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Can you answer my post?About the afterlife?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, Sep 15, 2019.

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What is better?Abraham's Bosom?Or soul sleep?

This poll will close on Sep 15, 2020 at 5:59 PM.
  1. Abraham's Bosom

    2 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Soul Sleep

    2 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    Officially methodist.But goes back and forth between the idea of the soul with methodism and jehovah's witness.
    What is better abraham's bosom.Or Soul Sleep?I lean more to soul sleep.But I think if it works the other way that works for me.Because I am not fully dead I don't know which one is right.But when die I will know for a fact which is right.:)
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    If it's "soul sleep," how will you know anything at all?
     
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  3. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    I will know if soul sleep is right when I am resurrected.Like in Daniel 12:2.
     
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  4. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Neither is right. You will experience, after the death of your body, neither more nor less than you experienced before the existence of your body. And as you desperately cast your memory backwards, you'll discover what that was. Just ask yourself, what were your experiencing, what was you existence about, when Socrates wrote, when Pilate was Governor, when the Renaissance was happening, when Victoria was Queen?

    That's what you'll know after you die...
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What do you think "Abraham's bosom" is?

    You know that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, don't you?
    This is not a literal scenario. This parable is about the Pharisees in Jesus' day and the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent.
    The Jews had the favored position with God originally, which is what the bosom of Abraham means...having God's favor like Abraham did. When reclining at a meal, the most favored one was the one who was closest to the bosom of the one reclining on the couch with him. The apostle John occupied that position at Jesus' last Passover. (John 13:23, 15; John 21:20)

    Lazarus pictured the spiritually starved Jews whom the Pharisees treated with contempt.
    Their deaths meant a change in status. They actually swapped places.....the "lost sheep" were found and rescued by the Fine Shepherd and now occupied the favored position with God and his son. The Pharisees were now in a spiritual "no man's land". (Matthew 23:37-39)

    It is not to be taken literally because heaven and hell are not within speaking distance to one another (something you will not find taught in scripture) and a drop of water on someone's finger is hardly going to cool anyone's tongue in a burning fire.

    Jesus raised the dead, including his friend Lazarus (who has no connection to the parable. Both Lazarus and Jesus were common names in the first century) Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? Read the account in John 11:11-14 and see....Jesus said he was "sleeping". Who do you believe?
     
    #5 Deeje, Sep 15, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  6. swanlake

    swanlake New Member

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    So, really...it’s not ‘when you die’, that you’ll know; it’s after your resurrection that you’ll find out. Along w/ millions of others....”all those in the Memorial tombs.” John 5:28-29.
     
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  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I prefer to be conscious.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe in reincarnation so I doubt anyone sleeps for that long.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I can believe one does not need to take a story literally but usually a story is based on facts. So it does not matter that it is unlikely a person can hear a human voice (not something a dead person can do) or whether a drop of water can assuage a thirsty dead body but whether one is in a desired place and the other is in a place of torment.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It was a parable...."a heavenly story with an earthly meaning" according to what I was taught at Sunday School. If you read it in context, it is surrounded by other parables.

    It's application was very pertinent to the situation regarding the religious position of the Pharisees and how they saw themselves, contrasted with how they viewed the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. They changed places. It wasn't a story about heaven and hell, but about who God favored and why.
     
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  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I will grant that Heaven and Hell are not mentioned but the concept of punishment in a hot place and reward in a good place is there in the story. When the context of Heaven and Hell is considered this appears to fall within that context. So my question for you is what do you view the torment as and what is it like in the bosom of Abraham?
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Reward and punishment are spoken about throughout the Bible without heaven or hell being mentioned.
    When Israel obeyed their Creator and kept a strict watch on their worship so as not to introduce anything foreign from the pagan nations around them, they were blessed and prospered....BUT, when they strayed and adopted religious practices that God forbade, he punished then, sometimes very severely. Their captivity in Babylon was one such time. When the older generation who had incurred God's disfavor died out, a new generation was repatriated back to their homeland and a rebuilding work commenced. It didn't really go to plan initially but eventually it did and the temple and city were rebuilt.

    Israel were never good at honoring their covenant with Jehovah on a long term basis....but he always kept to his part of the bargain....and after many events of punishment and repentance, his Messiah finally arrived at the appointed time. After being given first opportunity to become disciples of the Christ, the nation as a whole rejected their Messiah and was thereafter rejected by God, who chose a new nation of 'spiritual' Israel. (Galatians 6:16; Matthew 23:37-39) This new nation was made up of both Jews and Gentiles who accepted Jesus as the Savior sent by God to redeem faithful humans.

    It was Jesus' words to the Pharisees about "gehenna" that sparked the notion of a fiery destination after death....but Jesus never intended that his words be taken literally.

    When you have translators who render various Bible words as "hell", you come to see that inaccurate translation has been used to perpetuate a lie.....firstly that there is life immediately after death by some shadowy conscious part of humans that separates from the body at death (not a Jewish teaching) and secondly that those in "gehenna" (hell) are enduring sever pain consciously in a place of eternal suffering.

    Ecclesiastes reveals that the dead are in an unconscious state. So do the Psalms. (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10; Psalm 146:4; Psalm 115:17) The grave is a place where there is no activity, planning, wisdom, or even any emotions. It is a place of silence. Nowhere in scripture is there mention of an immortal soul. Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4) Living, breathing creatures are souls. the word never means a disembodied spirit.

    A person can only be tormented whilst still alive, so the torment that Jesus caused the Pharisees made them 'weep and gnash their teeth' at him because he exposed them as hypocritical frauds. He condemned them to "gehenna" not "hell".
    The "bosom of Abraham" was the position of favor with God. The Pharisees lost it....the spiritual "beggars" whom the Pharisees treated with contempt, as unworthy of their attention, gained God's favor by accepting Jesus as Messiah....they changed places. What greater reason could there be for their murderous anger? The despised "lost sheep" were being fed by the Fine Shepherd and led out of that contaminated pen and into a clean one, with bountiful supplies of good healthy "food".

    Gehenna was the Valley of Hinnom, Jerusalem's rubbish dump just outside the city walls where the carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were often cast into the flames for disposal. The fires of gehenna were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulfur). The thought conveyed by this was that the ones who ended up in gehenna were not worthy of a decent burial and therefore not worthy of a resurrection. Having no tomb, or remains to bury, these ones, it was assumed, would be forgotten by God in the resurrection. It was symbolic of eternal death, not eternal suffering. Souls are "destroyed" in gehenna....not tortured. (Matthew 10:28)

    The Valley of Hinnom was the place where apostate Israel conducted the heinous practice of child sacrifice to a foreign god. How did God respond to their activities?....

    Jeremiah 7:30-31...
    "‘For the people of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ declares Jehovah. ‘They have set up their disgusting idols in the house that bears my name, in order to defile it. 31 They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’"

    If God thought burning your children in a fire was 'bad in his eyes', then why would he do that to his own children?

    The scriptures tell us that God only rewards the righteous with everlasting life......but the wicked will "perish".
    In order to punish the wicked forever, God would also have to grant them everlasting life because only the living can suffer. If one perishes, they are wiped out of existence. Gehenna is eternal death...the very opposite of eternal life.

    That is how I understand the scriptures.
     
    #12 Deeje, Sep 24, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
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