Can we change our mind about what we believe?

[Trailblazer]

Well, given my conversations with you so far, it did seem pretty likely you have a reasonable mentality. I'm about the same as you, but if someone has a belief which clearly contradicts logic, and they're not acting reasonable, then I'll usually just not try to argue with them, ignore them, that sort of thing before they even finish explaining things fully. I tend to see conversation at the point being useless, that they need to experience things to realize they need to change their views, or possibly I could convince them they're wrong, but it would take far too long just to get them to the point where we could have a reasonable discussion. I guess you could say that I pick my 'battles' wisely, as to not end up losing due to simply exhaustion instead of something more meaningful (like being proven wrong).

if someone has a belief which clearly contradicts logic and common sense, as well as the scriptures, I will listen to what they say and reply with what I think is actually true. Here is an example of that:

On another thread, @URAVIP2ME said:
According to Genesis we are Not accidentally here but for the purpose of Genesis 1:28 to populate Earth, take good care of Earth and live forever on Earth.

I replied:
According to Genesis we were to populate Earth and take good care of Earth, but God never intended for anybody to live forever on Earth.

Humans will continue to be born and die on Earth as long as Earth lasts, but after humans die they do not come back to life and live on Earth. forever.
They go to Heaven and live forever in Heaven.

I tend to see this conversation as being useless, because he will never change his views, and there is no possibility that I can convince him he is wrong.
He has been thoroughly indoctrinated by his JW church, almost to the point of being a robot, but that is not the only reason he will never change his views. The other reason is because he wants to live on Earth forever, and if he changed his views he would have to give up what he is so much looking forward to. It would be the same for a Christian who is looking forward to going to Heaven. If that person changed his views about going to Heaven after he dies he would have nothing to look forward to. Actually, it would be the same thing for a Baha'i who is looking forward to going to what we call 'the next world' after they die. If they were no longer a Baha'i they would not have that to look forward to, although they could take on another belief system that promises sometthng else after we die.

So no, I am not going to have a resonable discussion with Christians whose beliefs are diametrically opposed to my beliefs, if they are set in their beliefs. There are many Christian beliefs that differ from my beliefs, I was only using the one I noted above as an example. Another belief Christians hold is that the same Jesus is going to return to Earth, and there is no point trying to argue about that and tell them Jesus never promised to return because it is like talking to a stone wall. There is also no point trying to tell Christians that other religions aside from Christianity are true because a central tenet of Christiaanity is that Jesus is the only way and only Christianity is true, making all other religions false.

I am not in a battle with anyone and I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, but I will correct beliefs that I think are patently false because I feel it is my obligation to do so on a public forum, for the benefit of all. Some beliefs are just too absurd, like the belief that Jesus is going to come barreling down from Heaven in the clouds and land on Earth, or the belief that after they are dead and buried, physical bodies will rise from their graves and come back to life. These beliefs contradict what is scientifically possible, and Baha'is do not hold beliefs that contracdict science.

 

[Truthseeker]

I am a person who has suffered almost my entire life. I had no religion as a child but I had a religion all throughout adulthood, since I joined the Baha'i Faith when I was 17 years old. Initially I became a Baha'i because the religion made sense to me and rang true, not because I was looking for a religion or seeking God. I did not look to my religion to heal me and it could not have healed me since I had psychological problems that needed to be healed, not spiritual problems.

Once I realized that I had psychological problems I got the help that I needed. That was a long time ago, back in the 1980s and 1990s. Only after healing had occurred was God or my religion of any real use to me. Only after I had dealt with my psychological problems did I engage with the religion or start thinking about God and seeking to know more about what my religion says about God.

Much new information has come my way since I started reading and posting on different religious forums 11 years ago, but I can look at that information objectively because I am not attached to my religion or expecting it to be a cure for any personal problems. I just want to know the truth about God.

Wow! New insight into your journey after 11 years! I copied this part your answer to a file so I can refer to it.

 

[Truthseeker]

My religion isn't a major one (yet), so that now makes sense that they reacted that way. Well, sort of, I did get the feeling that they were being intentionally misleading so I would be forced to listen to what they were saying without being able to have a meaningful discussion with them. But I understand perfectly well that 1 believer of a religion doesn't mean all other believers of that religion are the same.

I have been listening to this exchange, and I say as this Baha'i while the people we see as the Messengers of God are considered infallible, that does mean to me that other religions are not inspired by God. Here's what Baha'u'llah said:

There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 217)

I accent the word inspiration, because according to my understanding of this, most religions have have some sort of inspiration. Other Baha'is will, of course, have different understanding than I do. However I have no idea what a Atheist Flawlessist is.

 

[Truthseeker]

I'm about the same as you, but if someone has a belief which clearly contradicts logic, and they're not acting reasonable, then I'll usually just not try to argue with them, ignore them, that sort of thing before they even finish explaining things fully. I tend to see conversation at the point being useless, that they need to experience things to realize they need to change their views, or possibly I could convince them they're wrong, but it would take far too long just to get them to the point where we could have a reasonable discussion. I guess you could say that I pick my 'battles' wisely, as to not end up losing due to simply exhaustion instead of something more meaningful (like being proven wrong).

That sounds familiar to me. I do exactly the same, or least I hope I will. I do have a bad temper, and will sometimes get heated with people.

 

[joelr]

..because you started talking about it..

But all you did was add a fallacy and confirm my stats?

..and over 50% of the world's pop. believe in the One God of Abraham.
..which trumps your 1/3

First, a fallacy for a reason, because it doesn't demonstrate it's true. Appeal to popularity.

2nd you are ignoring that just because your fiction uses that god doesn't mean you lump yourself in with Christians.

But the biggest thing is with an appeal to popularity, 1/3 or 1/2 is absolutely meaningless. There is no "trumping" with an appeal to popularity.

1/3 is Islam. You consider Christians and Jews heretics and will suffer a horrible doom. Your scripture is clear on this. Your beliefs are 1/3.

It doesn't matter if it was 1/2 because it's still a fallacy and still fiction. But it isn't. It's 1/3

I never said that's what makes it true. It's just that it's a serious belief.

Mormonism is a serious belief, millions of Mormons. Hinduism is a serious belief, billions of Hindu.
All of it serious, doesn't make it true at all.

..but they aren't

Right, only 1/3 are in Islam, most are other, with other beliefs. With Christians you need to believe in Jesus as son of god.
You do not.

But still, doesn't matter if 100% believed in the same, doesn't make it true.
Except Islam is divided anyways.

..divide & rule, eh?

I don't want to rule. I'm just spreading critical thinking and counter apologetics.

I follow what I consider to be logical about "son of G-d" and what-have-you.
..and we cannot know everything about God .. what anybody knows is a mere drop in the ocean.

No, you follow what your religion teaches you. If you only know a drop in the ocean about god then you do not know if he decided to have a demigod son. You simply don't.

But you also don't follow logic at all.

Explain to me how you even get to god with logic? Explain how logic tells you a man claimed revelations from an angel, just like the thousand other religions, we found a palimpset showing it was a work in progress over a long time period and nothing in the revelations is anything people didn't already know.
Sounds like it's made up. The scholars who study it seem to agree.

Seeing is believing, eh?

Uh, no, didn't say anything about "seeing", I said - "I believe in things that are sufficiently justified to hold beliefs in.."

SUFFICIENTLY JUSTIFIED, as in has evidence. Not evidence that it's a folk story, made up like all others.

What we see now, is not necessarily all there is..

thank you Cpt. Obvious

..and one might throw away the baby with the bathwater, if they aren't careful.

OR one ,might throw away another same old mythology about god that sounds suspiciously like Arabs writing the "god" part themselves.

 

[Truthseeker]

@Echogem222, @Trailblazer was more on the ball when she said that any religion has some truth in it. God giving it inspiration is not a requirement for a religion having some truth in it. After all, science has a lot of truth to it, and it is not a religion at all.

It is good to look for points of agreement, I try to do that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, you follow what your religion teaches you..

If it didn't make sense, I wouldn't follow it.

If you only know a drop in the ocean about god then you do not know if he decided to have a demigod son. You simply don't..

..but it doesn't make sense .. what actually IS a "demi-god son"?

 

[Echogem222]

I accent the word inspiration, because according to my understanding of this, most religions have some sort of inspiration. Other Baha'is will, of course, have different understanding than I do. However, I have no idea what an Atheist Flawlessist is.

An Atheist Flawlessist is someone who believes in the atheist sect of Flawlessism, which is a non-secular religion. If you want to learn more about Flawlessism, there's a subreddit I made on Reddit.com, and while I can't give you the direct link since it's a religion restricted to 18+, I can give you the means to get there. Just start with https://www.reddit.com/ and then merge it with this part: r/GoodAndEvilReligion/wiki/index/

It's not restricted to 18 and up because of any legal reasons, but because of teachings in Flawlessism being against people under 18 adhering faith to it, but since it is restricted to 18+, some of the teachings tend to cover topics which are 18+.

I founded Flawlessism myself, and it's a religion/philosophy which evolves through trial and error, so parts of Flawlessism can be disproven and then corrected without issues, but if the core faith is disproven, then Flawlessism can no longer evolve. The core faith is that a Flawless Good exists (hence the name Flawlessism), this Flawless Good however is not taught to be a God or entity, which is why by default this religion is atheist. However, it's technically possible that Gods, entities, etc. could exist, which is why there's a theist sect of Flawlessism (though at the moment I don't think anyone believes in that sect, I only created it because I can't control what anyone decides to do with my religion [how they decide to believe in it]).

 

[Truthseeker]

I founded Flawlessism myself, and it's a religion/philosophy which evolves through trial and error, so parts of Flawlessism can be disproven and then corrected without issues, but if the core faith is disproven, then Flawlessism can no longer evolve. The core faith is that a Flawless Good exists (hence the name Flawlessism), this Flawless Good however is not taught to be a God or entity, which is why by default this religion is atheist. However, it's technically possible that Gods, entities, etc. could exist, which is why there's a theist sect of Flawlessism (though at the moment I don't think anyone believes in that sect, I only created it because I can't control what anyone decides to do with my religion [how they decide to believe in it]).

I tried to follow the instruction you gave to find Flawlessism on Reddit, which I already knew about, but I don't know exactly what you mean by merging it with r/GoodAndEvilReligion/wiki/index/. I pasted that into the search mechanism at Reddit, and got a very long list of posts in different reddits, but nothing in that list that referenced r/Flawlessism. I then transitioned from posts to communities and only came up with Zoroastrianism

Anyhow, trial and error is one part of science. You come up with a hypothesis and you test it, here you seem to test it with reason. Sounds like philosophy, in a way. So you are ready to discard Flawlessism if the core faith or hypothesis is disproven? Do I understand that right?

Baha'is believe that a Flawless Good exists, except in our case the Flawless Good is God. That is not original with Baha'i, of course.

 

[Echogem222]

I tried to follow the instruction you gave to find Flawlessism on Reddit, which I already knew about, but I don't know exactly what you mean by merging it with r/GoodAndEvilReligion/wiki/index/. I pasted that into the search mechanism at Reddit, and got a very long list of posts in different reddits, but nothing in that list that referenced r/Flawlessism. I then transitioned from posts to communities and only came up with Zoroastrianism

Anyhow, trial and error is one part of science. You come up with a hypothesis and you test it, here you seem to test it with reason. Sounds like philosophy, in a way. So you are ready to discard Flawlessism if the core faith or hypothesis is disproven? Do I understand that right?

Baha'is believe that a Flawless Good exists, except in our case the Flawless Good is God. That is not original with Baha'i, of course.

When I said merge, I meant put it next to. So, you'd do it like this: https://www.reddit.com/[----]r/GoodAndEvilReligion/wiki/index/ (but just remove this part [----]).

Anyway, aside from that, yes, I would stop believing in Flawlessism if the core faith is disproven.

 

[joelr]

If it didn't make sense, I wouldn't follow it.

That is 100% false. There is no evidence to support angels, heaven, all supernatural concepts, revelations, ridiculous miracles like the moon splitting and strong evidence they copied older myths to create a narrative.
Believing it's literally true makes as much sense as believing Mormonism, Hinduism or Greek mythology.

All religions find a way to make sense of their doctrine. The ethics and ideas of the time become the laws from "god".
People still today try to find ways to make sense of religious nonsense. Creationists deny science. Islam denies being gay and womens rights by saying it's your "burden" in life to ignore your desire to be gay or to have equal rights. Because the god of reality cannot deal with gay people and women having rights? Right. How about the men from that period had those ideas and wrote a book claiinh they were "revelations".

Same things EVERY religions does. Back then divine wisdom was the preferred wisdom over critical thinking. We didn't yet understand science or trust scientific thought and people assumed the supernatural was real. They knew there was no deity speaking to them but they assumed higher ups had communication with god. They don't.

..but it doesn't make sense .. what actually IS a "demi-god son"?

Born of a mortal woman and God. If you don't know than you don't know. Period. If you buy into this mythology, then you believe in angels, revelations and all sorts of silly fiction like Noah's flood. So God making a son with a mortal woman is something you cannot rule out.

Of course it's just Greek mythology, many religions had demigods, many mystery religions had demigod saviors.

But your religion is also a product of older religions and evidence exists that it was a work in progress.

You want to say you know very little about God but if any concepts from other religions are on the table then suddenly you are sure it doesn't make sense. It just demonstrates it's all lip service and confirmation bias.

Your religion claims the OT is true, which is a bunch of Mesopotamian myths, it even mentions Noah by name. It uses the Greek afterlife and the seminar Dr Millar attended which summarized all the work that has been done on it is a historical way:

"Islam has it’s own mythology that looks to be a product of it’s time in Arabia, has a lot of the same poetic patterns, scholars have unpacked that. In the Christian West we are allowed to do critical-history on Christianity but Islam is hard to study because it’s still taboo. In the Islamic world that type of study is modulated quite a bit.


As you would expect it has congruence with what was prior. Zoroastrianism was a big influence and a predecessor. We see the trajectory of Persian and Arabic religion coming into that time period and producing the Quran."



and Dr Nasser -
The Quran | Origins and Canonization With Dr. Shady Nasser

1:15:10

We think that religions and cultures influence each other and Islam is just like these other traditions that it carries baggage, influence from these other Christian and Jewish traditions

15:19

Historians look at these things differently, Muhammad was a merchant, he was in touch with Christians in the north and south, he was in touch with the Christians in Ethiopia, the Jews in Medina, ….Islam was born in context of late antiquity, as an early civilization it’s almost a sponge that absorbed different traditions from Christianity, Judaism, Persia, Manikeans, you name it. It’s not a culture that was born out of nothing. Of course what was happening in other churches and on commercial trade routes were important to its development, its not a vacuum.



So what actually makes sense is it's just a collection of cultural ideas, and that is exactly what we see. All prior ideas, Angels, revelations, laws from a deity that reflect the current laws and distrust of Christians and Jews. It's so obvious it was written by men.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's so obvious it was written by men..

..not to me.. and not to billions of others.

I believe in the unseen .. I don't believe the narrative of atheist historians.

 

[Truthseeker]

When I said merge, I meant put it next to. So, you'd do it like this: https://www.reddit.com/[----]r/GoodAndEvilReligion/wiki/index/ (but just remove this part [----]).

Anyway, aside from that, yes, I would stop believing in Flawlessism if the core faith is disproven.

Okay, I've successfully got into Flawlessism. I will look into some of it, anyway, in the future.

 

[joelr]

..not to me..

Personal incredulity is a common fallacy. "I can't imagine it was written by people", that is a lack of knowledge from you and doesn't reflect on what is actually true

and not to billions of others.

Argument to popularity. There are billions of Hindu as well, does that mean Lord Krishna is real? Billions believe in the trinity, yet it's not real.

I believe in the unseen ..

The visible spectrum of light is very small, the rest of the EM waves cannot be seen. Particles are invisible, many things are not seen with the eye.
That doesn't show there is a spirit realm, those are just stories with zero evidence.

Believing in Mormonism, Scientology or Islam doesn't make it true.

I don't believe the narrative of atheist historians.

Their evidence has nothing to do with atheism. It has to do with reality. Also......don't care. Do. Not. Care. What . You. Believe. Unless. You. Have. Evidence.

The extent to which you don't care about truth is staggering. I don't even know what your words mean? You don't think Mesopotamian mythology was real? You think it's made up? You don't believe the Hellenistic Greeks started the idea of a soul goes to heaven after death? You think that is all made up by historians? Do you think ancient Greece as a nation is all made up?
Do you even believe in historians at all or is it just a secret group of atheists who "hate god" and sit around and find ways to be heretical to religion?
At any rate, as usual you cannot seem to present evidence, for anything you say, it's all just magic and beliefs.

So I don't care what you believe. You will seemingly believe anything if it comes from your religion. So I don't care, why you are telling me I do not know?
Can you provide evidence is the question. The answer continues to be "NO".

This exposes your beliefs as unfounded. You don't believe historians but a book of magic, angels, and a deity who cannot stop saying "a horrible doom", that seems reliable? And that is a good example of why billions will hold belief in made up things. Because evidence be-dammed, if it sounds good and sounds like something I WANT to be true, heck, it must be true. Ok. Very enlightening.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You don't think Mesopotamian mythology was real?

What do you mean by "real" ?
I don't disbelieve that we have some record of their underlying culture.

You don't believe the Hellenistic Greeks started the idea of a soul goes to heaven after death?

No .. I don't believe they "started it".

Do you think ancient Greece as a nation is all made up?

Of course not.

You don't believe historians but a book of magic, angels, and a deity who cannot stop saying "a horrible doom"..

That is not all that G-d says .. there are warnings, and there are also promises of success.
There are also explanations as to how we can achieve success .. spiritual truths.
..but you reject them, on theories of conspiracy.

 

[joelr]

What do you mean by "real" ?
I don't disbelieve that we have some record of their underlying culture.

Yes and in the creation of Genesis those stories were used and rewritten to make a better God.

No .. I don't believe they "started it".

Why? We don't see it in earlier Greek myth and religion or any other culture. We see it emerge, very specific around 300 BCE. Every nation they invaded had a religion similar to Judaism and was changed to become a mystery religion. Salvation, savior demigods, souls returning home to the immortal home of heaven. All Hellinism.

Hellenistic Greek view of cosmology

Material world/body is a prison of the soul
Humans are immortal souls, fallen into the darkness of the lower world
Death sets the soul free
No human history, just a cycle of birth, death, rebirth
Immortality is inherent for all humans
Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul
Humans are fallen and misplaced
Death is a stripping of the body so the soul can be free
Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed
Asceticism is the moral idea for the soul

Not in Judiasm:
Genesis view
Creation/body very good, procreation good
Humans are “living breathers”, akin to animals, mortal, dust of the earth
Death is dark silent “sleeping in the dust”
Human history moves toward a perfected new age/creation
Salvation is eternal life in the perfected world of the new creation
Humans belong on earth
Resurrection brings a new transformed glorious spiritual body
Death is an enemy
Physical life and sensory pleasures are good
(compiled from Dr Tabor)

But forget all these new historians. Let's go back to a serious work of apologetics from believing Christian scholars, the massive:

Encyclopaedia Biblica : a critical dictionary of the literary, political, and religious history, the archaeology, geography, and natural history of the Bible
by Cheyne, T. K. (Thomas Kelly), 1841-1915; Black, J. Sutherland (John Sutherland), 1846-1923

"We must conclude with the following guarded thesis. There is in the circle of ideas in the NT, in addition to what is new, and what is taken over from Judaism, much that is Greek ; but whether this is adopted directly from the Greek or borrowed from the Alexandrians, who indeed aimed at a complete fusion of Hellenism and Judaism, is, in the most important cases, not to be determined ; and primitive Christianity as a whole stands considerably nearer to the Hebrew world than to the Greek."

Even they had to admit, worded weirdly, and still tried to credit Hebrew way more than is reasonable, that the NT is Hellenistic theology.
They won't go as far as modern scholars who are non-bias.


So again, what is your evidence?

of course not.

then why do you say such bizarre things? Like above, without giving sources or reasons?

That is not all that G-d says .. there are warnings, and there are also promises of success.
There are also explanations as to how we can achieve success .. spiritual truths.
..but you reject them, on theories of conspiracy.

I didn't say I reject all advice, I said it's written by people. If they have good advice on success try it out. I guarantee it isn't anything humans didn't already know.
Success in this life, a very common subject. Nothing new or special in the Quran about that.
Success in the afterlife if you follow Allah, a soul going to heaven for eternal rewards, Greek mythology.
Hey, if you want to believe myths go for it.

However, I haven't mentioned any conspiracy theories? Anything I presented is founded in historical studies.
The opinions on the Quran are also founded in findings from people who study it for a living.

Many variants have been found, early writings. This looks to be writings from people that reflect a certain time, everything adds up to that.
If you can debunk Islamic scholarship and explain how this is a "conspiracy theory" please, I welcome new information.
See, this is exactly why I ask if you even believe in Greek mythology, the things you say are not grounded in reality, how am I supposed to know how far out in space your ideas are?

Is something a conspiracy theory if it doesn't match a reality you already decided it the truth no matter what? Then you do not care about what is actually true. No different than if I said Mormonism is the most true doctrine no matter what anyone or anything says. They will automatically be called a conspiracy theory. It's no different than flat earth.

A Critical Examination of the Quran & Islam: Dr. Shady Nasser


1:21:37 Dr. Shady Nasser: "Many islamic practices were pagan practices and they were incorporated into Islam! Pilgrimage for example, it is described in the muslim sources how pagan Arabs were doing pilgrimage around the Kaaba, the things they were saying even, it's exactly the same phrases that muslims now say, when they are doing pilgrimage, it's exactly the same phrases the pagans were using but you replace the name of the idol with the name of God, that's it! "

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why? We don't see it in earlier Greek myth and religion or any other culture..

What? The concept of a soul going to heaven?
..That's unlikely, imo.

However, the fact there maybe little info about such beliefs is not proof that they didn't exist
somewhere on planet earth 1000's of years ago.

Not in Judiasm:
Genesis view
Creation/body very good, procreation good
Humans are “living breathers”, akin to animals, mortal, dust of the earth
Death is dark silent “sleeping in the dust”
Human history moves toward a perfected new age/creation
Salvation is eternal life in the perfected world of the new creation
Humans belong on earth
Resurrection brings a new transformed glorious spiritual body
Death is an enemy
Physical life and sensory pleasures are good
(compiled from Dr Tabor)

Right .. "not in Judaism" .. but Jesus came to put right what had been "put wrong"
through corruption and ignorance.
..as did Muhammad, peace be with them both.

If you can debunk Islamic scholarship and explain how this is a "conspiracy theory" please, I welcome new information..

You assume that Jesus and Muhammad were either deluded or conspiring to control others.
That's a conspiracy theory, "in my book".

 

[joelr]

What? The concept of a soul going to heaven?
..That's unlikely, imo.

However, the fact there maybe little info about such beliefs is not proof that they didn't exist
somewhere on planet earth 1000's of years ago.

I'm talking about this specific version,


The basic Hellenistic idea is taken into the Hebrew tradition. Salvation in the Hellenistic world is how do you save your soul and get to Heaven. How to transcend the physical body.

Greek tomb “I am a child of earth and starry heaven but heaven alone is my home”


Does this sound familiar, Christian hymns - “this world is not my home, I’m a pilgrim passing through, Jesus will come and take you home”.


Common theme that comes from the Hellenistic religions. Immortal souls trapped in a human body etc…

Right .. "not in Judaism" .. but Jesus came to put right what had been "put wrong"
through corruption and ignorance.

Right, so the NT writers then take a Greek dying/rising savior demigod myth and make that the new focus.

And you still haven't shown any "corruption or ignorance" in the OT?

..as did Muhammad, peace be with them both.

Yes that was another mythology, both condemning all other belief systems. If they wanted peace they would respect freedom of religion.

You assume that Jesus and Muhammad were either deluded or conspiring to control others.
That's a conspiracy theory, "in my book".

No that's a strawman because I never said that.

A Hellenistic/Persian (end of the world and a messiah) folk tale started and Paul got it traction. Than Mark wrote a historical fiction based on Greek theology, and rewrote Romulus, Jesus Ben Anais, Homer, Paul OT stories and created a myth. The other Gospels copied and added what they wanted to say.
It's called a myth and every nation ever had one to give a supernatural framework for laws, an origin, and so on. Israel had one but Persia and Greece had such powerful trending religions that it was upgraded to include those myths.

Muhammad and the writers of the Quran were trying their hand at a similar thing. No one knows the exact reason, maybe they felt it was needed, maybe they wanted control, I don't know.
You say it like it's unusual yet you know full well that all of the Mesopotamian religions, Greek Pantheon (the classical pantheon) the Roman pantheon and every other religion was exactly the same thing. It's how people expressed laws, wisdom, control, gave hope to people.
The people who study the Quran in a historical way find it's no different. Arab, Persian and Jewish mysticism, laws and so on.


Why is it when someone points out your religion is no different than the other 10,000 it's a "conspiracy"? Yet there are millions of Mormons in the U.S. and you know that is made up. Same with all the Hindu stories, and any other religion ancient or modern.

Ancient people made up stories about a god who spoke to a special person and it grows from there. That's it. They are not "conspiracy theories", they already have a name, religions, or myth.
It's made up, we probably won't know why. He could have had really good intentions?

The Christian apologetic response to Islam is funny because they accuse him of no evidence while everything in their religion also has no evidence, notice how bad apologetics are, and how misleading. They use the gospel tales, clearly fiction, anonymous, non-eyewitness stories as evidence. Unbelievable. But now remember, this is the same type of material that turned you on to Islam, apologetics. See how they lie.
They literally say it was written by eyewitness, yet Christian scholarship says it isn't.


"

Why Should Anyone Believe Muhammad’s Claims?​

The first point that is raised is the obvious question, “Why should anyone believe the claims of Muhammad?” The mere making of a claim does not make it true. There has to be some reason to believe the claims that are recorded by him and about him.

Yet, Muhammad offered no evidence apart from his own claims that Allah, or God, spoke to him. This is not enough to cause us to believe.

Furthermore, Muhammad claimed to be the last and greatest of the prophets. This being the case, the standard of proof we should expect to see should be very high.

It should not be lower than any of the prophets of Holy Scripture which went before him. This includes Jesus. Muhammad should demonstrate that he was greater than Jesus. Yet the proof is just not there.

However, there are many reasons why we should not believe his claims. They can be summarized as follows.

There Are No Miraculous Elements in Islam​

Islam contains no miraculous elements as we find in the Bible. There is nothing in the Quran that would have us believe any supernatural hand was behind Muhammad. Indeed, there are no genuine miracles attributed to him.

This is in contrast to the Bible that contains numerous accounts of the miraculous. These accounts were written by people who were eyewitnesses to the events, such as the apostles of Jesus. They were not merely telling us stories. Peter wrote,....





Eyewitness? Yet, real scholarship says different:



"To provide a good overview of the majority opinion about the Gospels, the Oxford Annotated Bible (a compilation of multiple scholars summarizing dominant scholarly trends for the last 150 years) states (p. 1744):

Neither the evangelists nor their first readers engaged in historical analysis. Their aim was to confirm Christian faith (Lk. 1.4; Jn. 20.31). Scholars generally agree that the Gospels were written forty to sixty years after the death of Jesus. They thus do not present eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus’ life and teachings."


Although you don't believe scholars because of ...well because of apologetic reasons. So you have to say only Islamic apologetics are true. What a tap-dance you have to do to make your stories work......




The Prophet
And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit. the sun isn't in orbit, people thought it was at that time. It's almost like people wrote the book from their own knowledge?

 

[muhammad_isa]

No that's a strawman because I never said that.

A Hellenistic/Persian (end of the world and a messiah) folk tale started and Paul got it traction. Than Mark wrote a historical fiction based on Greek theology, and rewrote Romulus, Jesus Ben Anais, Homer, Paul OT stories and created a myth. The other Gospels copied and added what they wanted to say..

Ah, right .. now it's Mark & Paul who was deluded or plotting a conspiracy.

Muhammad and the writers of the Quran were trying their hand at a similar thing..

..conspiracy!

No one knows the exact reason, maybe they felt it was needed, maybe they wanted control, I don't know.

No .. you don't know .. but billions of people believe it to be true.
..but not you .. there has to be some reason why "they made it up".

..there are millions of Mormons in the U.S. and you know that is made up..

Do I? Why would that be?

Same with all the Hindu stories, and any other religion ancient or modern..

..ditto?

..Muhammad offered no evidence apart from his own claims that Allah, or God, spoke to him. This is not enough to cause us to believe..

Of course it isn't .. it is about WHAT was reported to have been said, and why.

There Are No Miraculous Elements in Islam​

Islam contains no miraculous elements as we find in the Bible..

..but you believe neither.

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit. the sun isn't in orbit, people thought it was at that time..

I've seen this nonsense before .. you read some English translation of prose/idiom and think
you've found a flaw.
You'll be telling me that the sun doesn't fall into a muddy spring, next.

 

[joelr]

Ah, right .. now it's Mark & Paul who was deluded or plotting a conspiracy.

When you have to change what I'm saying to some bizarre point you made up it shows you are desperate and need to resort to strawmen. You cannot deal with the actual discussion.

The authentic Epistles have Paul only speaking to a vision of Jesus who already died and resurrected. Paul knows of nothing in the later Gospel stories. The dying/rising savior demigod character is a Hellenistic trend going around that region. Plain historical facts.


All Mystery religions have personal savior deities

- All saviors
- all son/daughter, never the supreme God (including Mithriasm)
- all undergo a passion (struggle) patheon
- all obtain victory over death which they share with followers
- all have stories set on earth
- none actually existed
- Is Jesus the exception and based on a real Jewish teacher or is it all made up?

Mark clearly took Paul and used several other sources to create an earthly story for this character. Every nation that Greece invaded came out with one of these Mystery religions with a Hellenistic savior, resurrection, souls go to heaven through the savior.


Elusinian Mysteries = Mycenaean + Hellenistic
Bacchic Mysteries = Phoenician + Hellenistic
Mysteries of Attis and Cybele = Phrygian + Hellenistic
Mysteries of Baal = Anatolian + Hellenistic
Mysteries of Mithras = Persian + Hellenistic
Mysteries of Isis and Osiris = Egyptian + Hellenistic
Christian Mysteries = Jewish + Hellenistic


Mark used the OT, Romulus, Rank/Ragalin Hero mythotype, Homer and other sources to construct his story based on a Greek savior demigod.

This is standard history. Not taught in church, usually denied by laymen fundamentalists. I am interested in what is true and what can be known.

I don't believe you think religion is a conspiracy at all. A group of educated people put together stories and the general public buy into them.
I don't know the motivation of every person who claims revelations? What it isn't is actual revelations.

In ancient times people were going to believe some religion so some people may have decided to take control and make sure it was a productive text.

Mark was probably not creating a religion, he was a schooled writer applying his skillset on a new myth going around. He does all sorts of chiasmus, where the end and beginning are exact reverses of each other as well as many other literary devices. This is literally Lord of the Rings level mythology.

..conspiracy!

You seem to think this is a good point, as usual you fail to remember,

What is Mormonism, because you don't believe that?

What is Jehovas Witness. What is Scientology, Hinduism (all 5 versions), Sikh, Greek religions, Roman religions, Native American religions, South American religions, BAhai....??????

Are they all conspiracy? So then is all mythology conspiracy? Because there are tens of thousands of supernatural myths that the culture it's from takes serious.

Myth is a way to frame wisdom, ethics, philosophy, use metaphor and all types of literary devices, tell stories, bloodlines, ....

The supernatural can be taken as metaphor. When taken literal, yes it's not correct.

It's not thought of as a conspiracy just because the supernatural is fiction. A conspiracy is telling a fact that is not true.
Talking about supernatural is not a fact, anyone is free to apply critical thinking and find it does not work. OR, you can choose to believe it.
Neither is a conspiracy.
You are being disrespectful because you can't make a good point of your own.

Last I remember being in Islam meant you can view myths/religions of other cultures as part of human cultural heritage, useful for understanding different civilizations and their beliefs.

Legends, Myths and Fables in the Qur'an

www.answering-islam.org

There are even some Muslims who readily admit that the Quran narrates myths and fables. For instance, the late renowned Muslim scholar and translator Muhammad Asad states throughout his Quranic translation and commentary that the Quran includes legends and stories of mythical characters.

Regarding the Quranic story of Solomon and the talking ants and birds (S. 27:18-19) Asad stated:

In this instance, Solomon evidently refers to his own understanding and admiration of nature (cf. 38:31-33 and the corresponding notes) as well as to his loving compassion for the humblest of God's creatures, as a great divine blessing: and this is the Qur’anic moral of the LEGENDARY story of the ant. (Asad, The Message of the Qur'an [Dar Al-Andalus Limited 3 Library Ramp, Gibraltar rpt. 1993], p. 578, fn. 17; online source; bold emphasis ours)

Muhammad Asad also stated in reference to some of the other Quranic legends regarding Solomon:

In this as well as in several other passages relating to Solomon, the Qur'an alludes to many POETIC LEGENDS which were associated with his name since early antiquity and had become part and parcel of Judeo-Christian and Arabian lore long before the advent of Islam. Although it is undoubtedly possible to interpret such passages in a "rationalistic" manner, I do not think that this is really necessary. Because they were so deeply ingrained in the imagination of the people to whom the Qur'an addressed itself in the first instance, these legendary accounts of Solomon's wisdom and magic powers had acquired a cultural reality of their own and were, therefore, eminently suited to serve as a medium for the parabolic exposition of certain ethical truths with which this book is concerned: and so, without denying or confirming their MYTHICAL character, the Qur'an uses them as a foil for the idea that God is the ultimate source of all human power and glory, and that all achievements of human ingenuity, even though they may sometimes border on the miraculous, are but an expression of His transcendental creativity. (Asad, p. 498, fn. 77; bold emphasis ours)

No .. you don't know .. but billions of people believe it to be true.
..but not you .. there has to be some reason why "they made it up".

There are reasons. Not because it was true, every religious person ever who argues this point seems to think that they wouldn't make it up if it wasn't true yet somehow they forget every other of the 50,000 religions made up?

Mormonism, millions believe, there was "some" reason why it was made up.
Why was the 5 Hindu religions made up>
Why Bahai?
Why was scientology made up, why was the Cargo Cults made up? Why was the Greek pantheon made up, Roman pantheon, Persian supreme one god made up plus a devil to oppose him?