Challenge: I'm willing to convert if.......

[Madsaac]

You are a miracle. Open your eyes, open your mind. You are a conscious being, miraculously emerged from the interplay of mysterious phenomena constituting our universe. You are quite literally stardust.

Thanks, what about one from the bible or since?

 

[Madsaac]

Only to you, because you think you know that there are no miracles. But you don't, because you can't. Your arrogance is really no different than the arrogance of those that caim to know their miracles happened. Since they can't know that their miracles are any more real than you can know that they aren't.

There is a great deal that we humans do not know about what is existentuially possible and what is not. Pretending we have all the answers may make us feel better, but it doesn't lessen our ignorance any. In fact, it just makes it harder for us to learn anything new.

I know there are no miracles because there is no evidence of any taking place?

Out of this whole discussion, no one, has yet to show any remote chance of a miracle taking place.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Thanks, what about one from the bible?

Maybe start at the beginning;

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

 

[Madsaac]

This has nothing to do with what I stated in my posts. Please read again and respond. Based on your posts I do not consider your quest sincere, It is more a flat rejection of religion. Again, the demand for proof is not a reasonable demand concerning any religious belief.

Surely a religion entails something of the extraordinary. Does it not?

That's all I'm asking. Proof of some kind, of this extraordinary.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I know there are no miracles because there is no evidence of any taking place?

Out of this whole discussion, no one, has yet to show any remote chance of a miracle taking place.

You won't see anything much if you choose to keep your eyes closed;

“If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.”​

― William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

 

[Madsaac]

In the testing of new drugs, experimenters often use what is called a placebo. A placebo is an inert or sugar pill that has no biological effect. It is used as a control to factor out power of suggestion, since the sales hype can have an effect. My guess is some miracles could be connected to a placebo effect, where the faith of the sick person in the solution, allows a healing induction. We see this in tests.

Many people get flu shots, for example, because they do not know whether they will need it or not. Getting it has a psychological effect on some people, even if they did not need it. They may have stayed healthy, without it. Bu they assume the flu shot protects them like a talisman.

I believe that if there are placebo healing dynamics; via the brain. There are also induced placebo sicknesses; sick by association. The hypochondriac will want to get all the latest sicknesses. Since this fetish, has a psychological connection; placebo sickness, they could also be healed with the brain; sugar pill. This explains how the medicine man could heal, with a ritual dance, followed by chicken soup.

If we go back to ancients times, they do did not have microscopes nor did they know about cellular anatomy. So there was no way to know if the sickness was bacterial, viral, genetic, nutritional, or even placebo. So some miracles could have occurred via herbs, prayers and the brain making the needed corrections. The idea of evil spirits and disease, seems to point to placebo disease, since this images, according to psychology, are in the head; imagination and frontal lobe.

I tend to think too many people assume a miracle is like what is sensationalized on TV or at the movies. It can be sometimes less obvious, but just as spectacular. For example, say a prolong depression was suddenly, alleviated, by meeting the love of your life. Is that a miracle? The love connection will tweak the brain and change your brain's and body chemistry. If that scenario occurred after years of therapy and drugs, all not working, is it a miracle of natural healing? Natural healing is not stressed, since there is no money in it. Natural healing often needs a little push; miracle of faith.

Much of this, make sense

 

[sayak83]

Yes, you can't prove anything apart from maths but I'm willing to be 50% convinced.

No, but thanks for the effort

Just a no? That is disappointing. I have provided evidence of the kind you requested. If you are not willing to engage with the evidence then I can charge you with the same close-mindedness as you accuse religious people of.

 

[Madsaac]

Can you speak adequately for your daughter? Meaning, do you know what she understands well enough to represent her here?

EDIT: No need to involve your daughter.

Faith is a promise of something real whose realization is in the future (ie, the thing promised is unseen at the time the promise is given). And when the giver of the promise is 100% capable of making good on the promise, and 100% trustworthy to do so—and when the receiver of the promise knows this—that newly born faith is also the evidence that the thing will be realized. I can offer an example or two if that would help illustrate this in a practical way.

Applying this truth to your daughter, and admitting assumptions I cannot account for without more information, if she sought healing and did not receive it and didn't understand why she didn't, her understanding was lacking in that she didn't realize that without a promise of healing, she was not exercising—she could not exercise—faith to be healed.

Again, admitting I am ignorant of everything other than the scant info you've provided, I don't doubt her trust in God (her "faith" in God, if you will). She just doesn't know him well enough to understand how he works vs how he doesn't. And so her petition was not answered in the way she sought (to the extent that I understand what she sought).

Belief in Jesus, god whatever is all about faith, not facts.

That faith comes from your upbringing or what people have told you, nothing else. Not god, not Jesus, just your regular Tom, Dick or Harry

 

[Madsaac]

Do not be afraid to live in the moment
Focus on the past, won't give you what you ask

Sorry I don't understand?

Have you witnessed and miracles and can prove they actually happened?

 

[Madsaac]

Just a no? That is disappointing. I have provided evidence of the kind you requested. If you are not willing to engage with the evidence then I can charge you with the same close-mindedness as you accuse religious people of.

Mate, if that's the best you've got, then you prove my point.

 

[Madsaac]

Maybe start at the beginning;

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Yeah where is the proof, these are just words, nothing more.

You have been conned

 

[Unfettered]

Belief in Jesus, god whatever is all about faith, not facts.

That faith comes from your upbringing or what people have told you, nothing else. Not god, not Jesus, just your regular Tom, Dick or Harry

So this is a troll thread?

 

[Madsaac]

You won't see anything much if you choose to keep your eyes closed;

“If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.”​

― William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Then open them, I have been asking for a while, I cannot believe something because something was written 2000 years a go. Show me some evidence.

I am an independent thinker, I do not like to be brainwashed

 

[Madsaac]

So this is a troll thread?

No, not at all.

I am willing to change my beliefs but I need some evidence, please, thats all.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Then open them, I have been asking for a while, I cannot believe something because something was written 2000 years a go. Show me some evidence.

I am an independent thinker, I do not like to be brainwashed

I suspect you have a long way to go before you can describe yourself as a genuinely free or independent thinker. But good luck on your journey.

 

[Unfettered]

No, not at all.

I am willing to change my beliefs but I need some evidence, please, thats all.

So, will good-faith discourse be a part of this process, or are you just placing an order for information?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Can you speak adequately for your daughter? Meaning, do you know what she understands well enough to represent her here?

EDIT: No need to involve your daughter.

Faith is a promise of something real whose realization is in the future (ie, the thing promised is unseen at the time the promise is given). And when the giver of the promise is 100% capable of making good on the promise, and 100% trustworthy to do so—and when the receiver of the promise knows this—that newly born faith is also the evidence that the thing will be realized. I can offer an example or two if that would help illustrate this in a practical way.

Applying this truth to your daughter, and admitting assumptions I cannot account for without more information, if she sought healing and did not receive it and didn't understand why she didn't, her understanding was lacking in that she didn't realize that without a promise of healing, she was not exercising—she could not exercise—faith to be healed.

Again, admitting I am ignorant of everything other than the scant info you've provided, I don't doubt her trust in God (her "faith" in God, if you will). She just doesn't know him well enough to understand how he works vs how he doesn't. And so her petition was not answered in the way she sought (to the extent that I understand what she sought).

I thank you for your reply and am sorry if bringing my daughter into he argument made you uncomfortable.

I really have no interest in pursuing this, because I already have my answer. I was simply wanting @jimb's insight based on his own direct experience.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Mate, if that's the best you've got, then you prove my point.

Only if your point is that you would indiscriminately dismiss anything you were presented with in this thread.

You were given the evidence you requested and have yet to refute any of it or ask questions about what was presented. It leads me to question if you even read the article.

 

[sayak83]

Mate, if that's the best you've got, then you prove my point.

Interesting. That is what YEC creationist say when given reams of evidence of evolution.
Here we have hundreds of verified past life memory events collected over 30-40 years that has been published in peer reviewed journals and have not received and debunking. It's excellent evidence by any objective scientific standard of existence of re-birth phenomena.
Trying to downplay evidence that does not fit ones worldview is classic cognitive bias. It seems you are suffering from it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Interesting. That is what YEC creationist say when given reams of evidence of evolution.
Here we have hundreds of verified past life memory events collected over 30-40 years that has been published in peer reviewed journals and have not received and debunking. It's excellent evidence by any objective scientific standard of existence of re-birth phenomena.
Trying to downplay evidence that does not fit ones worldview is classic cognitive bias. It seems you are suffering from it.

Past life memory isn't verified and is certainly not evidence aside from testimony by those who believe it.

There are just too many holes in past life memory that just dosent hold water to be regarded as genuine or completely legitimate.