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Featured Catholicism/Sunni Islam can be compared (devotion culture bad) , Protestant culture is different

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Richerd92, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Meaning that, when something has turned extreme. It is mainly because of devotion cultures.

    Devotion culture main idea is full control on the country or regimes. It also stagnates development, progress and anti scientific. Want proof? Islam worked well because fundamentalism wasnt set yet. Think it was in 1100 AD when fundamentalism kicked in, and scientific progress stopped. They tolerated science but some guy said Science will make people go away from God. And there you have it today

    Catholicism from 400 - 1500 AD hasnt done anything. If you want proof. Compare 1700 - 2000 AD. See how much development has happend in that short time span?

    Reason is devotion cultures are heavy on getting to heaven, doing this and that, enforcing it. While protestantism is just "Believe in Jesus and you'll be saved. Thats it" it allows you to breath, to think. Devotion cultures stagnates and is objectively bad. So its reason why sunni islam isnt doing the islamic world much favors here. Sure religious cultures can reform but the roots of it has troubles same with Catholicism. If a culture turns into something better... now that is something else.

    But i am optimistic about Tunisia turning more into a democracy though
     
  2. Gargovic Malkav

    Gargovic Malkav Active Member

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    What about communities such as the Amish and ascetic monks? They can be very devout, but I wouldn't call them inherently toxic. Besides that, I don't see better technology as a standard for a better world. Our technological improvements made us more powerful you could say. But with great power comes great responsibility. If our sense of responsibility doesn't evolve as quickly as our technological improvements, our scientific discoveries may actually turn from a blessing into a curse.
     
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  3. Gargovic Malkav

    Gargovic Malkav Active Member

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    Welcome to RF btw! :)
     
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  4. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there seems little doubt that the European Enlightenment came about largely due to the new mood of questioning which the Protestant Reformation ushered in. The invention of the printing press (which took place earlier), was, however the most crucial step, I think. This led to a democratisation of information, whether it be the bible in the vernacular or other writings. The Church, which in the Medieval period had had more or less a monopoly on written information, lost that dominance, and the ability of people to circulate typed pamphlets and so on encouraged challenge.

    However it is a bit of a sweeping statement to say that there was no progress in Christendom between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Reformation.
     
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  5. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I totally agree. And btw in 1870 the RCC lost any temporal power for at least 60 years (until the creation of the Vatican which btw is the tiniest state in the world).
     
  6. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing more stagnating than fundamentalism and literalism which does not apply to the Catholic Church.
     
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  7. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Holidays!
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    Protestantism is just as capable of being controlling, contrary to science, and culturally stagnant as Catholicism or Islam. Their "devotion culture" centers around the Bible and often around individual pastors or other faith leaders.
     
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  8. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    Attempting not to be reactionary, or of binary thinking, my take would revolve around the collapse of Classical Civilization and the shift toward the Dark Ages, and not necessarily "devotion".

    During the Dark Ages, there was no education, and all the books in the great halls of ancient libraries were all confiscated by conquerors and the people of Europe were literally thrown back into the stone age. Constant tribal battles pursued, there was no more education, and all previous knowledge from the great philosophers and thinkers of Classical Civilization was lost.

     
    #8 Cooky, Oct 29, 2020
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  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    There is something called the 'Enlightenment Period' in European History. This is presaged by the Renaissance which is a combination of things. The Renaissance includes skepticism or the belief that certainty is impossible for humans. This causes it to resonate not with Scholasticism but with philosophy and the ideas which are formative for Catholics and present in NT writings. Its the beginning of questioning and lights off multiple reformations, only one of which is called 'The' Reformation, usually marked by Martin Luther's actions in 1514CE. After that the Renaissance continues, and there are also further reformations. The Renaissance would have been and was considered backsliding by Roman Catholics, by Protestants and by Muslims. All of them were somewhat strict and opposed to skepticism. Even today they are very often harsh about skeptics, but skepticism is what allows all of them to exist politically speaking. The idea that nobody can be sure about everything is a form of humility, and that I think is the key which unlocks everything else.
    For reference: The Precursors to The Enlightenment
     
    #9 Brickjectivity, Oct 29, 2020
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  10. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    I think living in mud and straw huts, and weaving baskets and making bowls out of clay must have become boring after hundreds of years... That, and conquering neighboring tribes was a pretty stale lifestyle.

    Like starting over again, the excitement of new "smart" ideas must have felt great.
     
  11. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    It's different because it allows anything in and no way to fix it. With it, of course, comes development, but it's highly debatable whether development is always a good thing.
     
  12. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Some false myths here.

    Even the so-called Dark Ages (loosely from 400 to 1000 or so) were not really dark. That is a centuries-old view that is out of date:
    "As the accomplishments of the era came to be better understood in the 19th and 20th centuries, scholars began restricting the "Dark Ages" appellation to the Early Middle Ages (c. 5th–10th century),[6][7][8] and now scholars also reject its usage in this period.[9] The majority of modern scholars avoid the term altogether due to its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate.[10][11][12] Petrarch's pejorative meaning remains in use,[1][2][13] typically in popular culture which often mischaracterises the Middle Ages as a time of violence and backwardness.[14"

    From: Dark Ages (historiography) - Wikipedia

    I once attended Easter Sunday Mass in Charlemagne's chapel in Aachen, built in 800. It is a magnificent building.

    All Europe's great gothic cathedrals were built between 1100 and 1500. The skill of medieval stonemasons has never been surpassed.

    Medieval towns had a lot of half-timber architecture, something like Old Rouen: Explore the treasures of Rouen Old Town - French Moments . Not mud and straw huts.

    What is true is that under the feudal system a lot of people in the countryside were peasants. They would have lived in fairly primitive huts in the early period, though later even these people lived in timber buildings: Peasant homes in medieval England - Wikipedia
     
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  13. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    There's no reason to glorify the horrors of the Dark Ages, by re-writing history, unless our goal is to defend our tribal ancestors.

    The Gothic cathedrals were constructed by the remaining remnants of old knowledge handed down from the Classical civilization... In the meantime, barbarian lands were overrun by illiterates, who who didn't understand stone masonry, and were so dumb, their "trial by ordeals" consisted of throwing an accused person into a pit of hot coals. If they could escape alive, that meant they were innocent... That's about as dumb as man can get... It's "cave-man" dumb.

    Trial by ordeal - Wikipedia

    ...The civilizations of philosophers and intellectuals that predated them, were far more advanced.
     
    #13 Cooky, Oct 29, 2020
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  14. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    Actually, the year 536 was indeed the "darkest" year in human history... Literally...

    And was the worst year that has ever been recorded.
     
  15. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Neither Rome nor Greece had anything remotely approaching the sophistication of Gothic architecture.
     
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  16. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    What,? You've gotten it totally backwards. Fundamentalism and puritanicalism are more prominent features of Protestantism. The Catholic Church has been a major patron of science and the arts for centuries, before Protestantism even existed. It's the same in Islam. The jihadist groups are fundamentalist, puritanical types and obsessed with iconoclasm.
     
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  17. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    Gothic cathedrals are quite beautiful, but I think you're exaggerating.
     
  18. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Look at the heights they were able to reach, the ornate tracery of the designs and, above all, the small amount of stone used (above ground), compared to the windows. The Romans never managed anything close to that delicacy of construction - let alone the Greeks of course, who didn't even have the arch.
     
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  19. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    I think we can see where Gothic architecture is drawn from...
    Byzantine architecture:
    b80358502d16d1fc1f9e3f2b96211702--byzantine-art-byzantine-mosaics.jpg

    Gothic architecture:
    Interior-France-Reims-Cathedral.jpg
     
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  20. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    It's not a fair comparison because those cultures were centuries removed from each other. (At least the Romans weren't wallowing in filth like Middle Age Northern Europeans were, though.) It's like if I said that Gothic architecture has nothing on us today because of what we're able to build with modern technology.
     
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