• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Can the Sciences Legitimately Distinguish Between True and False Religious Beliefs?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
*** REMINDER ***

This is not a thread on the EvC debate or a thread to "educate" people on some particular stance on that debate. Please try to keep the discussion on topic to the opening post. Thanks.
Good point. But if one demands a literal interpretation of Genesis then that "God" can be refuted by science. The fact that Genesis is not meant to be read means that the sciences do not refute Christianity. That is why most Christians accept the theory of evolution. There are a limited number, mostly found in the U.S. but they are not found only here, that demand Genesis be read literally or "it is all a lie". Those Christians are bound and determined to prove their own beliefs false. Or at least that is the way that it looks to a rational person.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Living off gullible people surely is not just the sin of some religions.

I never said it was. But the religious are particularly apt at it.

Most things in our world, politics, religion, and science is filled with lies and half truths. Why do you think I don't belong to any church!
And yet you tow the party line. Funny that.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
*** REMINDER ***

This is not a thread on the EvC debate or a thread to "educate" people on some particular stance on that debate. Please try to keep the discussion on topic to the opening post. Thanks.

Fair enough.

If someone doesn't hold to logic, but holds to a particular religious truth no matter what, there is no way to refute that position. If they refuse to see what is in front of their face, there is no way to refute their position. Faith promotes exactly this type of thinking.

Of course, this is only saying their is no way to refute their position *to them*. Others will be able to judge the evidence and see that the position is proven wrong. If you accept logic and the evidence of the senses, it is possible to prove certain religious claims to be wrong.

Of course, other religious claims are too vague to really have a truth value.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Ah! But you assume too much!

When I was young, I saw "something" and so did my brother ... and though we saw differences, we also saw similarities ... religious as I was in my later years, I proclaimed it a demon; but I no longer believe in such things ... all the elements of a "shared hallucination" are absent, and "power of suggestion" does not adequately explain the phenomenon as we never discussed this until I was in my adulthood.

In my adulthood, during a period of inner turmoil, scribbling furiously on a piece of paper with a lead pencil, I sat the pencil down and it rolled ... yet the surface was flat, there was no breeze, there was no slant in the table ... yet it rolled, predictably and repeatably ... other pencils, which seemed indistinguishable from this one, did not ... yet this one did ...

The last poignant example is feeling an overwhelming sensation that my birth mother was nearby ... I was 14 and had been separated from her for 7 years ... she felt the same sensation and expressed it to her husband while they were miles away from us ... Later, after we were reunited, we started talking consistently, and at times, I would pick up the phone before it rang and just say, "Hi, Momma" ....

Evidence is lacking to explain this phenomenon. No scientific explanation satisfies me in addressing them (and I tend to be very analytical). I no longer choose to juxtapose unprovable assertions, such as poltergeists, demons, ghosts, spirit, supernatural, etc. into these phenomenon; as there is no evidence that such things exist. So until there is evidence or explanation supported by evidence to explain these phenomenon, the answer to HOW, WTF is ... "I don't know".

But these kinds of "can't happen" experiences are not on the same level as the ceasing of planetary motions (which would cause otherwise stable and predictable mathematical algorithms to be "wrong") or a World Wide Flood (which would leave massive evidence, of which there is none) or a great Exodus (of which there lacks not only physical evidence, but the mysterious lack of the mention of such a massive slave revolt in Egyptian history and hieroglyphs).

Being open to possibilities while there is lack of evidence to the contrary is one thing. Being open to possiblities when there is abundant evidence to the contrary is another altogether.

So, can science disprove that I was visited by a demon, that pencils roll by themselves or that humans have perceptions beyond what science can clinically reproduce or explain, or show us what was before the Big Bang?

Okay ... No, at least not yet; and maybe never so. So from that perspective, possibly science can never disprove Or prove) these religious beliefs, be they true OR false ... But again (and I'm repeating myself, so this shall be my last post in this thread), it can certainly disprove religious beliefs when they trample on what science knows to be true; and what science knows to be UNtrue.


"So, can science disprove that I was visited by a demon, that pencils roll by themselves or that humans have perceptions beyond what science can clinically reproduce or explain, or show us what was before the Big Bang?"

Just some thoughts....

Science can more easily prove that which happens materially than it can prove that which happens when the material is affected by decision, psychology, etc. (which need not be based on any logic, and so can be truly random) -and even proving the material becomes more difficult when interactions become more complex.

Evidence for what happened before the Big Bang is literally everywhere -and though it was a massive event, it produced an extreme number of very similar things which are likely made of the same stuff which has always existed. Those things also behave predictably unless decision becomes a factor. It may actually be easier to prove than a much more recent flood.
It may also be more difficult to prove that which happened after the Big Bang, as an extreme number of interactions increased complexity.

Once one gets to Mars, for example, it might be easier to find evidence of water or life on Mars than to figure out who ate the Mars bar out of your candy stash.

When considering THE biblical flood, one must consider many things. The existence of God, the ability of God, the psychology of God, the imperfect language used in having the account recorded, whether it was recorded at the time, whether it is a complete account, related activities of God not recorded, etc., etc.
For example.... If God intended for man to "subdue the earth", he might have done other things relating to life forms which would sustain man.

So......... if we focus on one major point alone -simply (?) the entire earth flooding and the effects on the surface of the earth alone -which would include a die-off of some life forms...

Then we consider the type of flooding described -and assume enough water and the lowest possible intensity.... Because strong rain and soft rain would leave somewhat different evidence..... uniform rain on all of the earth rather than localized violent storms in many places ...water rising from beneath the earth steadily ....

The evidence of such could be different than what has been assumed before. For example.... Things would not necessarily have moved great distances, evidence would not be of violent flooding, etc., etc., .... like the difference between a misty sprinkler and a poured bucket of water.


So.... If we look for only many dead things and sustained wetness which receded fairly slowly -and may have happened non-violently -in the given time frame..... it might be easier and more accurate.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
That's true. One must have at least some education in the sciences to see that one side is lying.

There actually is no evidence for the flood at all. At best they only have a very very bad interpretation of the evidence that tells us that there was no flood.

I'm just one guy who popped into existence not so long ago.
I'll just keep my mind open until I'm absolutely certain.
As a species, we really are working blind to a great degree -so I focus on the best course of action rather than specific beliefs about events.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm just one guy who popped into existence not so long ago.
I'll just keep my mind open until I'm absolutely certain.
As a species, we really are working blind to a great degree -so I focus on the best course of action rather than specific beliefs about events.
Keeping an open mind is fine. But believing in Santa Claus is not having an open mind. Yes, the present day's children's Santa Claus myth is based upon an actual person. And the Noah's Ark story may be based upon an actual flood:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Keeping an open mind is fine. But believing in Santa Claus is not having an open mind. Yes, the present day's children's Santa Claus myth is based upon an actual person. And the Noah's Ark story may be based upon an actual flood:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth
Teeeeeeeeeeechnically, we believe in Santa Claus Because we have an open mind -and stop believing because we have an open mind.

I'll see your link and raise you a......

Did a Comet Cause the Great Flood? | DiscoverMagazine.com
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Teeeeeeeeeeechnically, we believe in Santa Claus Because we have an open mind -and stop believing because we have an open mind.

I'll see your link and raise you a......

Did a Comet Cause the Great Flood? | DiscoverMagazine.com
The problem with that is that there were civilizations at that time that should have noticed such an event. Also if you read the entire article supporting evidence that should be there is not to be found. We know that local floods occur. Sometimes very large local floods, as the evidence for the local flood that I linked shows.

Egypt had a civilization at the time of the flood in that article. They tended to ignore it. Such an event should have shown up in their history at least:

History of ancient Egypt - Wikipedia

At any rate even if your event happened. the flood from that comet was still local. It only affected relatively low lying land. It never threatened humanity nor all animal life. The Ark part of the Noah's Ark story is still completely debunked.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
The problem with that is that there were civilizations at that time that should have noticed such an event. Also if you read the entire article supporting evidence that should be there is not to be found. We know that local floods occur. Sometimes very large local floods, as the evidence for the local flood that I linked shows.

Egypt had a civilization at the time of the flood in that article. They tended to ignore it. Such an event should have shown up in their history at least:

History of ancient Egypt - Wikipedia

At any rate even if your event happened. the flood from that comet was still local. It only affected relatively low lying land. It never threatened humanity nor all animal life. The Ark part of the Noah's Ark story is still completely debunked.
I'm just pointing out that "Science" is not some shared mind that agrees on everything.

The ark story is absolutely debunked if "Science" does not consider an all-powerful God. After the 'God told Noah' part, there is really no point in going on.


Specifically which parts of the ark story?
God told Noah to build it?
Noah built it?
It did not sink?
Does it really specify that all life forms from all over the Earth would be on the ark?
Could any life forms potentially survive?
Did God do anything other than what is recorded?
Does it really say that all life on earth would be descended from that which was on the ark?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
The problem with that is that there were civilizations at that time that should have noticed such an event. Also if you read the entire article supporting evidence that should be there is not to be found. We know that local floods occur. Sometimes very large local floods, as the evidence for the local flood that I linked shows.

Egypt had a civilization at the time of the flood in that article. They tended to ignore it. Such an event should have shown up in their history at least:

History of ancient Egypt - Wikipedia

At any rate even if your event happened. the flood from that comet was still local. It only affected relatively low lying land. It never threatened humanity nor all animal life. The Ark part of the Noah's Ark story is still completely debunked.
Absolute, accurate proof of a consistent human population and lineage before, during and following the time frame given for the flood would certainly contradict what is written.

I was just thinking of various possibilities. Some translations of the bible have Passover replaced with Easter, etc., so it is not as if scripture is invulnerable to various human factors.
I can't even personally say that the flood story is not the result of a few guys having too much wine and a laugh. Other scriptures/prophecies are different in that there is much recorded historical evidence to at least suggest an extreme intelligence is at work.

(According to scripture, the purpose of prophecy is as a record of God having declared events -and the end thereof -beforehand -to be referenced mostly at a time when the existence of God will be apparent to all. Prophecies can be referenced now, but few are willing to put in the work required)
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm just pointing out that "Science" is not some shared mind that agrees on everything.

The ark story is absolutely debunked if "Science" does not consider an all-powerful God. After the 'God told Noah' part, there is really no point in going on.


Specifically which parts of the ark story?
God told Noah to build it?
Noah built it?
It did not sink?
Does it really specify that all life forms from all over the Earth would be on the ark?
Could any life forms potentially survive?
Did God do anything other than what is recorded?
Does it really say that all life on earth would be descended from that which was on the ark?
The problem is that one has to believe in a lying God to believe the Noah's Ark story, the evidence out there only tells us that there never was a worldwide flood. The problem is that for most Christians a lying God is out of the question.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Absolute, accurate proof of a consistent human population and lineage before, during and following the time frame given for the flood would certainly contradict what is written.

No need to go that far. Do you know what a population bottleneck is? Or the related idea of the Found Effect?

I was just thinking of various possibilities. Some translations of the bible have Passover replaced with Easter, etc., so it is not as if scripture is invulnerable to various human factors.
I can't even personally say that the flood story is not the result of a few guys having too much wine and a laugh. Other scriptures/prophecies are different in that there is much recorded historical evidence to at least suggest an extreme intelligence is at work. According to scripture, the purpose of prophecy is as a record of God having declared events -and the end thereof -beforehand -to be referenced mostly at a time when the existence of God will be apparent to all.


It is merely a morality tale at best. To insist that it is true ends up with a person refuting their own God.

And the "prophecy" in the Bible tends to fail as well. By the way, have you heard of the Tyre prophecy?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
No need to go that far. Do you know what a population bottleneck is? Or the related idea of the Found Effect?




It is merely a morality tale at best. To insist that it is true ends up with a person refuting their own God.

And the "prophecy" in the Bible tends to fail as well. By the way, have you heard of the Tyre prophecy?
Again -I'll wait until all of the evidence is in.

The king and prince of Tyre? Ezekiel 28? What about it?

Year-by-Year World Population Estimates: 10,000 B.C. to 2007 A.D.

Again, being accurate about population estimates from 2,000 years ago is impossible, but by taking all sets of estimates, creating an interpolation to fill in the gaps, and averaging all the estimates, we can get a more complete picture provided by the professionals.

The following chart is comprised of 12 sets of estimates. The complete sets along with sources can be found in Appendix: World Population Estimate Sets.

worldpopulationgraph.png


Filling in the Gaps
Finding estimates for milestone years such as 200 B.C., 1 A.D., or 1,000 A.D. is not difficult; it’s acquiring an estimate for a random year like 760 A.D. that can drive a researcher to madness.

To fill in the gaps between these estimates, a spreadsheet has been created that lists all available estimates from 10,000 B.C. to 2007 A.D. With each set of estimates starting with the first number available, the missing years have been filled in with an interpolation. For example, if an estimate set gives us estimates for 100 A.D. and 200 A.D., the years 101-199 have been filled in using a growth trend to give a more complete estimate (To see the full list of averaged estimates, see Appendix: World Population Estimates Interpolated and Averaged
pdf16.gif
).
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Again -I'll wait until all of the evidence is in.

The king and prince of Tyre? Ezekiel 28? What about it?

Year-by-Year World Population Estimates: 10,000 B.C. to 2007 A.D.

Again, being accurate about population estimates from 2,000 years ago is impossible, but by taking all sets of estimates, creating an interpolation to fill in the gaps, and averaging all the estimates, we can get a more complete picture provided by the professionals.

The following chart is comprised of 12 sets of estimates. The complete sets along with sources can be found in Appendix: World Population Estimate Sets.

worldpopulationgraph.png


Filling in the Gaps
Finding estimates for milestone years such as 200 B.C., 1 A.D., or 1,000 A.D. is not difficult; it’s acquiring an estimate for a random year like 760 A.D. that can drive a researcher to madness.

To fill in the gaps between these estimates, a spreadsheet has been created that lists all available estimates from 10,000 B.C. to 2007 A.D. With each set of estimates starting with the first number available, the missing years have been filled in with an interpolation. For example, if an estimate set gives us estimates for 100 A.D. and 200 A.D., the years 101-199 have been filled in using a growth trend to give a more complete estimate (To see the full list of averaged estimates, see Appendix: World Population Estimates Interpolated and Averaged
pdf16.gif
).

"All the evidence" will never be in. That is a meaningless statement. More than enough evidence is in to tell us that the flood never happened. And why the nonsense links and graph?

Why could you not be honest and admit that you do not understand the concept of either a population bottleneck or the Founder Effect?

And the Tyre prophecy is one of the worst failed prophecies in the Bible (let's forget Jesus's promise to be back before all of his disciples had died for now). It cannot be honestly defended.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
"All the evidence" will never be in. That is a meaningless statement. More than enough evidence is in to tell us that the flood never happened. And why the nonsense links and graph?

Why could you not be honest and admit that you do not understand the concept of either a population bottleneck or the Founder Effect?

And the Tyre prophecy is one of the worst failed prophecies in the Bible (let's forget Jesus's promise to be back before all of his disciples had died for now). It cannot be honestly defended.

Is this a beer post?

It seems like a beer post.

My post right now is a beer post -and it makes more sense than yours.

The link content and graph are not mine -blame those folks!

I have never heard of the founder effect -and you're not selling it well.

I have no idea why you think whatever prophecy you are referring to has failed.

If you are not going to explain what the hell you are talking about, how the hell am I sposta know what the hell you are talking about?

...and how am I sposta respond if you throw out many different vague statements about many different things?

Pick a topic or something... bottlneck... founder effect.... Tyre... because I am not at all interested in following your apparently-incoherent thought processes.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Is this a beer post?

It seems like a beer post.

Nope.

My post right now is a beer post -and it makes more sense than yours.

No, it doesn't. But then it is a self admitted beer post.

The link content and graph are not mine -blame those folks!

You used it it is your fault for doing so.

I have never heard of the founder effect -and you're not selling it well.

I did not even try. I was wondering how ignorant you were. Thanks for informing me. Plus you have no clue what a population bottle neck is either.

I have no idea why you think whatever prophecy you are referring to has failed.

The Tyre prophecy failed. It is a test to see if you are an honest Christian or not. An honest one will simply admit that Zeke really screwed the pooch and let it go at that.

If you are not going to explain what the hell you are talking about, how the hell am I sposta know what the hell you are talking about?

You have not been asking questions. You should have been doing a long time ago. Once again you are blaming others for your own lack.

...and how am I sposta respond if you throw out many different vague statements about many different things?

I was merely doing a rather quick evaluation of you. You understand very little of either the sciences or the Bible. And yet you pretend to be rational.

Pick a topic or something... bottlneck... founder effect.... Tyre... because I am not at all interested in following your apparently-incoherent thought processes.

Once again, I am not the incoherent one here.

The lack of universal population bottlenecks refute the flood. The lack of a severe founder effect (and the idea is closely related to population bottlenecks, refutes the Adam and Eve myth.

I can give you links but first I will go over a quick explanation. A population that has existed for a time will eventually become genetically diverse. Even if a population started with just a few individuals the amount of genetic variation will increase as time goes by because each new generation has on the order of roughly 100 mutations in the genome that he or she inherited from his or her parents. For example let's say that God completely remade the DNA of Eve. The largest number of alleles (variations in a particular gene) in their kids would be four. Two from Adam and two from Eve. That is assuming no mutations. Even with 100 mutations the vast majority of genes could still have only four alleles at the most.

Do you understand this?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Nope.



No, it doesn't. But then it is a self admitted beer post.



You used it it is your fault for doing so.



I did not even try. I was wondering how ignorant you were. Thanks for informing me. Plus you have no clue what a population bottle neck is either.



The Tyre prophecy failed. It is a test to see if you are an honest Christian or not. An honest one will simply admit that Zeke really screwed the pooch and let it go at that.



You have not been asking questions. You should have been doing a long time ago. Once again you are blaming others for your own lack.



I was merely doing a rather quick evaluation of you. You understand very little of either the sciences or the Bible. And yet you pretend to be rational.



Once again, I am not the incoherent one here.

The lack of universal population bottlenecks refute the flood. The lack of a severe founder effect (and the idea is closely related to population bottlenecks, refutes the Adam and Eve myth.

I can give you links but first I will go over a quick explanation. A population that has existed for a time will eventually become genetically diverse. Even if a population started with just a few individuals the amount of genetic variation will increase as time goes by because each new generation has on the order of roughly 100 mutations in the genome that he or she inherited from his or her parents. For example let's say that God completely remade the DNA of Eve. The largest number of alleles (variations in a particular gene) in their kids would be four. Two from Adam and two from Eve. That is assuming no mutations. Even with 100 mutations the vast majority of genes could still have only four alleles at the most.

Do you understand this?
I presently have zero interest in reading all of that.

I like you. I'm just not interested in trying to keep up with your bouncing around from this point to that point -from this subject to that subject. I understand a great many things -but you do not seem interested in what I understand.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I presently have zero interest in reading all of that.

I like you. I'm just not interested in trying to keep up with your bouncing around from this point to that point -from this subject to that subject. I understand a great many things -but you do not seem interested in what I understand.


You appear to be greatly over rating your understanding. These are some fairly basic ideas and you have admitted that you are totally ignorant of them. Worse yet when an answer to your questions is given to you, you ignore it. This both guarantees that you will remain ignorant and is highly hypocritical.



Here is an article on cheetahs:

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/160201_cheetahs

It relates to the discussion. They went through a founders effect about 100,000 years ago and a severe population bottleneck about 12,000 years ago. If the Adam and Eve and the Noah's Ark myths were true humanities genome would have an even worse bottleneck than the cheetahs have. Cheetahs are so closely related to each other that you can transplant an organ from almost any one cheetah to almost any other. The exact opposite of what we see with people. If the Noah's Ark myth were true we would see a global population bottleneck. We don't see that. Genetics refutes the myth.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
You appear to be greatly over rating your understanding. These are some fairly basic ideas and you have admitted that you are totally ignorant of them. Worse yet when an answer to your questions is given to you, you ignore it. This both guarantees that you will remain ignorant and is highly hypocritical.



Here is an article on cheetahs:

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/160201_cheetahs

It relates to the discussion. They went through a founders effect about 100,000 years ago and a severe population bottleneck about 12,000 years ago. If the Adam and Eve and the Noah's Ark myths were true humanities genome would have an even worse bottleneck than the cheetahs have. Cheetahs are so closely related to each other that you can transplant an organ from almost any one cheetah to almost any other. The exact opposite of what we see with people. If the Noah's Ark myth were true we would see a global population bottleneck. We don't see that. Genetics refutes the myth.
I very much understand the principles, but having a few correct pieces of information does not make you right.
If you want to discuss, discuss.
If you are here to tell yourself you are right, fine -but you are talking about what you are talking about, not what we were talking about.
What is the point in trying to continue?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I very much understand the principles, but having a few correct pieces of information does not make you right.
If you want to discuss, discuss.
If you are here to tell yourself you are right, fine -but you are talking about what you are talking about, not what we were talking about.
What is the point in trying to continue?

It appears that you don't. You earlier said you had never heard of it. And I am discussing. Do you understand how this simple concept negates the flood myth?
 
Top