scripture worship.
     
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  13. james blunt

    james blunt Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps, but it is not difficult to understand and accept simplicity.
     
  14. Aamer

    Aamer Truth Seeker

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    You are missing the whole point of everything I said. I grew up as a Sunni Muslim and as I began to search for truth myself, I came to understand that "Islam" as Muslims practice it today is infested with Luciferian paganism. The same can be said for modern day Christianity and Judaism.

    I could care less about what Muhammad was "said to have done." In fact, Muhammad isn't even important. Only the Creator is important.

    Please show me how any of what you have stated has anything to do with the Quran.

    Focus on the scripture. I'm not interested in what the followers of any religious cult say, preach or believe.

    Talk scripture and we can have a discussion. Human labels and heresay are of no concern to me.

    Peace and blessings.

    Aamer.
     
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  15. Aamer

    Aamer Truth Seeker

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    Hey Luis. The concept is quite simple. There is only ONE Creator aka Master Designer of this Universe. He needs no help.

    He has no wife. No brothers. No sisters. No children. No lesser gods. All of those beliefs come from paganism.

    He has sent prophets and messengers down to humans. But they are only his chosen servants. Not partners.

    The Almighty alone is in charge. He needs no partners or assistants.

    Easy to understand or do you have any questions?

    Peace and blessings of the Most High upon us all.

    Aamer.
     
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  16. Aamer

    Aamer Truth Seeker

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    You know nothing about Muhammad. Nor does anybody else. Everything you THINK you know about Muhammad is just heresay.

    Every writing about Muhammad that is out there today came into existence 300+ years after his death.

    And guess who started propagating the stories about Muhammad 300 years after his death?

    The corrupt, Satanic Abbassid Caliphate.

    Political agenda to control the masses maybe?

    Please research the facts beforeyou just regurgitate baseless stories you have heard.

    There's a reason that Muhammad is barely mentioned in the Quran.

    The messenger is not the point of focus.

    Only the message matters. Not the messenger.

    But humans love to worship the messenger.

    Humans are prone to evil.

    Humans love to deny their Creator and worship the Creation.

    Aamer.
     
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  17. Aamer

    Aamer Truth Seeker

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    Thank you my friend. I appreciate the kind words .But I don't consider myself as someone of the "Islamic faith." I don't attend Sunni or Shiite mosques. They would either kick me out or behead me (depending on which country I'm in). I don't care for labels. I'm simply a monotheist and a student of the scriptures.

    If someone asks me if I'm a Muslim... My answer is...

    By definition... Yes. A Muslim by definition is someone who submits his will to the Almighty Alone.

    But I don't belong to the cult that claims to be the religion of Islam today.

    I believe the Quran is the word of the Most High. But sectarian "Muslims" today do not believe the Quran. Because the Quran says that it is complete and no further text is needed. But sectarian Muslims brought in hadith books (alleged sayings of Muhammad) 300 years later and follow the teachings of these man made books with more devotion than the word of their Creator.

    It's almost exactly what the Jews did by giving the Talmud (Satanic book btw) more importance than the Torah.

    Silly humans.

    Aamer.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @Sustainer: Should any book of religion be taken literally? Do we worship God or a book?
    It seems to me most religions worship the book, can anyone explain why please?

    Makes sense to me.
    And perhaps the craving for certainty comes from fear. Can be fear of a punishing God if they made mistakes.
     
    #138 stvdv, Apr 27, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @LuisDantas: Perhaps some people are not very good at handling their craving for certainty and allow it to lead them into scripture worship

    Scripture Worship easily leads to arrogance "my scripture is the only and best one to lead to the Truth"
    Easily you end up in an Ego-trip. Called arrogance. Which is known to be blinding [not open for other truth]
    So then it's difficult to understand and accept simplicity [caught in their own created net of their truth]
     
    #139 stvdv, Apr 27, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  20. Aamer

    Aamer Truth Seeker

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    When it comes to commentary of the Quran... Just ignore it and read ONLY the translation. And make sure it's a translation that's not funded by the Wahhabi Saudi Government. That commentary is probably the personal wishful thinking of a wife beating, ignorant, intolerant Saudi caveman.

    Loving your spouse, parents or children is not Shirk. It's normal human behavior.

    Praying to a statue, religious symbol or human/saint is Shirk.

    It's a lot more simple than people make it out to be.

    Peace and blessings my friend. The Almighty is not as complicated as humans make him out to be. :)

    Aamer.
     
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