Catholicism is quite Jewish

[Spiderman]

The only real sermons on Catholicism I find interesting anymore are Jewish Converts to Catholicism like Rosalind Moss, Sister Miriam Wurm, Deacon Bob fishman, and members of the Hebrew Catholic rite who argue that they converted because Catholicism is more Jewish in it's traditions than modern Judaism. They claim this because at the Catholic Mass there are more Jewish traditions than one will see at a synagogue.

(Since they are now Catholic in faith, they believe at the mass there is a priest, a victim, an altar, and a sacrifice...each which were a huge part of Jewish tradition that is no longer practiced within Judaism. Some of the Catholic Churches and Cathedrals feel more sacred like the magnificent temple of Solomon to them as well.)

As disgusting as the Church's wealth is, the big hats, the golden vessels, Golden Miters and vestments, and the ostentatious robes, thuribles, burning incense and magnificent structure are also found in the Old Testament as well.

Exodus 2 "These are the garments they are to make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a woven tunic, a turban and a sash. They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests. 5 Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen.

6 “Make the ephod of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen—the work of skilled hands. 7 It is to have two shoulder pieces attached to two of its corners, so it can be fastened. 8 Its skillfully woven waistband is to be like it—of one piece with the ephod and made with gold, and with blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and with finely twisted linen.

15 “Fashion a breastpiece for making decisions—the work of skilled hands. Make it like the ephod: of gold...mount four rows of precious jewels on it. Mount them in gold filigree settings. 21 There are to be twelve stones, one for each of the names of the sons of Israel.

22 “For the breastpiece make braided chains of pure gold, like a rope. 23 Make two gold rings for it and fasten them to two corners of the breastpiece. 24 Fasten the two gold chains...36 “Make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it as on a seal"...

So God totally wanted these people to be decked out in gold, Jewels, fine -linen, and big hats when they worshipped...

The temple of Solomon was also covered in disgusting amounts of gold that could have fed all the starving people in the world lol

The Catholic Church's use of carved images as instruments of grace was practiced by the Jews and were not only mandatory but essentail for their survival, and God worked miracles through and spoke to them through graven images of bronze and gold LOL!

Holding up the Crucifix on the pole and believing grace can be channeled through it is prefigured through the Serpent on the pole in the book of Numbers:

John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up.

Old Testament priests burned copious amounts of incense:

The ancient Israelites were not only commanded to kill the lamb and put it's blood on their doorpost. They were also required to eat the lamb. That is where the tradition of the Eucharist comes from (as well as the feast of unleavened bread [Passover], considered a prefigurement of the mass and last supper).

The sacrificial lamb, the altar, the Tabernacle as well, all come from Jewish tradition

Bishops wear yarmulkas

And there is even a Catholic Version of the menorah, only different number

Catholicism also has some similarities with Islam. Consecrated Religious wear robes which come from bedouin Arabic tradition, a type of Hijab, pray with prayer beads, pray on their face and kiss the floor.

Muslim prayer beads:

Catholic Rosary

 

[Spiderman]

The fish hats aren't Jewish

The Pope wears a fish hat cuz Peter, the first Pope was a fishermen

The big hats resemble what levites used to wear :

Today is the sixth of the month and on the sixth of each month (in honor of the six points of the Star of David ) I honor and summon the assembly of Israelites, chant psalms and burn incense to Jews all day (those who have gone to the Kingdom of Israel up above )

I sleep beneath an Israeli flag and wear one when I pray. I recommend wearing an Israeli flag when you pray because their flag is not just a flag. It's a Hebrew prayer shawl.

It attracts the Jewish Spirit people .

Ann Frank is my buddy. Patron Saint of writing

 

[Spiderman]

Another similarity to Judaism is the Catholic Church has an Ark of the Covenant. The Blessed Virgin Mary is called the "Ark of the New Covenant ".

The ark of the covenant carried God and the word on stone tablets. Mary carried within her the " word made flesh ".

The ark carried the manna (bread from heaven). She carried the bread of life.

The Ark carried the high -priests Staff. Mary carried the high priest.

There are lots of Old Testament prefigurements like that.

That Papal miter has the star of David.

It's pretty stupid for Catholics to be antisemetic when they worship a Jew who chose twelve Jews as Apostles, pray to old testament prophets, follow and venerate a book written entirely by Jews, and practice more Jewish traditions than any other Religion on earth (including modern Judaism ). Lol

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

No its not

Jews consider catholicism to be polytheistic

 

[Tumah]

Oh goodness, where do I start?

 

[Spiderman]

No its not

Jews consider catholicism to be polytheistic

That would depend on the Jew. Paul, the Apostles, and many of the original followers of Christ were Jewish.

Some of the Jews I know including members of "Hebrew Catholic " see Catholicism as the most Jewish Religion on earth.

Catholicism teaches monotheism, that there is one God, but that he comes to us in different forms.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No its not

Jews consider catholicism to be polytheistic

And the ones who believe that are wrong. I am not a polytheist.

 

[Spiderman]

Oh goodness, where do I start?

Easy does it my Israeli brotha! You have to have a sense of humour with us gentile dogs

 

[Spiderman]

consider catholicism to be polytheistic

Do you consider Catholicism polytheistic? I'm a bit polytheistic at times but that is because im open-minded and don't let a Church or Ancient text overrule my heart or conscience.

The Catholic Faith isn't polytheistic at all however, and I'd love to debate that with you , because it is an easy point to prove

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Do you consider Catholicism polytheistic? I'm a bit polytheistic at times but that is because im open-minded and don't let a Church or Ancient text overrule my heart or conscience.

The Catholic Faith isn't polytheistic at all however, and I'd love to debate that with you , because it is an easy point to prove

Yes, and u consider Islam to be pagan


Each differs in opinions

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Umm. I'm with @Tumah where do I start? Well, I'm not well versed and I'm not Jewish; but, I do know a couple of things that stuck out either because they are bluntly wrong or miscued because of lack of connecting OT, NT, Roman, and Catholic history together.

6 “Make the ephod of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen—the work of skilled hands. 7 It is to have two shoulder pieces attached to two of its corners, so it can be fastened. 8 Its skillfully woven waistband is to be like it—of one piece with the ephod and made with gold, and with blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and with finely twisted linen...

Christianity is based on the Jew Testimony, on the w-ords of Jesus disciples, not on Judaism, the w-ords of Moses from God. Jewish traditions and practices in the OT are not practices uphold by Jesus' disciples. So, in other words, basically you're making Catholicism a non-christian faith. It's not Jewish. So....

So God totally wanted these people to be decked out in gold, Jewels, fine -linen, and big hats when they worshipped...

As long as these Jewels and fine -linen do not override worship in Christ, you can wear a beach hat and sun glasses and still be one with Christ. These are traditions. Traditions are one with the word; they are not the word (aka. Not mandatory to believe in god) Unless Catholics are saying they are "old fashion" Hebrews that would be punished if they didn't put their own child on a block of stone in sacrifice? That is what god told of Abraham. It is tradition for sacrifice. What makes this sacrifice different than that of one giving alms, repenting, confession, consecration, and celebrating sacrifice in communion?

As for Judaism, I believe it is mandatory for traditions to be upheld. But remember Christians are following the words of Christ. Christ set different and changed traditions than that of the Levites and what god told them they have authority to do that Hebrews could not do.

Also, I think you're separating Catholicism from being Christianity because you're using a Jewish foundation (God) to mirror Catholic traditions that are built on Christ; and, Jews don't believe Christ is god so that alone separates Jews and Judaism from Catholicism and mainstream Christianity.

Mathew 15:1-20

Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if a man says to his father and mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men’.”

10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean’.”

I'm sure you read this before and as a rebuttal, but it's worth repeating but I haven't expressed it since I'm not against Catholics.

By "washing your hands" literally before performing concentration may be Jewish but if Catholicism is Christian then, because you follow Jesus not the Laws (all 613 I think) of Moses, the Catholic Church attention I'd think be more focused on practicing what's behind the traditions rather than using traditions to replace spiritual development and life in Christ. If that be the case, would you still be Christian if there were no Mass and no Eucharist left on earth?

The temple of Solomon was also covered in disgusting amounts of gold that could have fed all the starving people in the world lol

Remember in the Ten Commandments (sorry, can't think of the chapter/verse) where God rained down thunder bolts and tore all the gold and idols made by the people Moses was trying to save? Who was Moses trying to save? Why was he angry at them? and even more so, if Catholics are replaying these acts, would god approve of it? Why? and how? Moses didn't....why would god?

The Catholic Church's use of carved images as instruments of grace was practiced by the Jews and were not only mandatory but essentail for their survival, and God worked miracles through and spoke to them through graven images of bronze and gold LOL!

Mandatory back then for their survival. Does Christ say these things are mandatory? Did Paul? God works miracles without these things. Are you limiting god within the physical means by which you worship? Connecting tradition and spirituality is one thing. However, connecting two separate religions together because they believe in the same god and somewhat have the same Bible is odd. Even more so, Roman Catholicism is even more of a stretch because you have the pagan traditions (aka native traditions of Rome) mixed in (Pharisees) and the Jewish traditions (that were laid out by Moses) to which Christ said in the former (and scripture above) "you are saying this is literal and this physical thing makes you close to god when you look at god before you do tradition" type of thing. The latter, he bluntly told the Jews they were not following god because of their traditions.

If Catholicism is Christian, why would they contradict themselves and base their teachings and morals on Jewish roots? Yes, the history may overlap and even some Muslim but once you go out of Christ and the apostle's words, it is no longer Christian. If not Christian, and of course not Jewish, what is Catholicism?

Holding up the Crucifix on the pole and believing grace can be channeled through it is prefigured through the Serpent on the pole in the book of Numbers:

And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up.

Old Testament priests burned copious amounts of incense:

This goes with the tradition comment above. I understand why Catholics do what they do but to say it is appropriated from Jewish traditions is like saying "oh, we killed the Jews for X then later on, we decide to take their traditions and make them in to ours" maybe feeling guilty for what they have done?

The meaning and practice is beautiful but to tie it together is an insult.

The ancient Israelites were not only commanded to kill the lamb and put it's blood on their doorpost. They were also required to eat the lamb. That is where the tradition of the Eucharist comes from (as well as the feast of unleavened bread [Passover], considered a prefigurement of the mass and last supper).

The sacrificial lamb, the altar, the Tabernacle as well, all come from Jewish tradition

Yes, true. True. Levites had special rules to take care of the sacrifce and so on and so forth.

Big difference.

Jews actually ate the animals they sacrifice

Are you actually eating Jesus' body, bones, finger nails, and eye balls?
Are you drinking Jesus white and blood cells, DNA, etc

If yes, that's completely opposite of what all priest tell me and I don't remember it in the Catechism. If not, it is not Judaism. They actually ate the animals. Catholics are physically and literally eating bread and wine. The former is sacrifice traditions from god. The latter are sacrifice and traditions from Christ.

Big difference.

Also, Christ being god doesn't clear things up. It actually makes it worse since Jews don't believe Christ is god; so, that makes me think, how can Catholicism be based on something that Jews have no relations with? In other words, you both see the nature of god differently, how do you expect a Jew to react when you tell him god/Christ gave Catholics rules to wear certain clothes that Jews believed (like traditions) god (not Christ) told them specifically to wear?

 

[Spiderman]

Yes, and u consider Islam to be pagan


Each differs in opinions

I don't consider Islam pagan...what on earth would lead anyone to such an asinine conclusion ?

 

[Tumah]

That would depend on the Jew. Paul, the Apostles, and many of the original followers of Christ were Jewish.

Some of the Jews I know including members of "Hebrew Catholic " see Catholicism as the most Jewish Religion on earth.

Catholicism teaches monotheism, that there is one God, but that he comes to us in different forms.

Ah yes, the star of David. Slap that on your stuff and its 100% authentic Judaism straight out of G-d's mouth.

The fact that its originators were Jewish doesn't lend it any authenticity today. In its original form, it may have been nothing more than another upstart sect. But today its wayyyy beyond anything comparable to Judaism.

For one thing, all the items you've brought here on the thread there is not even one that is actually fulfilling a Jewish commandment. There is no commandment for a non-Jewish priest (or non-priestly class Jew) to wear special priestly clothing no matter how similar it is to the Jewish priests garments. There is no commandment to light a replica of the lamp lit in the Temple. Its actually forbidden for Jews to build an altar outside the Temple (although since there's no actual sacrifice, I'm not sure yours technically is that). No one ever bowed to or kissed the cherubim or the snake. In fact, the snake was destroyed when people started to do that.

On the other hand, Jewish commandments are to wear a fringe garment and phylacteries, put up a mezuzah, keep the Sabbath (on Saturday), collect the four species on Tabernacles, to live in a hut for the duration of Tabernacles, to keep the festivals of Tabernacles, Passover and Weeks, refrain from eating leavened bread and to eat leavened bread for the duration of Passover, to count 49 days between the first day of Passover and the Festival of Weeks, to circumcise our children on the 8th day, eat only kosher animals, to have children, to keep the New Year, to keep the Day of Atonement, not to cross-bread plants and animals, to take a portion of dough every time one makes bread - for the priest, to take a portion of grains wine and oil for the priest and another tenth for the Levite, to separate from one's wife during menstruation and to ritually immerse afterwards and the list goes on. All of which are practiced today.

So for some odd reason, in the minds of these heretics, its more Jewish to make up new customs based on commandments that never related to them in the first place, then to actually follow the explicit Law that G-d commanded.

"Sacrificing" a person on an altar outside of the Temple while wearing fancy clothes that may or may not have a star of David, in a fancy building is not Judaism in any way.

No. Catholicism isn't anymore Jewish than any of the other Abrahamic religions. A mild similarity and some shared names. Nothing more.

 

[Spiderman]

@Carlita
My point is the traditions come from Judaism, not that there aren't big difference in the New Covenant.

It isn't an old testament Religion, or following the precepts of the old covenant (which didn't include gentiles. )

Bottom line is, it is a Religion founded by a Jew, based on a book written by Jews, hence many of the traditions are Jewish.

The Religion contains a different covenant and sacrifice, therefore it is a different Religion, but kept many traditions and contains much prefigurements from the Old Testament.

Regarding eating the lamb, the Church teaches that the entirety of Christ is contained in the Eucharist.

 

[Spiderman]

@Tumah
And I've heard Hebrew Catholics give a long list of reasons Modern Judaism isn't keeping with Jewish tradition either.

Thank God they don't stone adulterers in Israel.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand that. Here is the issue, though:

Bottom line is, it is a Religion founded by a Jew, based on a book written by Jews, hence many of the traditions are Jewish.

It is a religion founded by god (not Christ).
Jews believe in god (not Christ)
So, how can Catholicism base their traditions on Judaism when the whole of Judaism has nothing to do with Christ? Having the same history doesn't mean they have the same traditions since traditions are spiritually, not all history is.

The Religion contains a different covenant and sacrifice, therefore it is a different Religion, but kept many traditions and contains much prefigurements from the Old Testament.

Hence, since it's a different religion, the traditions are not Jewish. They are a Christian interpretation and implementing the traditions of Judaism to fit the teachings of Christ. In Mass, we geneflect to the Eucharist. Jews give reverence (I don't know how, can't remember from the other thread), but the Arch covernant and Torah.

Because they are different religions, Catholicism cannot claim to follow Jewish traditions because Jewish traditions within Judaism are completely different and founded on a different nature of god than Christianity.

If you say historically, may be. However, the Romans (such as Paul) had some play into that interpretation as well.

Regarding eating the lamb, the Church teaches that the entirety of Christ is contained in the Eucharist.

Are you eating Jesus' finger nails, feet, and eye lashes?
Are you drinking his white and red blood cells?

If so, I'd think maybe you have a different view of the Eucharist that the Church, priest, and Catechism does.

If not, it is not Judaism. It is not a tradition from Judaism. It isn't Jewish.

They actually ate the animal they sacrificed. Consecration of the food and drink (real food and drink) isn't the same as transubsatiation of making the food and drink and actual person. That, and can you see Jesus when you take the Eucharist?

It's a fact that Jesus is in the Eucharist. It is not literal. Very different.

 

[Spiderman]

The Church teaches it is literally Christ.

I'm not saying that such a belief is anything in the old covenant , but the old covenant grain offering, lamb, alter, priest, victim, sin-offering, and sacrifice prefigurered the lamb of God , Eucharist, and the mass.

But the New Covenant is considered the fulfilment. The old covenant contained signs of what was to come but was not identical, hence the word "New".

But actually Judaism has a lot to do with Catholic tradition and Catholicism because that is where Catholicism traces itself back to.

It is sort of like an evolved reborn form of Judaism... Like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@PopeADope

Here is something I found on the New Vatican Document Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Catholics are called to witness to their faith in Jesus before all people, including Jews, but the Catholic Church "neither conducts nor supports" any institutional missionary initiative directed toward Jews, says a new document from a Vatican commission.

How God will save the Jews if they do not explicitly believe in Christ is "an unfathomable divine mystery," but one which must be affirmed since Catholics believe that God is faithful to his promises and therefore never revoked his covenant with the Jewish people, it says.
​

We know the religions are different. Why would Catholics take Jewish traditions into their Church when they don't even look kindly on the religion those traditions are made up of?

Your OP looks for meaning behind the traditions not just "Jews wore purple so Catholics wear purple" that's fine and all. But once you say sorry, other way around (Catholics are foundation of Judaism or Jewish traditions), then that goes amuck because both of you base your traditions on the different nature of god. Unless Catholics don't believe Christ is god, that will always put a wrench in topics like this.

 

[Tumah]

@Tumah
And I've heard Hebrew Catholics give a long list of reasons Modern Judaism isn't keeping with Jewish tradition either.

Thank God they don't stone adulterers in Israel.

That's hardly an answer.

Who should stone them?

 

[Spiderman]

That's hardly an answer.

Who should stone them?

Point being, most Jews these days agree that some of the practices in the old testament are outdated and not meant for the 21st century