Can I be Jewish for Halloween?

[Aquitaine]

But clearly, it could be a thing. Would it be offensive if Eddie Murphy made good on what he says in the video? (this also ignores the tradition of passing which takes no, or minimal make up)

I'd find it potentially funny, at worst a little odd, but no, personally I wouldn't be offended by it. One of my favourite comedians routinely has a "white guy" skit.

 

[gsa]

A rabbi costume?

Let
Let's play "Spot the Rabbi!" Which one is wearing the Rabbi garb?

Right. The problem is, we do allow for priests, evangelical pastors, monks, etc. to be the subject of Halloween costuming. I think that is qualitatively different than dressing as a member of an ethnic group (at least, an extant ethnic group; if someone wants to claim that they are an ancient Roman by wearing a toga or stola I guess there's no real harm).

And I am totally unwilling to give religion a pass or free rein on claiming that it is somehow offensive to do this. It would lead to absurd results, like Wiccans protesting witch outfits or Satanists protesting satanic ones. And I like the spirit of Halloween too much to offer such silly concessions.

 

[gsa]

Not a single one of my rabbi's ever looked like those. But then again, most Halloween costumes are far removed from the reality of what they are attempting to portray. They are at best, characterizations.

Indeed. But dressing up with the intent to represent a rabbi or other religious leader, however prone it is to stereotyping, is a different enterprise than attempting to dress up as a member of a cultural/ethnic group.

 

[gsa]

If we knew for certain that they were his relatives, wouldn't we just kill them?

Because they would be Amalekites?

 

[Flankerl]

That style of dress has spread far beyond a single village.

Which is incredibly horrible.
Like seriously you live in the middle east and dress like you live in the Pale. That's not okay.

But I am positive that it will change, in the next 500 years or so.

 

[rosends]

I'd find it potentially funny, at worst a little odd, but no, personally I wouldn't be offended by it. One of my favourite comedians routinely has a "white guy" skit.

So what is your explanation for a negative reaction to the opposite (black face) if the intent is the same?

 

[rosends]

Because they would be Amalekites?

yup. Point is, we don't know.

 

[rosends]

Right. The problem is, we do allow for priests, evangelical pastors, monks, etc. to be the subject of Halloween costuming. I think that is qualitatively different than dressing as a member of an ethnic group (at least, an extant ethnic group; if someone wants to claim that they are an ancient Roman by wearing a toga or stola I guess there's no real harm).

And I am totally unwilling to give religion a pass or free rein on claiming that it is somehow offensive to do this. It would lead to absurd results, like Wiccans protesting witch outfits or Satanists protesting satanic ones. And I like the spirit of Halloween too much to offer such silly concessions.

OK, so make it OK to dress up like an occupation, and not a people. Maybe then it would be inaccurate but less offensive.

 

[Aquitaine]

So what is your explanation for a negative reaction to the opposite (black face) if the intent is the same?

Because (to my knowledge) the Blackface acts were about portraying negative exaggerated stereotypes about blacks, not merely depicting blacks.

 

[rosends]

Because (to my knowledge) the Blackface acts were about portraying negative exaggerated stereotypes about blacks, not merely depicting blacks.

But that's what they WERE. Is my current intent able to supersede the historical uses? If Eddie Murphy's goal was to infiltrate and mislead white people, then would white face become offensive?

 

[Aquitaine]

But that's what they WERE. Is my current intent able to supersede the historical uses? If Eddie Murphy's goal was to infiltrate and mislead white people, then would white face become offensive?

I wouldn't find it offensive, no.

For the record, I still maintain a separation between Race and Religion here. We disagree, but I still think beliefs are voluntary, whilst Race isn't.

 

[gsa]

OK, so make it OK to dress up like an occupation, and not a people. Maybe then it would be inaccurate but less offensive.

Right.

 

[rosends]

I wouldn't find it offensive, no.

For the record, I still maintain a separation between Race and Religion here. We disagree, but I still think beliefs are voluntary, whilst Race isn't.

In Judaism, there is less distinction between religion and belief and none between religion and race.

 

[Akivah]

Which is incredibly horrible.
Like seriously you live in the middle east and dress like you live in the Pale. That's not okay.

But I am positive that it will change, in the next 500 years or so.

I have issues with it, but I wouldn't call it "horrible". It is common enough that many non-Jews think that all Jews dress that way.

As it has been a style for only the past 200 years or so, I imagine that the style could easily change in the next 500 years.

 

[Curious George]

^ Sophomoric nonsense. There is a difference between challenging opinions and childishly trolling for controversy.

Again, if I have been disrespectful or trolling for controversy I would expect you to call me out.

I would suggest that randomly jumping in and saying something is "sophomoric nonsense" without an ability to articulate exactly how something is sophomoric nonsense is more akin to "trolling for controversy."

 

[Curious George]

Most non-Jews do not even understand what a kipah (yarmulke) and tzitzit really are, what they are for, and what they represent. They have no sense of context and meaning for these things. Which, ordinarily, is fine: non-Jews have no occasions which call for the wearing of these items, and thus no need to understand them. But when they put them on in order to portray either a legitimate Jewish character or merely a Jewish stereotype, then the need arises, out of respect for Jewish culture.

There is, indeed, a difference between a trained actor attempting to bring a Jewish character to life with authenticity and respect, and a random person deciding that they can dress up as a Jew for Halloween, as though "Jew" was no different than "spaceman" or "zombie" or "sexy nurse." That is not an instance of an artist trying to make a Jewish character live, that is an instance of someone stereotyping for a lark.

The fact that the person doing so may claim to have no offense intended does not make it better-- in some ways, it only makes it worse, as it reflects not only lack of understanding of the clothing or ritual items used as "costume props," and ignorance of the culture that produced them, but an ignorance of history, which is full of non-Jews exoticizing Jews, appropriating Jewish culture, and in various ways demeaning Jewish identity. All of which is in the background of someone feeling completely free to dress up as a Jew for Halloween.

Some others have brought up the argument that people sometimes dress up as members of different other cultures-- Greeks, Scots, American Indians, etc., and that is not seen as problematic. I cannot say whether it is or is not seen as problematic: I am not a member of those cultures, and I cannot speak for them. I would personally imagine that probably some members of those cultures, at least, do take offense at stereotypes of their cultures being used by non-members. But I do not know for certain, and it is not my business to try and rise to their defense unasked. What I do know about is that it is offensive to dress up as a Jew for Halloween. And not being able to see how it is disrespectful is, if anything, merely indicative of the degree of how devalued Jewish culture still is among non-Jews.

So, if I don't see how it is disrespectful then I have been warped by non-Jews? That seems to beg the question.

In this post you make the connection that the Halloween party equates Jew to spaceman or zombie or sexy nurse. Well, I would extend that and point out that it also equates Jew to native American, or Egyptian, or Greek, or Roman, or Scott. You say that these latter roles are cultures who might also find offense. But my real struggle here is to understand why anyone would find offense if someone dressed as someone from their culture or an era of their culture.
You talk about the historical concepts of non Jews extocizing Jews (though I would argue there is a sub culture in Judaism which extocizes Jews), appropriating Jewish culture, and demeaning the Jewish identity. And instances where this is the case should be pointed out. And because of this history we should probably regard all portrayal of Jews with a little more scrutiny than we might portrayals of Romans. But if a portrayal can pass this scrutiny, then why take offense?

You suggest that the need arises to understand the meaning when a non-Jew puts to use Jewish cultural items out of a respect for Jewish culture. While I understand this sentiment to a degree, I think it can be taken to ridiculous degrees as well. Certainly, one should have a general awareness of culture specific elements if one is trying to portray someone of that culture. Otherwise it would be to easy to disrespect an element of that culture unwittingly and if one is attempting to portray someone there is certainly an obligation to portray that person correctly. But why can someone who takes these steps not make such a portrayal?

I do not think it is a stereotype to wear a yarmulke. I don't think someone wearing one, even for a Halloween party, inaccurately portrays a Jew. I don't think someone is making an offensive stereotype, and I don't see how any of this automatically leads to disrespect. I think the worry is really over how the person acts, and what they do, what they say, and how the portrayal is carried out. The act of wearing a yarmulke to a Halloween party is not wrong. I a Jewish person wore a yarmulke to a Halloween party would they be wrong? If not, then it can only be the wearing a yarmulke as a costume to a Halloween party that is wrong. But we agree that it is not wrong for someone to wear a yarmulke in a movie. So, we are left with Halloween being the problem. You made the case of treating a Jewish identity as if were similar to spaceman, or sexy nurse. But this isn't really the case, because movie costumes are the same thing.

Earlier you noted it would be okay for a non Jew to wear a Jewish costume at an event where people were dressing up to honor different cultures of the world.

Here we then see the difference is either what the other people are wearing or intent. Since, we have not discussed the person's intent at the Halloween party, I am left thinking that the big difference is what other people are wearing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Again, if I have been disrespectful or trolling for controversy ...

Work on reading with comprehension.

 

[Curious George]

Just a couple of notes.
You mentioned " If reasonable minds can differ, then it is offensive. My trouble is, I am not sure it is reasonable for someone to find offense in this costume, without something more." That makes it your subjective sense of what is reasonable thus blurring the line ever further. I don't think that there is ever a clear line because every individual carries within him the potential to react in myriad ways at any given moment. Does he need to justify a particular one to some transcendent and objective standard? The American legal system often uses a reasonableness standard (as does Jewish law, in its own way) but that standard, though we claim to know it when we see it, is very hard to quantify. You don't know if it is reasonable to find offense at this costume. If I say it is, is one of us wrong even though each of us is establishing a threshold of "reasonable" that makes sense?

A Halloween party is not about reverence. Using religious imagery for the entertainment of others devalues that imagery. I don't think that anyone, when asked "why did you dress up as a Chassidic Jew?" would say "in order to display my respect for their deep seated traditions and beliefs." If the answer is anything but that, then I think that the possibility of disrespect creeps in. Portraying a character on stage in a fictional construct is different because it is an attempt (I would hope) at creating a microcosm of the real world -- the actor is not dressing up as, he is "pretending in a fictional universe to be" a Jew for the sake of a story telling experience.

The other issue, that of the inherent religious value of the item (which applies to the tzitzit, not the kippah AFAIK) points out that the item isn't just clothing, but a thing used for a religious ritual, and using it out of that context debases the object. The concept of holiness, especially of an object, is tough to explain and even tougher to understand, but a Jewish child is taught from a young age not to put certain books on the floor, or to stand when certain items are around, or not to be undressed in certain places. Taking something which would be part of that system of holiness and using it as part of a costume seems to cheapen it.

And there is, I still feel, this sense of reductionism where someone wearing that costume would be cashing in on a ridiculous shorthand and feeding in to this culturally sloppy stereotype of "what does a Jew look like?" If I were to ask someone wearing that costume, "do you think that that costume represents ME as a Jew?" He'd say "Oh, of course not...I meant those other Jews." So I'd point to 1,000 others, each not looking like that. He'd finally say "Well, you know what I mean." I'd say "I know what you mean when you use bad grammar, but that doesn't mean I won't correct you when you use it."

While I understand your point of subjectivity, my point was that discussion can help come to a meeting of the minds, and even to the point where I can walk away understanding why it is reasonable to take offense (not just why someone takes offense) we will have reached an agreement.

I understand your point with subjective thoughts but there is certainly a medium that most people should understand.

I certainly understand your concern with stereotypes. But I don't think with the limits we have put on this costume we are in danger, without more, of stereotyping.

Imagine you approach a man at a Halloween party and notice him wearing a yarmulke. You ask where his costume is and he touches the yarmulke. You then ask, "what are you supposed to be?"
He responds, "a Jewish person."
You then say, "do you think that costume represents ME?"
He responds, "no, of course not. Not all Jewish people are the same, I am sorry you feel they are."

 

[Curious George]

Work on reading with comprehension.

Sorry, that is junior year.

My challenges are not trolling attempts. Nor am I looking for controversy. I will assume @dust1n placed this here so people can discuss and debate in the spirit of the forums. That you assume an ulterior motive without articulating why seems to cry out for stirring up controversy more than him placing a discussion where all can respond.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey dust1n, it's been a while. How's life?

My suggestion is to not do it. The reason is that Halloween costume parties, if I understand it well, are about scary/evil/horror/weird costumes somewhere between the lines. I think getting dressed in Jewish outfit could hurt the feelings of some members of the Jewish community, depending on the understanding of what Halloween stands for.

An Arab traditional outfit with a turban and a broad sword would be a better choice to freak people out. Just make sure of the heavy beard and angry face