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Chaitanya Mahaprabhu... incarnation of Krishna?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And I am sure Sage Tulsidās would dread the idea of being born as a scorpion, or a cockroach or a fly.

But then of course I tell you nothing new as your caption says: "Janani Janmabhoomishcha, swargadapi gariyasi" (Mother and Motherland are more important than attaining heaven) - Lord Rama in Valmiki Ramayana.
A sage according to Hinduism must have unlimited love for all critters in the world. You may not agree with the idea. In 'Advaita' too (non-duality) which is my professed belief, we consider everything in the universe, living or non-living, to be composed of one entity, Brahman, Technically I am you and you are me. So harming any life is unthinkable.

As for my signature, I am no sage, but just an ordinary critter. I have my prejudices. A sage will not like my nationalism. Sage Tulsidas said:

"Sabai bhumi Gopāl ki, yā men atak kahān; jā ke man men atak hai, so hi atak rahā."

(All land belongs to God, where is hindrance in that? But they who have hindrance in their souls are hindered.)
 
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Cassandra

Active Member
A sage according to Hinduism must have unlimited love for all critters in the world. You may not agree with the idea. In 'Advaita' too (non-duality) which is my professed belief, we consider everything in the universe, living or non-living, to be composed of one entity, Brahman, Technically I am you and you are me. So harming any life is unthinkable.

As for my signature, I am no sage, but just an ordinary critter. I have my prejudices. A sage will not like my nationalism. Sage Tulsidas said:

"Sabai bhumi Gopāl ki, yā men atak kahān; jā ke man men atak hai, so hi atak rahā."

(All land belongs to God, where is hindrance in that? But they who have hindrance in their souls are hindered.)
My view, and please think nothing of it.

I think the difference in view here is to see Hinduism a monolithic thought structure. Rather than one religion, Hinduism is a label given by foreigners to the various religious traditions in India. For Christians it was inconceivable that so many different religions could live peacefully together as Christians were endlessly genociding each other over small differences in interpretation. That is why they considered all traditions part of a rather messy religion without any obvious structure. That is how Hinduism is still described in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

To me, your religion is not Hinduism but Advaita. Which is a highly philosophical tradition with a distinct purpose that attracts a certain kind of people of a certain nature who seek the same thing in life. But it would be wrong to see Advaita and its ideas as defining Hinduism at large.

As far as I can see, the idea that a Sage MUST have UNLIMITED love for all critters in the world fits perfectly with Advaita philosophy. To love all beings is basically the same as to hate all beings, it means that one treats all beings with the same equanimity. This is part of the detachment that people seek that want to break the cycle of Live. If one wants to return to Brahman, one has to let go of all bonds and everything that distinguishes, that creates individuality, as in Brahman these things no longer exist. It is like dissolving salt in water, making it lose all structure and identity. But that ideal in life is only an ideal that attracts a limited group of people.

In my view Sages as not such people. Sages are not striving to end their life cycles, on the contrary. Why do people want to leave existence? There can be two reasons. One: they have satisfied every possible desire and existence no longer has anything to offer for them, they have come to a natural end of their life cycles. Two: They overindulged in captivating experiences and lost the path and created so much negative karma that they are overcome with suffering and no longer want to live further any more. These people seek release. They want to leave existence through the emergency exit. They want to be taken out of the game. There is such an exit for people also known as the mercy of God. This path we find in Christianity, Buddhism and Advaita etc.

In my opinion that is not the path of Hinduism at large. When we read the Mahabharata. This is the path that is shown to Arjuna and only Arjuna by Krishna, because Arjuna is overcome with sorrow. It is a path that is an escape for the warriors in particular, because warriors are generally egotists that create huge amounts of negative karma. Krishna did not teach this path to other people. The Bhagavad Gita is meant as secret writing as is mentioned in the text. But religions bringing release are the most proselytizing of all as they like to spread teachings to "save" other sufferers from further suffering.

As I understand it, the normal path that is shown in the Ramayana and Mahabharata is the path of Dharm. Dharm as way to create a happy existence and continue on the path of evolution. For normal people do not want out of the game, but they want to continue playing and evolve in the process. But to successfully do that they need to follow the path of Dharma. Only the right behavior creates results that makes existence a happy affair and worthwhile. It is the people that have grown weary of existence that say: There is no happiness in existence, suffering is an iron chain, and joy a golden one. Indeed, for them it has become this way, for them only the thought of being released in Brahman gives joy.

I do not think Sages are like that. Sages are people who through thousands and thousands of generations of highly dharmic behavior have evolved to a very high level of consciousness from which they guide others. Yes they wish all beings well. That is not so special as you may think. Even a thought is an action and negative thoughts are negative actions that create negative results. It is common sense to wish all others well, just like it is common sense not to want to hurt others. Anyone bright enough to understand the workings of Karma will try to improve his future happiness, and thus destiny. Sages are more aware of that as they are cleaner. One sees a spot much easier on a clean white cloth.

But will sages lovingly embrace the evil? As I see it, that is a mistake. It reminds me of a story of Ramakrishna about a disciple that had learned from his master that Brahman is in all beings. Fully emerged in this happy thought he saw an elephant running wild coming down the road. A caretaker shouted to get out of the way. But he wanted to embrace this Divine creature. Alas instead it grabbed him, shook him wildly and left him broken and half dead in the bushes. When his master found him he asked why he had not fled to safety. The disciple answered that he wanted to embrace the elephant as the Divine was in him. Then the master said. The Divine is also in the caretaker and he told you to take cover.

I find that is the problem with philosophies that promise release, Mosksha, Nirvana, they are highly idealistic and to some extend Utopian. But religion is not primarily for escapists who want out, it is also for the people who want to make the most out of existence.

As I see it, some people may think that returning to Brahman is the highest goal, but that goes against Brahman itself. Because Brahman manifests itself in existence and us, and as Brahman can not go against its own longing, existence must surely be what is meant to be. To reject existence in the name of Brahman is a contradiction. That is why all religions reject suicide, it can never be what was meant to be. The purposely ending of ones life cycles is an even more definite form of suicide. However this death is one that also belongs to nature. In Nature we see that some species can no longer continue their life-cycles and become extinct. But this return to Brahman is rarely considered a happy thing.

To my knowledge, in the Ramayana and Mahabharata we read of Sages whose bloodline ended because they were unintentionally shot while being in animal form. Those sages did not lovingly bless their attackers because they were released from Earthly existence and also must always love all creatures as you claim. No they cursed them (most noble people) in the most horrible way. One can say these Sages acted wrong but I would be careful judging people with many times higher consciousness than mine.

So, your idea may be perfectly in line with your special tradition, but to say this is a moral imperitive in Hinduism in general seems to me a contradiction to how I understand it. But then again my ideas carry no weight for others, and should be taken lightly.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
@Cassandra I have colored your lines in red. My answers are in black.

To me, your religion is not Hinduism but Advaita. But it would be wrong to see Advaita and its ideas as defining Hinduism at large.

Not to see ‘advaita’ as Hindu also would be wrong. I do not find my religion messy, this is how it was construed. I know of the Hundreds of views which will differ from ‘advaita’. Even my own view is not classical advaita, but still I belong to the same stream with the same view of ‘dharma’.

As far as I can see, the idea that a Sage MUST have UNLIMITED love for all critters in the world fits perfectly with Advaita philosophy. To love all beings is basically the same as to hate all beings, it means that one treats all beings with the same equanimity. This is part of the detachment that people seek that want to break the cycle of Live.
You are getting it wrong here. Detachment is not break from life. A detached person will still have his* ‘dharma’ and will be expected to fulfill that (care for the family, be a useful part of the society, etc.).The person is not a ‘sannyasi’. Only that he/she will not be worried about the result of his actions. Good if he has achieved that, good even if he is not able to achieve that. The satisfaction should be in performing his duty well and to his best capability. Results are a matter of chance (or for theists, the will of Gods). At no point in all Hinduism in any stage of life, any one can hate a living being (human or animal). Even a war is to be fought only as a necessity and not because of hate. Very well described in BhagawadGita (2.47): ‘Karmanyeva adhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachana’

* Note: I am using ‘his’ only for convenience though I agree that it applied to the same measure to ‘her’ also.

If one wants to return to Brahman, one has to let go of all bonds and everything that distinguishes, that creates individuality, as in Brahman these things no longer exist. It is like dissolving salt in water, making it lose all structure and identity. But that ideal in life is only an ideal that attracts a limited group of people.
Let go of bonds is letting go of attachment to results. It does not mean that one will have nothing to do with other people and think of himself only. That will be selfish. If a person does not desire anything for himself and does not hate anyone, then that is sufficient. As BhagawadGita says (5.3): ‘Jneyah sa nitya-sannyasi, yo na dweshti, na kankshati’. That person is ever a ‘sannyasi’. Ever renounced.

In my view Sages as not such people. Sages are not striving to end their life cycles, on the contrary. Why do people want to leave existence? There can be two reasons.
Both the reasons you describe are not valid in Hinduism. Even a ‘sannyasi’ has his ‘dharma’. He cannot transgress that. And that is a long list which is intimated to him at the time of initiation. And at no point Hinduism will suggest suicide because that interferes with a person’s ‘dharma’, the ‘dharma’ remains unfulfilled.

Krishna did not teach this path to other people. The Bhagavad Gita is meant as secret writing as is mentioned in the text.
Krishna has the same path for every one on earth, the path of a person’s ‘dharma’. Do whatever is necessary to fulfill your ‘dharma’. If it means going to war even with relatives, one should not be deterred. Arjuna’s hesitation was for this reason as his opponents were all his elders, teachers, relatives and friends. So, should you not arrest a person involved in a crime if he is your relative? Krishna said: follow your ‘dharma’ irrespective of all other consideration. BhagawadGita lays bare what was considered secret and difficult teaching for all people for all times.

It is the people that have grown weary of existence that say: There is no happiness in existence, suffering is an iron chain, and joy a golden one. Indeed, for them it has become this way, for them only the thought of being released in Brahman gives joy.
Hinduism does not let you be weary of existence. There is always your ‘dharma’ to fulfill. I am 74 years old and my mother is 94. I still have my ‘dharma’ towards her. My wife is 70 years old and I have my ‘dharma’ towards her too. Then there ware my son and daughter and their children, and relatives too. How can my existence be without joy? 'Pleasure and sorrow are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception' and we should not be worried about that. (BhagawadGita 2.14) I am in no hurry to leave this life. It will happen naturally when its time comes. And in my philosophy, I am already Brahman, I do not merge with anything, do not go to any heaven. I am star-dust, what I am constituted of has been around for 13.7 billion years and will continue to be that for many more billions years.

But will sages lovingly embrace the evil? As I see it, that is a mistake.
Sages will not embrace evil, however, they will embrace the evil-doer and try to convert him in the way of love. Of course, I am not a sage and I am not as good. I still have my prejudices.

I find that is the problem with philosophies that promise release, Mosksha, Nirvana ..
As I said above, there is no release, moksha and nirvana in my philosophy. I am already free. I am Brahman itself. Not every one will have the same view as mine. If believing in release, moksha and nirvana satisfies some people, let them think like that. All people do not have the same intelligence or knowledge. That is why Hinduism is different for different people.

As I see it, some people may think that returning to Brahman is the highest goal, but that goes against Brahman itself. Because Brahman manifests itself in existence ..
You are right and that is exactly what I have explained above. Brahman itself is existence. I will cease to exist in this form but I can never wholly cease to exist. That is very well explained in BhagawadGita (2.12) “There was never a time when me, you or these kings did not exist and there will never be a time when they will cease to exist”.

One can say these Sages acted wrong but I would be careful judging people with many times higher consciousness than mine.
No. Stories apart, if any one even thinks of harm to any other person, then he falls short of the requirement of being a sage. Sage Vishvamitra remained a 'Rajarshi' (lower rank sage) for many eons before becoming a Brahmarshi (Highest rank sage) because he could not abandon 'krodha' (anger).
 
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shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Detachment is not break from life. A detached person will still have his* ‘dharma’ and will be expected to fulfill that (care for the family, be a useful part of the society, etc.).The person is not a ‘sannyasi’. Only that he/she will not be worried about the result of his actions.

This is incorrect. We have already discussed this before.

Sanyasa exists because people cannot be detached in worldly life. You cannot be unmoved when your child is suffering in pain, claiming that you read about detachment in an old Sanskrit book. One cannot be indifferent on losing a loved one, claiming detachment. This is what I mean by adopting impractical views from religious material - without really thinking through them.

Only that he/she will not be worried about the result of his actions.

It is impossible to act without being concerned about the outcome. I already gave you examples to explain this clearly. Examples of sports people, promotions at work, business investments, etc., etc.,. Only a neurotic individual would remain indifferent to the outcome of his hard effort.

As explained earlier, Sanyasa exists for this reason of detachment. They have no ties, no duties to perform and hence, have to only worry about disease, aging and death. Once again, the Gita is a text on Moksha and is irrelevant to the common man, for he has no interest in the concept (beyond lip service, that is).
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Sanyasa exists because people cannot be detached in worldly life. You cannot be unmoved when your child is suffering in pain, claiming that you read about detachment in an old Sanskrit book. One cannot be indifferent on losing a loved one, claiming detachment. This is what I mean by adopting impractical views from religious material - without really thinking through them.
So what will Sage Bharata do? Let the fawn get drowned in the river in front of his eyes?
It is impossible to act without being concerned about the outcome. I already gave you examples to explain this clearly. Examples of sports people, promotions at work, business investments, etc., etc.,. Only a neurotic individual would remain indifferent to the outcome of his hard effort.
I do not agree to that. Like in sports, one cannot win all the time. But one tries to do his/her best. If one fails, there will be other chances, one does not abandon playing. It is the same with life. Sometimes one will win, sometimes one will loose, but we have to go on with life. A true 'yogi' will only be concerned about the quality of his effort. The rest is up to chance (or as I said the will of God). That is the meaning of 'anāsakti' in BhagawadGitā. Krishna did not say that you abandon action. Krishna is very clear about this.

"Mā karma-phala-hetuh-bhuh, mā te sangostu akarmani."
Neither work for the result of your action, nor you be enamored of inaction.
Krishnārpanamastu.
 
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