Oh, of course I take the pill. So far my diseases have been incurable, so I always like to prove "pill doctors" wrong. And when I am wrong I am better.
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Oh, of course I take the pill. So far my diseases have been incurable, so I always like to prove "pill doctors" wrong. And when I am wrong I am better.
What do any of these have to do with God?This thread is the start of a discussion between @Trailblazer and I about Proofs. What are the proofs that God exists, that a prophet is who He says He is, or that He is a Messenger of God? Are there really any proofs at all or is it all an illusion and wishful thinking at best and delusion at worst?
Bahá’ís believe God has inspired Divine Teachers with laws and teachings for mankind in each age. In the past there have been many Prophets and Messengers. How do we know whether any of these past Messengers were really from God?
I believe there are several proofs which can used to demonstrate the truth of such a claim. These proofs can be used to demonstrate the truth of great Teachers of the past such as Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ and Muhammad and more recently Bahá'u’lláh.
So what are these proofs of the truth of any Manifestation of God?
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1. His Character
According to Bahá'u’lláh the 'first and foremost testimony' of a Messenger of God is 'His own Self'. The Manifestation of God has a dual nature consisting of both a divine station and a human station. For example He may show innate knowledge from childhood and from an early age be renowned for Their extraordinary wisdom. The religious leaders of the day may find themselves unable rival Him.
He may always the friend of those in need and be detached from the worldly pursuits. Instead He may accept a life of persecution, imprisonment or poverty in the path of God. From His lowly state He may fearlessly address the religious and worldly rulers proclaiming His Mission, calling upon them to be just and fair to their people.
2. His Revelation
The laws and teachings brought by the Manifestation of God are the next proof. They identify God to
be the origin of this Revelation rather than Themselves. Such Teachings are like those from a Divine Physician who has His pulse on the finger of mankind. In His unerring wisdom He proclaims the remedy of the age in which They live.
3. His verses
The verses (words) revealed by the Manifestations of God are different from those of men. They are the 'Word of God'. They have great spiritual power and change the hearts of men. They possess a special beauty and eloquence.
4. The martyrs
When God sends a new Teacher to mankind detached pure-hearted souls seek Him out. They become so inspired and transformed that they readily and joyfully sacrifice their wealth, position and even their lives in the path of God.
5. The repudiation
Christ was persecuted by the clergy and the rulers of His day. The same happened to Muhammad and to every Manifestation of God.
6. The two-fold sign
Many of of us know of the star which signaled the birth of Jesus and of John the Baptist who spoke of Him. Bahá’u’lláh says that every Manifestation of God is announced by one sign in the physical heaven (e.g. a star or comet) and another sign in the spiritual heaven (eg Matthew 24:29).
7. Prophecies Fulfilled
All the Manifestations of God are part of one Plan and each one foretells the coming of the next.
8. Future Events Foretold
The Manifestations of God may make prophecies of future events.
9. Miracles
While the Manifestations of God may perform many miraculous deeds we should be cautious with this proof as theyare only proofs for those who see and but not so much for those who hear them second-hand.
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So are these 'proofs' of any value? Why do you believe what you do and is evidence or proof important?
I'm not looking for an argument or to push my Baha'i beliefs on anybody, just respectful courteous discussion. Thanks again for your thoughts and comments.
“Faith” in the sense of “believing something without good reason” not only has no value; it’s actually a failing.If there were proof, whst value is there to faith?
The criteria seem reasonable though in the final analysis it is for God to test His servants and not for man to test God.
Deuteronomy 6:16, Luke 4:12
What does that mean? If you were sincere in your quest to seek out the answer to any spiritual matter concerning the God of Abraham you would need to consider the following verses from a Christian perspective:
Matthew 18:2-4, Matthew 19:24, John 8:32 and Matthew 25:31-46
From a Baha'i perspective the following verses would be applicable:
No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.
The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favor, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.
The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library
So if its an argument you seek to prove atheism right and Christianity wrong they are sensible criteria and you are well eqipped to take on the Christian apologists.
If its the truth you seek then I would encourage a modified approach.
“Faith” in the sense of “believing something without good reason” not only has no value; it’s actually a failing.
“Faith” in the sense of “loyalty” isn’t incompatible with proof.
The answer was rhetorical from one's perspective.
How do you know if the pill is fake? You don't. But who owns the responsibility to prove that the pill is real?
brother i think every religion exists for a reason .if reincarnation is true then it offers a milder way of punishing vs a full blown hell sentence to eternity for 1 lifes action , and if reincarnation is true even so opting for Abraham will not fail you .. each soul is where it needs to be and the lessons it needs to learn . you might come in a new religion in your next life for new lessons / experience to enjoy.
and that why since ages Hinduism says all paths are valid.- coz even if u failed to get complete knowledge or lessons in 1 life u may come back. fair and just, with no fear based worship but tendency based worship.
In Christianity (since we're talking about "faith" as a virtue, which tends to be a specifically Christian idea), faith used to refer to loyalty to God ("faithfulness") and not to mere acceptance of God's existence without evidence; that came later.How does that relate to faith in a god.
It was a total non response,
and if you think trying to go socratic is
a proper response, I dont.
Of course it depepends on the circumstances;
IF I had "disesases" and IF there were a pill that
could cure "diseases" and IF the pill were to be
offered under legit circumstances. And
IF turtles could fly.
You have no answer, so lets drop this.
What do any of these have to do with God?
I mean, how do you start with any of them (or all of them) and get to “therefore, this person is a messenger of God?”
“Faith” in the sense of “believing something without good reason” not only has no value; it’s actually a failing.
“Faith” in the sense of “loyalty” isn’t incompatible with proof.
All your ifs need to be verified, right? Faith doesn't answer any of it.
The answer is rhetorical.
Who would buy a $20 pill labeled to cure all your diseases.
Some could learn from Socrates on cynisism.
In Christianity (since we're talking about "faith" as a virtue, which tends to be a specifically Christian idea), faith used to refer to loyalty to God ("faithfulness") and not to mere acceptance of God's existence without evidence; that came later.
And it really doesn't make sense to pin salvation on the mere belief that God exists; according to the mythology, even Satan does that much.
What are different claims that prove bahai claims as false according to the OP?
If you say so. I’ve met plenty of religious people who have said that “faith” stands opposed to logical inference from the facts.To me Faith only comes about because of a just an logical search of all the facts presented.
And I asked @adrian009 what any of them had to do with establishing that someone was a messenger of God. If you have any thoughts on the matter, feel free to share.The OP listed some criteria that can be considered.
Thank you. So what are your expectations for a future Messiah and would it be possible for you to make the same mistake as the Jews?
Several errors here. There is no reason that one would have to view things from another's perspective. If that perspective is flawed all that one would see is that confirmation bias is a strong force. Second one does not need to "prove atheism". Atheism is the null hypothesis, the ground state, of belief. Without evidence I do not believe in fairies. Without evidence I do not believe in Bigfoot. Without evidence I do not believe in visitors from outer space. And without evidence I do not believe in a god.
Third the criteria I posted eliminate almost every prophesy that I can think of. They are reasonable standards that a prophecy must meet to be of any value. The claims of "prophecy" fail from every religion so far.
You cannot "prove" anything with regard to God....that is why we need "faith". Faith does not require proof (Hebrews 11:1) ...it requires conviction. We all have to find our own, based on what we accept as truth.....why we accept it tells God a lot about who we are.
Christians cannot accept the teachings of anyone but Jesus Christ. We have no prophets after him. If their prophet is believed to be the returned Messiah, then where are the fulfilled Messianic promises? Where is the end of pain, suffering and death? (Revelation 21:2-4)
Where is the paradise that was foretold by the Jewish prophets like Isaiah? Where is the end of war? (Isaiah 11:1-9; Isaiah 65:21-25; Isaiah 2:2-4)
Or Psalm 46:8-9....
"Come and witness the activities of Jehovah,
How he has done astonishing things on the earth.
9 He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth.
He breaks the bow and shatters the spear;
He burns the military wagons with fire."
Where do we see that? When have we seen a time when humans are not warring with one another? It seems to be consistently increasing. And the weaponry has just become more indiscriminate and lethal.
With regard to Bahá'u’lláh.....is the Messiah to return, only to die twice? His sacrificial death in the first century was the ransom paid to redeem mankind....he was not going to return in the flesh and then lead people in a different path, trying to unite all religions and give credence to false prophets. Jehovah kept his people strictly separated from the nations who worshipped other gods.
Christ's return as judge of all the earth was going to be spectacular, accompanied by his angelic forces, to deal with disobedient mankind who followed the devil into false worship....and to reward those who remained faithful to the truth (sheep and goats).....it was to be the end of the age....and the beginning of the "new earth" under the "new heavens".....God's Kingdom. (2 Peter 3:13)
If you see the criteria listed for a true prophet...."The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass (Deuteronomy 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God’s revealed word and commandments (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)"
1) Bahá'u’lláh did not speak in the name of YHWH. (Yahweh, Jehovah)
2) If what he said did come to pass, then that is a matter of interpretation.
3) His prophesies did not harmonize with the revealed word of God.
Baha'i sprang from Islam, not Judaism. The nation that God chose descended from Isaac not Ishmael. Jesus himself said that salvation originates with the Jews.....it was not to end with them however.
I do not believe that you can ever harmonize all the false religion in the world and meld them into one universal plan for the human race...that to me is something that the devil would promote....not because universal harmony is itself a bad thing, but because of the compromise involved in facilitating such a movement. It might sound good in theory, but it fights with everything the Bible teaches and it means that no one has to take a stand for God amid false religious opposers. It would mean that God didn't really mean what he said when he forbade Israel to adopt the worship of the Canaanites. He commanded that they remain separated from those beliefs and practices...but Israel disobeyed their God and immersed themselves in those false religious practices. God punished them severely for doing that...so why would Jehovah send a prophet into the world to negate everything that he taught his people....going against the teachings of his own son?
You will notice something interesting with the first requirement of a prophet listed above.....the importance of Jehovah's name. In his model prayer, the first thing that Jesus mentioned was the sanctification of God's name. (Matthew 6:9) Out of the three "Abrahamic faiths still on earth to this day...what do you see with regard to God's divine name...YHWH (Jehovah in English)?
The Jews cannot utter it, so the use of the name is lost to history because no one really knows how to pronounce it now. So "Hasham" (literally meaning "the name") is as close as they can get to the divine name. "Adonai" (LORD) is the substitute when reading their scripture though YHWH is written there. It seems odd that the Bible writers had no such hesitation to use God's name freely and reverently throughout their writings.....so why was there a decision made to remove God's name from their speech? Their excuse for this is not valid when you consult their scripture.
Islam calls God "Allah" which again simply means "LORD".....so again God remains nameless.
Christendom adopted the Jewish tradition of leaving God's name out of their vocabulary as well, and its not found in most of their Bible translations either......and because Jesus is also called "Lord" they have confused him with his Father and made them into one god, throwing in the holy spirit for good measure. So it seems that a nameless "LORD" is worshipped by all three.
Jehovah's Witnesses sought to rectify that situation and to restore God's name to its rightful place in scripture. We use God's name freely and reverently in whatever language is spoken by us, because God is the originator of language and recognizes his name in any tongue. It isn't how you say it...its the identity of the true God who is distinguished in the scriptures by his unique name. To us there has to be a clear distinction between the true God and his prophets and the many false gods and their prophets. We have no trouble making that distinction because we see it as something God has done all through Bible history. There can be no amalgamation. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
This is how we see things...
Its great to see so many responses to the OP. I never know what to expect on RF.
I was contemplating overnight how important it is to thoroughly consider the merits or otherwise of any religion we are considering joining. Its is one of those really important decisions we make or fail to make in life. Some people join a faith or religion without thinking it through carefully. I don't have a problem with that. However for many of us at some stage its important to closely examine what we believe and why. So each one of us may have criteria we apply to examining our beliefs. Sometimes its conscious and can be clearly stated. Other times very personal and not so easy to express.
I'm busy at work today so will respond to individual posts through the day as time permits.
Thank you.