Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[katiemygirl]

I would like to take a moment to compliment Kolibri on the way he writes his posts. He is always respectful and shows great tolerance for others' beliefs. He never attacks the characters of people, yet he stands his ground and defends his beliefs. He and I disagree vehemently, but I consider him a friend, even though I've never met him. He is the kind of person I would like being around. He is a role model for the rest of us!

 

[Kolibri]

Answer: They do not!

I challenge you to prove that Jesus lied.

Never could Jesus lie and still be the 'faithful and true witness' (Re 3:14)
However it our understanding of what he meant can be in error.

It is not what he said that is being challenged.
Never am I challenging what is actually said, unless there is solid reasons to question how a verse is rendered.
And that is not the case in these passages.
Well with Zech 12:10 there is manuscript evidence to go both ways, but it really does not change the fact that Mt 25:40 clarifies the meaning if one sticks to the word "me."

 

[katiemygirl]

This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel and his Repurchaser,
Jehovah of armies:
'I am the first and I am the last.
There is no God but me.'
- Isaiah 44:6
The last line is important. It shows that this meaning of first and last to be the same meaning as the title Alpha and Omega - always and forever "God Almighty". (Ex 6:3; Re 1:8; 22:13)
Jesus being titled First and Last is for a different reason - you can see this from the follow-up phrase "and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever."
He was first to be resurrected to immortal spirit life (Col 1:18; Re 1:5)
He was the last to be resurrected by Jehovah directly. (Acts 13:33; 1 Thess 4:16)

Hi Kolibri. You cannot prove that the title given to God, first and last, means something different than what it means for Jesus. You can speculate, but that's it.

I direct you to Revelation 1:10. John is speaking.

"10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia:..."

Here is what you said about Isaiah 44:6. "The last line is important. It shows that this meaning of first and last to be the same meaning as the title Alpha and Omega - always and forever "God Almighty"

Now I ask you who the speaker is in Revelation 1:11?

Verse 12 tells gives us the answer.

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Jesus is the speaker. It is Jesus who says He is the Alpha and Omega in verse 10.

By your very own words Jesus is God Almighty.

Here are your words again.

"It shows that this meaning of first and last to be the same meaning as the title Alpha and Omega - always and forever "God Almighty"

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus is YHWH

YHWH says He is the First and the Last.
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;

Jesus says He, the one who was dead and is now alive forevermore is the First and the Last.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (Rev.1:17-18)

YHWH says He is the only savior.
I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.

The apostle Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit declared that Jesus was savior.
11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone. 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. (Luke 2:11)

YHWH speaking in Zech. 12:10 says He was pierced.
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

This can refer to no one other than Christ.

The evidence throughout the Bible is overwhelming. Jesus is YHWH!

That's true. Actually, 'trinity' is just a description of three presentations in the Godhead, it is just as much a Oneness, as a 'trinity'. In the common understanding of the trinity, I'd say it is incorrect though. They separate the father from Eshu. However, we don't have an indication of a separation. In fact Jesus says He is in the father, and we know the father through Him. That doesn't sound like a separate Entity.

 

[katiemygirl]

Never could Jesus lie and still be the 'faithful and true witness' (Re 3:14)
However it our understanding of what he meant can be in error.
It is not what he said that is being challenged.
Never am I challenging what is actually said, unless there is solid reasons to question how a verse is rendered.
And that is not the case in these passages.
Well with Zech 12:10 there is manuscript evidence to go both ways, but it really does not change the fact that Mt 25:40 clarifies the meaning if one sticks to the word "me."

Who is our? You said, "However it is our understanding."

I am happy that you are not challenging the plain words of John 14:7 and John 12:45. It is important for us to let God's word speak to us through His word, and not try to read things into it. Unfortunately, we all do that, even when we try hard not to. I guess it's because we hate to be wrong. I know I do.

I do not see how Matthew 25:40 can disprove Zechariah 12:10. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, especially when the language is plain. I don't know anything about the manuscript evidence, but I am opened to looking at it.

 

[Kolibri]

Hi Kolibri. You cannot prove that the title given to God, first and last, means something different than what it means for Jesus. You can speculate, but that's it.

I direct you to Revelation 1:10. John is speaking.

"10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia:..."

Here is what you said about Isaiah 44:6. "The last line is important. It shows that this meaning of first and last to be the same meaning as the title Alpha and Omega - always and forever "God Almighty"

Now I ask you who the speaker is in Revelation 1:11?

Verse 12 tells gives us the answer.

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Jesus is the speaker. It is Jesus who says He is the Alpha and Omega in verse 10.

By your very own words Jesus is God Almighty.

Here are your words again.

"It shows that this meaning of first and last to be the same meaning as the title Alpha and Omega - always and forever "God Almighty"

you quote of Re 1:11 seems misplaced. It appears via quotes that you may be piecing together parts of verse 8 and 11?

 

[katiemygirl]

That's true. Actually, 'trinity' is just a description of three presentations in the Godhead, it is just as much a Oneness, as a 'trinity'. In the common understanding of the trinity, I'd say it is incorrect though. They separate the father from Eshu. However, we don't have an indication of a separation. In fact Jesus says He is in the father, and we know the father through Him. That doesn't sound like a separate Entity.

Hi Disciple,
I don't pretend to understand the triune God, not for a minute. I just know that YHWH is presented to us in three different ways throughout the Scriptures. I don't like the word trinity. I don't use it. I think it has done nothing but divide the body of Christ for centuries, and I'm sure that can't be pleasing to Him. I believe God wants us to study the topic, but I highly doubt He wants us to fight and argue about it to the point where we divide. That's my $0.02 worth! For me, this forum is a form of study. It causes me to look at both sides.

 

[katiemygirl]

you quote of Re 1:11 seems misplaced. It appears via quotes that you may be piecing together parts of verse 8 and 11?

I quoted from NKJV directly. I will take a look at it to see if I did something wrong.

Here it is again. I think I did cut off the rest of verse 11, but I don't think that made any difference. It's just a listing of the seven churches.

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

 

[katiemygirl]

This is Isaiah 43:11 and yet let's look at Jude 25
"to the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might, and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen."

Here's how I break down Jude 25.
to the only God - there is only One God
to the only God our Savior - God is the only Savior
through Jesus Christ our Lord - God is our Savior through Jesus

This is true! No problem. I believe God is our savior through Jesus.

Now for Isaiah 43:11

I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.

And besides Me there is no savior. - God is the only savior.

Now let's toss Titus 2:11-13 into the mix.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ can be read in different ways.

1. Our great God will appear. And the Savior Jesus Christ will appear. Jesus is the savior. We will see both.

2. our great God and Savior is Jesus Christ and He will appear


For me, only #2 can be true.

What is "your" understanding here? Maybe you see it in a different way?

 

[Kolibri]

Who is our? ....

I do not see how Matthew 25:40 can disprove Zechariah 12:10. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, especially when the language is plain. I don't know anything about the manuscript evidence, but I am opened to looking at it.

Perhaps I should say 'anyones,' instead of 'our.' It is clear to anyone reading that yours and mine, that is our current understandings, are polar opposites.

Mt 25:40 does not contradict. It supplies understanding that Jehovah may have been speaking of the emotional pain he would experience when his son was pierced.
Likewise Zech 2:8 quotes Jehovah as saying "Whoever touches you touches the pupil of my eye." in reference to his repatriated people.

Zech 12:10 and John 19:37 “To the One whom,” - Greek translation of H.S., by Theodotion, second cent. C.E.

“to me whom.”
Masoretic Hebrew text found in Codex Leningrad B 19A as presented in Biblia Hebraica, by Kittel and BibliaHebraicaStuttgartensia, by Elliger and Rudolph
Latin Vulgate, by Jerome, c. 400 C.E. (Iuxta Vulgatam Versionem, Württembergische Bibelanstalt, Stuttgart, 1975).
--------------------------------
Rotherham’s translation offers in a footnote “him” as an acceptable reading in place of “me”. So does the American Standard Version. Some modern translations, such as Moffatt and An American Translation and Revised Standard Version, use “him” instead of “me” in the main body of the text itself.

 

[JayJayDee]

Please stop making all of your posts personal. You can attack my beliefs, but I'm asking you to stop insulting me. Your comment above is not so bad by itself, but couple it with the many personal comments from all of your other posts, and it becomes an attack. If you really are trying to lead people to Christ, you're going about it the wrong way. Try following apostle Paul's advice.

Well, I 'm sorry, but it is very difficult to separate you from your anger. Read your own posts and see what I am seeing. I am not "attacking" you...I never have. I made a statement that I believe was obvious to all.

If you want seasoning, then please try to season your own responses. I cannot separate you from your words.

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col. 4:6

You don't see hypocrisy in that statement? I am supposed to do that but you don't see the need in your own responses?

Now how about answering my question.

You claim Jesus is a god.

If there is but only ONE TRUE GOD, then does this make Jesus a false god?

No, as Kolibri has explained very well, "there are many gods and many lords" as Paul stated. But he differentiated between "one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ". He separated these two, he did not combine them.

"Theos" is the term used in Greek for anyone viewed as a person in power. (In heaven or on earth)

Jesus himself said this when accused by the Jews of blasphemy....

John 10:31-39..."The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken, do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp."

The title "god" is not exclusive to the Father nor to Jesus. Human judges were called "gods" by Jehovah himself. Can you understand this?

The unity of Father and son is a unity shared by the anointed disciples of Christ as he said in John 17:21-22..."that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. And the glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one just as we are one"

We do not see Jesus as a rival god to his Father and neither did he.
He knew his place and so do we. We will never put another being, no matter how wonderful he is, in equal place with Jesus' own God and Father.

No dissertation intended....just the facts.

 

[Kolibri]

Titus 2:11-14
We follow the understanding that it is 2 individuals but I question the word choice of "appearing"; the Greek word here, I believe translates as "manifestation" which has more of a flavor or "make public." whre as "appearing" is more of "become visible or noticeable." and much easier to misunderstand.

Re-quoting here so you see what I commonly see:

"For the undeserved kindness of God has been manifested, bringing salvation to all sorts of people. It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, (or "this present age.") while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to set us free (Lit., "to ransom us; to redeem us.") from every sort of lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people who are his own special possession, zealous for fine works."

 

[Kolibri]

KJV and NKJV include this 4th occurance of Alpha and Omega that does not belong in Re 1:11. This part of the verse is spurious.

"saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches:..." - American Standard Version

ALPHA AND OMEGA


These are the names of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet and are used as a title three times in the book of Revelation. The additional occurrence of this phrase in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.

While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”

The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.

The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”

The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.
- Alpha and Omega — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[katiemygirl]

="JayJayDee, post: 4125294, member: 41110"]Well, I 'm sorry, but it is very difficult to separate you from your anger. Read your own posts and see what I am seeing. I am not "attacking" you...I never have. I made a statement that I believe was obvious to all.
If you want seasoning, then please try to season your own responses. I cannot separate you from your words.

Jay Jay. I am not angry, nor desperate. That may be how you are interpreting it because you don't like what I am saying about what you believe. But I have not attacked your character ever to my recollection. My attacks are against Watchtower teachings and will continue to be because I believe they are false.

I will be extremely careful to NEVER insult you personally. All I am asking is that you do the same. If I have insulted you personally, then I apologize for that right now. I have been working extremely hard to not be offensive to anyone on the forum. I'm trying to keep the "YOU" out of my conversations, and keeping my comments to JW's and the Watchtower in general. If I cross the line, then please let me know, and I will make it right. It is not my intention to hurt people here. I just want a good discussion about the facts and what the Scriptures say.

The title "god" is not exclusive to the Father nor to Jesus. Human judges were called "gods" by Jehovah himself. Can you understand this?

Jay Jay, I am not an idiot. I have a Master's Degree in Language and was a public school teacher for twenty years. I think I can understand anything you write. This is an example of condescension and attacking character. It's subtle, but it's there. So please, think before you write, and I will do the same.

 

[katiemygirl]

KJV and NKJV include this 4th occurance of Alpha and Omega that does not belong in Re 1:11. This part of the verse is spurious.

"saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches:..." - American Standard Version

ALPHA AND OMEGA


These are the names of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet and are used as a title three times in the book of Revelation. The additional occurrence of this phrase in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.

While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”

The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.

The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”

The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.
- Alpha and Omega — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

No offense Kolibri, but I do not accept anything from Watchtower. They are notorious for twisting and changing information to support their theology. I would much rather read your own personal thoughts and ideas. Those I respect.

 

[Kolibri]

I will go back and highlight in green my words.

 

[katiemygirl]

Titus 2:11-14
We follow the understanding that it is 2 individuals but I question the word choice of "appearing"; the Greek word here, I believe translates as "manifestation" which has more of a flavor or "make public." whre as "appearing" is more of "become visible or noticeable." and much easier to misunderstand.

Re-quoting here so you see what I commonly see:

"For the undeserved kindness of God has been manifested, bringing salvation to all sorts of people. It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, (or "this present age.") while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to set us free (Lit., "to ransom us; to redeem us.") from every sort of lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people who are his own special possession, zealous for fine works."

You are basically giving me Watchtower understanding.

Time to call it a day. I've been at this for way too long today, and have other things to do. Till next time.

May the grace of our Lord be with you,

Katie

 

[katiemygirl]

I will go back and highlight in green my words.

Okay thank you.

 

[Yes]

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;

1Co 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

The "so-called gods/idols" of the pagans are unreal. The real "gods" and "lords," in the human form are like the “the five lords of the Philistines –Jos 13:3”, and “I said, Ye are gods, -Psalm 82:6”, they are all subordinate to the one supreme God whom alone we should recognize. To Christians, there is only "one God, the Father," and "one Lord, Jesus Christ."

this same argument should get the same answer.

Eph 4:5 There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 and there is only one God and Father, who is over us all and in us all and living through us all.

Jesus was explaining that being called a god was not in of itself blasphemy. The prophets that God worked miracles through were called gods However, the Pharisees and teachers of the law did not like it that Jesus was making himself equal to God.

Jesus is God come in the flesh. That is what the scripture plainly and clearly says.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and

 

[Kolibri]

You are basically giving me Watchtower understanding.

Time to call it a day. I've been at this for way too long today, and have other things to do. Till next time.

May the grace of our Lord be with you,

Katie

Many Bibles use the word 'appear' instead of 'manifest' and their meanings are similar. one could be a subset of another.
But it is not really a topic of Jesus is God. Does this appearing come as too the naked eye or with eyes of understanding? would be the thread for this..if we had one.

Titus 2:11-14Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age,
13 waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
14 who did give himself for us, that he might ransom us from all lawlessness, and might purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works;