Catholics/Christians: is this the heart of your faith?

[IndigoChild5559]

Today I rewatched an old movied called the Mission. It is about a Jesuit missionary to brings Christiainity to the Indians above the falls in the Amazon, and how the politics between Spain and Portugal effect the slave status of these Indians and the position of the Catholic Church. It is a tremendous drama beyond words with one of the most moving scores I've ever heard.

There is one section I can relate to as a Jew, and I had an insight that it may be critically important to Catholics (and indeed all Chrisitans) -- it would be very helpful to me as an outsider if you could comment on it.

It begins when the Slaver kills his own brother, and goes into a deep depression because of his tremendous guilt and remorse. In Judaism we understand remorse for our sins. The Jesuit Father goes to him, and challenges him to accept penance. While such things are not common in modern Judaism, historically Jews have fasted and worn sackcloth and ashes when they have repented.

For his penance, the priest has the slaver carry a heavy load up the steep sides of the Falls to the Indian village where live the very people he has enslaved. We see him struggle, feeling burdened just to watch him. At one point, he slips and almost falls down the cliffs. And with great resolve, he returns to carrying his load up the Falls.

Once there, judgment awaits. The head of the village races towards him, shouting, and puts a knife to his throat in anger. It would be justice for the slaver to die for his sins, for the many lives that have suffered and died at his own instigation. Yes, Jews understand the Justice of God, the King of the Universe. The slaver does nothing in his own death. He yields to Justice.

But the chief has become a believer, and learned the value of forgiveness. Instead of cutting the slaver's throat, he cuts the load from his back We listen as the metal burden clanks as it falls against the rocks down, down the length of the Falls. At first, the slaver is stupefied. Then he begins to cry, to absolutely sob. Mercy, forgiveness.

It is like on our Day of Atonement. Our Lord, Avinu, our Father, forgives our sins, casting them into sea, as far as east is from the west, and knowing them no more. I don't even know the name for the emotion one feels when one is forgiven a great sin. But I know it deeply.

Catholics talk about grace, how the heart of the Catholic, or Christian, faith is God's grace, ad the forgiveness of sins. Would you say that this scene in The Mission captures your central believe? Can you please discuss?

I truly think this is a good topic for the comparative section.

 

[The Anointed]

Today I rewatched an old movied called the Mission. It is about a Jesuit missionary to brings Christiainity to the Indians above the falls in the Amazon, and how the politics between Spain and Portugal effect the slave status of these Indians and the position of the Catholic Church. It is a tremendous drama beyond words with one of the most moving scores I've ever heard.

There is one section I can relate to as a Jew, and I had an insight that it may be critically important to Catholics (and indeed all Chrisitans) -- it would be very helpful to me as an outsider if you could comment on it.

It begins when the Slaver kills his own brother, and goes into a deep depression because of his tremendous guilt and remorse. In Judaism we understand remorse for our sins. The Jesuit Father goes to him, and challenges him to accept penance. While such things are not common in modern Judaism, historically Jews have fasted and worn sackcloth and ashes when they have repented.

For his penance, the priest has the slaver carry a heavy load up the steep sides of the Falls to the Indian village where live the very people he has enslaved. We see him struggle, feeling burdened just to watch him. At one point, he slips and almost falls down the cliffs. And with great resolve, he returns to carrying his load up the Falls.

Once there, judgment awaits. The head of the village races towards him, shouting, and puts a knife to his throat in anger. It would be justice for the slaver to die for his sins, for the many lives that have suffered and died at his own instigation. Yes, Jews understand the Justice of God, the King of the Universe. The slaver does nothing in his own death. He yields to Justice.

But the chief has become a believer, and learned the value of forgiveness. Instead of cutting the slaver's throat, he cuts the load from his back We listen as the metal burden clanks as it falls against the rocks down, down the length of the Falls. At first, the slaver is stupefied. Then he begins to cry, to absolutely sob. Mercy, forgiveness.

It is like on our Day of Atonement. Our Lord, Avinu, our Father, forgives our sins, casting them into sea, as far as east is from the west, and knowing them no more. I don't even know the name for the emotion one feels when one is forgiven a great sin. But I know it deeply.

Catholics talk about grace, how the heart of the Catholic, or Christian, faith is God's grace, ad the forgiveness of sins. Would you say that this scene in The Mission captures your central believe? Can you please discuss?

I truly think this is a good topic for the comparative section.

Although I am not a catholic, indeed far from being one, I believe in forgiveness, and I believe by the death of Christ, [The Anointed One] who revealed himself through his servant Jesus, I have been forgiven, and am no longer under the penalty of Death, which has no more power over me.

 

[LightofTruth]

Today I rewatched an old movied called the Mission. It is about a Jesuit missionary to brings Christiainity to the Indians above the falls in the Amazon, and how the politics between Spain and Portugal effect the slave status of these Indians and the position of the Catholic Church. It is a tremendous drama beyond words with one of the most moving scores I've ever heard.

There is one section I can relate to as a Jew, and I had an insight that it may be critically important to Catholics (and indeed all Chrisitans) -- it would be very helpful to me as an outsider if you could comment on it.

It begins when the Slaver kills his own brother, and goes into a deep depression because of his tremendous guilt and remorse. In Judaism we understand remorse for our sins. The Jesuit Father goes to him, and challenges him to accept penance. While such things are not common in modern Judaism, historically Jews have fasted and worn sackcloth and ashes when they have repented.

For his penance, the priest has the slaver carry a heavy load up the steep sides of the Falls to the Indian village where live the very people he has enslaved. We see him struggle, feeling burdened just to watch him. At one point, he slips and almost falls down the cliffs. And with great resolve, he returns to carrying his load up the Falls.

Once there, judgment awaits. The head of the village races towards him, shouting, and puts a knife to his throat in anger. It would be justice for the slaver to die for his sins, for the many lives that have suffered and died at his own instigation. Yes, Jews understand the Justice of God, the King of the Universe. The slaver does nothing in his own death. He yields to Justice.

But the chief has become a believer, and learned the value of forgiveness. Instead of cutting the slaver's throat, he cuts the load from his back We listen as the metal burden clanks as it falls against the rocks down, down the length of the Falls. At first, the slaver is stupefied. Then he begins to cry, to absolutely sob. Mercy, forgiveness.

It is like on our Day of Atonement. Our Lord, Avinu, our Father, forgives our sins, casting them into sea, as far as east is from the west, and knowing them no more. I don't even know the name for the emotion one feels when one is forgiven a great sin. But I know it deeply.

Catholics talk about grace, how the heart of the Catholic, or Christian, faith is God's grace, ad the forgiveness of sins. Would you say that this scene in The Mission captures your central believe? Can you please discuss?

I truly think this is a good topic for the comparative section.

I don't think anyone can know forgiveness without the ability to forgive others.

 

[PureX]

Most people will forgive when confronted with such remorse. But few will forgive when that remorse is not forthcoming, whether they are Christian or non-Christian. So I think the scenario offered by "The Mission" is not particularly in keeping with the ideology of Christ, which involves forgiving those who 'sin against us, 7 X 70 times' (meaning always), and being forgiven, in return, to that same degree.

"The Master has no mind of her own.
She works with the mind of the people.

She is good to people who are good.
She is also good to people who aren't good.
This is true goodness.

She trusts people who are trustworthy.
She also trusts people who aren't trustworthy.
This is true trust.

The Master's mind is like space.
People don't understand her.
They look to her and wait.
She treats them like her own children." - from the Tao Te Ching

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Most people will forgive when confronted with such remorse. But few will forgive when that remorse is not forthcoming, whether they are Christian or non-Christian. So I think the scenario offered by "The Mission" is not particularly in keeping with the ideology of Christ, which involves forgiving those who 'sin against us, 7 X 70 times' (meaning always), and being forgiven, in return, to that same degree.

I would disagree. The slaver is so overwhelmed by remorse that he hardly eats or takes care of himself and goes into seclusion. And remember that his repentance is genuine -- upon forgiveness his life does a 180. The same Indians he once hunted and enslaved he now serves, devoting his entire life to Christ and work as a missionary, teaching farming, music, reading, and other skills to improve their lives. You just really don't get more genuine than this.

Remember too, that his forgiveness by the Indians is all wrapped up in his perception of forgiveness by God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would disagree. The slaver is so overwhelmed by remorse that he hardly eats or takes care of himself and goes into seclusion. And remember that his repentance is genuine -- upon forgiveness his life does a 180. The same Indians he once hunted and enslaved he now serves, devoting his entire life to Christ and work as a missionary, teaching farming, music, reading, and other skills to improve their lives. You just really don't get more genuine than this.

Remember too, that his forgiveness by the Indians is all wrapped up in his perception of forgiveness by God.

BTW, I *love* the Tao Te Ching and your quote is awsome! But remember that it does not represent the teachings of Christianity. Christianity teaches that if your brother strikes you on one cheek, to turn the other cheek; to forgive seventy times seven; to ask God to forgive you *as you forgive others.*

 

[PureX]

I would disagree. The slaver is so overwhelmed by remorse that he hardly eats or takes care of himself and goes into seclusion. And remember that his repentance is genuine -- upon forgiveness his life does a 180. The same Indians he once hunted and enslaved he now serves, devoting his entire life to Christ and work as a missionary, teaching farming, music, reading, and other skills to improve their lives. You just really don't get more genuine than this.

Remember too, that his forgiveness by the Indians is all wrapped up in his perception of forgiveness by God.

I understand, I've seen the film. But my point is that being a Christian is not about changing the bad guys to good guys by forgiving them. It's about forgiving them, regardless. One of the apostles specifically asked Jesus about this, and the reply he received was to forgive "7 X 70 times", meaning there is no limit to the forgiveness (the number 7 in the Bible is symbolic of an infinite or eternal amount or degree). That means that forgiveness is not contingent upon remorse, or repentance. This is something that very few Christians, or anyone else for that matter, want to consider. Yet it is the teaching of Jesus the Christ. And it is the promise of Christ that if we will follow this teaching, we will be healed and saved from ourselves, and may help to heal and save others. It does not guarantee, however, that the person we forgive will not turn against us and commit offense, yet again.

The film shows the positive, immediate result of forgiveness very powerfully. But that's because there was intense remorse on the part of the offender. In real life that is rarely the case. Yet real life Christians are being admonished by Jesus to forgive even when remorse and repentance are not forthcoming from the offender. The film did not address this, and many professing Christians ignore it as well. Yet it is a fundamental teaching of Christianity.

 

[metis]

Today I rewatched an old movied called the Mission. It is about a Jesuit missionary to brings Christiainity to the Indians above the falls in the Amazon, and how the politics between Spain and Portugal effect the slave status of these Indians and the position of the Catholic Church. It is a tremendous drama beyond words with one of the most moving scores I've ever heard.

There is one section I can relate to as a Jew, and I had an insight that it may be critically important to Catholics (and indeed all Chrisitans) -- it would be very helpful to me as an outsider if you could comment on it.

It begins when the Slaver kills his own brother, and goes into a deep depression because of his tremendous guilt and remorse. In Judaism we understand remorse for our sins. The Jesuit Father goes to him, and challenges him to accept penance. While such things are not common in modern Judaism, historically Jews have fasted and worn sackcloth and ashes when they have repented.

For his penance, the priest has the slaver carry a heavy load up the steep sides of the Falls to the Indian village where live the very people he has enslaved. We see him struggle, feeling burdened just to watch him. At one point, he slips and almost falls down the cliffs. And with great resolve, he returns to carrying his load up the Falls.

Once there, judgment awaits. The head of the village races towards him, shouting, and puts a knife to his throat in anger. It would be justice for the slaver to die for his sins, for the many lives that have suffered and died at his own instigation. Yes, Jews understand the Justice of God, the King of the Universe. The slaver does nothing in his own death. He yields to Justice.

But the chief has become a believer, and learned the value of forgiveness. Instead of cutting the slaver's throat, he cuts the load from his back We listen as the metal burden clanks as it falls against the rocks down, down the length of the Falls. At first, the slaver is stupefied. Then he begins to cry, to absolutely sob. Mercy, forgiveness.

It is like on our Day of Atonement. Our Lord, Avinu, our Father, forgives our sins, casting them into sea, as far as east is from the west, and knowing them no more. I don't even know the name for the emotion one feels when one is forgiven a great sin. But I know it deeply.

Catholics talk about grace, how the heart of the Catholic, or Christian, faith is God's grace, ad the forgiveness of sins. Would you say that this scene in The Mission captures your central believe? Can you please discuss?

I truly think this is a good topic for the comparative section.

It is literally one of my favorite movies, which is historical fiction but really captures some of the conflict between secular and religious leaders, but also conflicts within a religious body like the Church. Often the right way to go was not so clear, and very often compromises were made, which may or may not have been moral.

The scene you refer to above deals with guilt, which not only is a really strong issue in Catholicism but also Judaism, as you well know. Maybe there should be a contest as to which is greater: Catholic guilt or Jewish guilt?

People work out their guilt in different ways, but the method used by the man in the movie was really quite excessive, and I doubt any priest would approve of that methodology.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I understand, I've seen the film. But my point is that being a Christian is not about changing the bad guys to good guys by forgiving them. It's about forgiving them, regardless.

My objective in this thread is to get Catholic/Christian feedback, and you have been kind enough to do so, so whatever else I say, please read it in the light of my appreciation.

I wonder if all Christians would agree with you. Doesn't it say something about being transformed?

For me, at least, if there is no repentance (meaning a return to God's ways) there is no forgiveness. Furthermore, faith and faithfulness are flip sides of the same coin -- even Christianity teaches that faith without works is dead. What kind of religion would teach forgiveness and salvation but didn't include a change of substance.

However, that's just my two cents worth.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The scene you refer to above deals with guilt, which not only is a really strong issue in Catholicism but also Judaism, as you well know. Maybe there should be a contest as to which is greater: Catholic guilt or Jewish guilt?

ROFL!!! Perhaps you are right!

 

[PureX]

My objective in this thread is to get Catholic/Christian feedback, and you have been kind enough to do so, so whatever else I say, please read it in the light of my appreciation.

I wonder if all Christians would agree with you. Doesn't it say something about being transformed?

For me, at least, if there is no repentance (meaning a return to God's ways) there is no forgiveness. Furthermore, faith and faithfulness are flip sides of the same coin -- even Christianity teaches that faith without works is dead. What kind of religion would teach forgiveness and salvation but didn't include a change of substance.

However, that's just my two cents worth.

That transformation is about and within US, not the offender. That's why we are admonished to forgive, and to keep forgiving, regardless of the offender's remorse, or lack of it. "As you forgive others, so shall you be forgiven". We forgive not to change or 'fix' the offender, but so that we can be forgiven, in turn. And it's through that forgiveness that we become free to be transformed. To transcend our sinful selves.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That transformation is about and within US, not the offender. That's why we are admonished to forgive, and to keep forgiving, regardless of the offender's remorse, or lack of it. "As you forgive others, so shall you be forgiven". We forgive not to change or 'fix' the offender, but so that we can be forgiven, in turn. And it's through that forgiveness that we become free to be transformed. To transcend our sinful selves.

Holding grudges eats away at our souls. Forgiveness is less for the benefit of the offender than for our own spiritual benefit -- it keeps the offender for continuing to hurt us and hurt us and hurt us.

However, unlike Christians, I draw from a Jewish book I read long ago that divides forgiveness into two types -- reconciliation, and letting go without reconciliation.

Reconciliation is when you return to the state of the relationship as it was before the offense. (In this case we are not talking about a mere slight, but a genuine betrayal, so let's get real about this.) One cannot reconcile a betrayal from an unrepentant betrayer. Indeed, a mere apology won't do either. The following conditions must be met:

1. They listen and come to understand in their hearts how much they have hurt you (and some people are not able to manage this sort of empathy).
2. They must then hurt because they have hurt you.
3. They must be willing to repair the wrong as much as they can (i.e. return the stolen money or correct the lie told, etc.).
4. They must resolve to never do this wrong again. In some cases this means to win back your trust over time (as is usually the case in adultery).
5. Then and only then is their apology worth two cents.

In the case of a betrayer who does not meet those requirements, not only is one not required to reconcile, but it would be immoral to expect so from the victim. Imagine requiring a child who is molested to reconcile with his or her molester!!! Yet to hold on the the anger and bitterness is crippling.

In such cases, you must simply "let go" of the need for justice. This doesn't mean you cannot support society's need for justice. It just isn't personal anymore -- you no longer have an emotional stake. This deprives the offender the capability of continuing to hurt you.

Before the Jewish High Holy Days, we have a time of reconciliation. We examine our lives, looking for wrongs we have done. We are to go to those we have offended and ask for forgiveness. We are to ask up to three times, and if they still do not forgive us, then it is upon them.

However, this need for the items of true reconciliation do come into play.

There is a story of a man who gossiped about his Rabbi, ruining his life since the rumors had spread far and wide. He went to his Rabbi and asked for forgiveness. The Rabbi chased him away. Later the man went back, humbled, and begged the Rabbi for forgiveness. But again the Rabbi chased him away.

A third time the man went to his Rabbi and begged and begged for forgiveness. "Rabbi, tell me what to do and I will do it. But just give me your forgiveness. I am truly sorry."

The Rabbi said to the man, "Go and bring me a feather pillow."

When the man had done so, the Rabbi instructed, "Now go and scatter the feathers all around the town.

The man thought this was rather odd, but as he had said, he was willing to do anything for forgiveness, so he scattered the feathers here, there, and everywhere. Then he returned to his Rabbi.

"Now," said the Rabbi, "I want you to go and gather up every last feather you have scattered."

The man's heart sank in despair. "Rabbi, I cannot do so. No matter how hard I try, there will be some feathers I will miss."

The Rabbi replied, "It is the same with your evil words. If you go about trying to correct your lies, they have spread far and wide. You will not be able to find every person that has been corrupted by your lashon hara, your evil tongue. You have destroyed me, and now you cannot fix it."

The man's eyes were opened, and he saw for the first time how great the damage was that he had done. He collapsed into a chair and put his head into his hands. "Rabbi," he said, "I can't ask for your forgiveness. All I can say is that I will never do this again, not to you or anyone else."

"Then," replied the Rabbi, "I forgive you."