Can God make a Spherical Cube?

[Elvendon]

This is a very important issue - concerning the nature of both omnipotence and God. Simply put - it asks if God is able to do the logically impossible - in other words, if he can create a spherical cube, an invisible pink unicorn, or make 1+1=4. I am interested to know what your own opinions and your religious traditions have to say on this matter.

I share the Aquinian view - that God is only as omnipotent as is logically consistent and possible - God is not limited by logic however, as logic is a divine trait in and of itself, and therefore only God is limiting himself in order to appear "perfect" with respects to his own nature (i.e. he does not correct his logical limitations as being illogical is an imperfection.) Therefore, God can do almost anything, but he can't make spherical squares. He is also confined to behaving in a logical fashion - which means that his omnibenevolence is not threatened by the existence of evil (evil is a logical neccesity.)

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Simon Gnosis]

This is a very important issue - concerning the nature of both omnipotence and God. Simply put - it asks if God is able to do the logically impossible - in other words, if he can create a spherical cube, an invisible pink unicorn, or make 1+1=4. I am interested to know what your own opinions and your religious traditions have to say on this matter.What do the rest of you think?

I guess 'God' can do anything the rules of the universe permit.
We just don't know all the rules...yet.

 

[michel]

This is a very important issue - concerning the nature of both omnipotence and God. Simply put - it asks if God is able to do the logically impossible - in other words, if he can create a spherical cube, an invisible pink unicorn, or make 1+1=4. I am interested to know what your own opinions and your religious traditions have to say on this matter.

I share the Aquinian view - that God is only as omnipotent as is logically consistent and possible - God is not limited by logic however, as logic is a divine trait in and of itself, and therefore only God is limiting himself in order to appear "perfect" with respects to his own nature (i.e. he does not correct his logical limitations as being illogical is an imperfection.) Therefore, God can do almost anything, but he can't make spherical squares. He is also confined to behaving in a logical fashion - which means that his omnibenevolence is not threatened by the existence of evil (evil is a logical neccesity.)

What do the rest of you think?

Good question, the answer to which has to be pure conjecture.

Taking a personal stance, I would say 'yes', God could. Not on our world, now, because humanity has evolved along a certain path where spheres are round and cubes are cuboid.

The question we need ask is "If man was made extinct from the Earth, and the re-introduced by evolution - with all the exact same circumstances that led to the evolution of the smallest life cell to a human being, would the resultant human being be exactly the same as the one we have now ?, and would our world, our science, our morals be the same?"

I can see the non-theists saying 'not necessarilly', while the theists who believe intrinsically in the fact that or nature and morality is given to us by God would say 'most likely' (i'm assuming here, but I think I might be right).

 

[bigvindaloo]

This is a very important issue - concerning the nature of both omnipotence and God. Simply put - it asks if God is able to do the logically impossible - in other words, if he can create a spherical cube, an invisible pink unicorn, or make 1+1=4. I am interested to know what your own opinions and your religious traditions have to say on this matter.

I share the Aquinian view - that God is only as omnipotent as is logically consistent and possible - God is not limited by logic however, as logic is a divine trait in and of itself, and therefore only God is limiting himself in order to appear "perfect" with respects to his own nature (i.e. he does not correct his logical limitations as being illogical is an imperfection.) Therefore, God can do almost anything, but he can't make spherical squares. He is also confined to behaving in a logical fashion - which means that his omnibenevolence is not threatened by the existence of evil (evil is a logical neccesity.)

What do the rest of you think?

I haven't looked into these issues for a while, but at first glance this logical God corresponds to a God of everyday perception. But what does a cube look like in the four dimensional landscape we actually live in (including time). We do not perceive this. But we can imagine it . And this imagery is logical. How does a logical God begin to construct shapes over more than four dimensions? Saul Kripke discussed rules like 1+1 = 4 in his book on Wittgenstein, rules and private language. I cannot go into this here, but suffice to say I am convinced there is no logical reason why 1+ 1 cannot equal 4 having read this. Interesting thread.

 

[Simon Gnosis]

Taking a personal stance, I would say 'yes', God could. Not on our world, now, because humanity has evolved along a certain path where spheres are round and cubes are cuboid.

Our world?

Cubes are cubes and spheres are spheres throughout the entire universe.

Surely?

I don't understand your answer

 

[Simon Gnosis]

I haven't looked into these issues for a while, but at first glance this logical God corresponds to a God of everyday perception. But what does a cube look like in the four dimensional landscape we actually live in (including time). We do not perceive this. But we can imagine it . And this imagery is logical. How does a logical God begin to construct shapes over more than four dimensions? Saul Kripke discussed rules like 1+1 = 4 in his book on Wittgenstein, rules and private language. I cannot go into this here, but suffice to say I am convinced there is no logical reason why 1+ 1 cannot equal 4 having read this. Interesting thread.

1+1 = 2 not 4 ever.

The rules of of our decimal mathematic system depend upon it.


1+1=4 is an illogical absurdity, 1+1 in binary is 01 but thats because we are using a different numerical base.
Don't forget that all math is a human invention, and is purely circumstantial of the way our minds operate, math is simply a tool not a fundamental truth.

 

[bigvindaloo]

1+1 = 2 not 4 ever.

The rules of of our decimal mathematic system depend upon it.


1+1=4 is an illogical absurdity, 1+1 in binary is 01 but thats because we are using a different numerical base.
Don't forget that all math is a human invention, and is purely circumstantial of the way our minds operate, math is simply a tool not a fundamental truth.

Our agreement depends upon it, no more.

 

[Simon Gnosis]

Our agreement depends upon it, no more.

Of course.
Thats my point.

Math is simply an artificial tool we use to determine quantities and values.
Saying 1+1 could be 4 is simply hyperbole.

 

[Elvendon]

Very interesting. The reason for my asking is that there are two possibilites for God and his omnipotence being illogical, both have profound implications for the omnipotence paradox.

1) God is logically consistent: If God is, in fact, logically consistent (i.e. no square circles here bub), then that means his seemingly ineffectual response towards evil (and evil's very existence) can be argued around - for example:

Premise 1: In order for a being in this universe to be perfect (morally), the being must have free-will - if it cannot decide to do evil things, then it internally is not actually devoted to goodness - rather it is coerced into doing good things by it's nature.

Premise 2: God desires humanity to be perfect.

Premise 3: Humans seem to behave best or be most moral when faced with evil or adversity.

Premise 4: God wanted to create the human race exactly as it is.

Therefore:

In order to humanity to become truly perfect, we need to be exposed to evil, and have free-will to decide between evil and good. As God is logically consistent, he is forced to allow these things to occur if he wants the end (i.e. human perfection) to come to pass.

2) God is completely illogical: God, as a being, has absolutely no logical constraints whatsoever. He can make square spheres, 2D cubes, etc. etc. This also solves the omnipotence paradox, as God is logically inconsistent, so his existence is not ruled out by it's being illogical - despite the evidence of evil and so on. God can claim (rightly) to be omnibenevolent and yet kill people for no reason and allow evil to exist.

Now, the God in 2) would need to be both mentally and physically illogical - a logical being cannot comprehend illogic, so in order to comprehend and actualise his illogical capabilities, 2) God must have an illogical mind.

However, the illogical mind of 2) God creates problems. By making him illogical, God is essentially a madman - any attempt we make to reason with him, understand him or work alongside him is doomed to failure - there is no way we can influence his behaviour - it's illogical nature would render it lacking a pattern. Therefore, such a God would be impossible for us to empathise with, and so such a God would be utterly pointless - it would be as if he didn't exist.

The above two conjectures of God's nature are fine. What one cannot say is that God is logical in his mind and can do anything at all, even illogical things. That simply cannot be, as it defies logic where logic should apply.

Since the 2) God appears to be such a horrific prospect, I personally accept the 1) God by elimination. It is both an intellectually viable and thoroughly spiritually satisfying theory of deity and thus I accept it.

Thoughts?

 

[michel]

Our world?

Cubes are cubes and spheres are spheres throughout the entire universe.

Surely?

I don't understand your answer

Sorry, I should have said Universe, not world. I am saying that the way our universe is, no, God could not produce a spherical cube. Had our universe 'evolved ' differently, maybe a cube could have been sperical.

(Simply because the way we see things now is because of our understanding of physical properties of objects, and the way our life is 'arranged'). Create another universe, make sure that people have an entirely different way of looking at object, who knows what would be 'normal' ?..............

 

[Simon Gnosis]

Sorry, I should have said Universe, not world. I am saying that the way our universe is, no, God could not produce a spherical cube. Had our universe 'evolved ' differently, maybe a cube could have been sperical.

(Simply because the way we see things now is because of our understanding of physical properties of objects, and the way our life is 'arranged'). Create another universe, make sure that people have an entirely different way of looking at object, who knows what would be 'normal' ?..............

Ah fair enough!

Whats in a name anyway?

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Very interesting. The reason for my asking is that there are two possibilites for God and his omnipotence being illogical, both have profound implications for the omnipotence paradox.

1) God is logically consistent: If God is, in fact, logically consistent (i.e. no square circles here bub), then that means his seemingly ineffectual response towards evil (and evil's very existence) can be argued around - for example:

Premise 1: In order for a being in this universe to be perfect (morally), the being must have free-will - if it cannot decide to do evil things, then it internally is not actually devoted to goodness - rather it is coerced into doing good things by it's nature.

Premise 2: God desires humanity to be perfect.

Premise 3: Humans seem to behave best or be most moral when faced with evil or adversity.

Premise 4: God wanted to create the human race exactly as it is.

Though I'm agnostic and don't believe in free will, when I do indulge in grand metaphysical explanations of the world I come to something strikingly similar to this. Very interesting to see it Elvendon.

 

[bigvindaloo]

Of course.
Thats my point.

Math is simply an artificial tool we use to determine quantities and values.
Saying 1+1 could be 4 is simply hyperbole.

And a God of agreement is the only logical acceptable possibility?

 

[Simon Gnosis]

And a God of agreement is the only logical acceptable possibility?

Eh?

Logic dictates that any number is a quantative description.
If I have 1 apple (a singular apple) and I am given another then I have a pair of apples or 2 apples, never in ten trillion billion years will giving me an apple when I have already one apple amount to four apples.
Regardless of who agrees with me or not.
I will percieve 2 (ie one and apple and another apple) apple shaped objects not 4.

Math is logic in language form.
Logic that is based on the observations made about the real world.

 

[bigvindaloo]

Eh?

Logic dictates that any number is a quantative description.
If I have 1 apple (a singular apple) and I am given another then I have a pair of apples or 2 apples, never in ten trillion billion years will giving me an apple when I have already one apple amount to four apples.
Regardless of who agrees with me or not.
I will percieve 2 (ie one and apple and another apple) apple shaped objects not 4.

Math is logic in language form.
Logic that is based on the observations made about the real world.

Yes and you are applying a logic that I agree with to real world apples. If I think 1+ 1 =4 and someone agrees with me, if we get apples add them and get four why are we logically wrong? Have a look at Kripke. In the context of this discussion about a logical God, I think we agree that logic is a human construction. So any discussion about a logical or illogical God is also a human construction based on agreement if it is to make sense.

 

[Halcyon]

I don't think God makes anything per se, It sets up the rules by which universes are governed and these rules define the material construct and thus the logic of each universes' inhabitants.

God could break the rules of the universe and create a spherical cube, but what would be the point? Seeing such a thing would nullify our logic and probably send us insane, if not kill us. God would need to quite lierally rip the fabric of the universe to pieces to accomplish this pointless feat of creation.

In other universes which are governed by different rules, i am sure spherical cubes already exist, and have fulfilling lives.

 

[Willamena]

This is a very important issue - concerning the nature of both omnipotence and God. Simply put - it asks if God is able to do the logically impossible - in other words, if he can create a spherical cube, an invisible pink unicorn, or make 1+1=4. I am interested to know what your own opinions and your religious traditions have to say on this matter.

I differentiate between god and the Image of God as portrayed by our imaginations. As an agnostic, I believe we cannot truly know anything about god. The Image of God, on the other hand, has the role of helping us learn about and understand our immaterial (conceptual, if you prefer) selves. Omnipower in that sense is the capacity to consciously act, something both we and the Image of God possess.

Your question, then, does not describe god but present an Image of God of our own device, and we mortal beings are subject to logic in order to make sense of things. Saying that God can or cannot do something logically impossible is admitting that we make sense of things logically.

(Sorry if this doens't make sense, it's too early in the morning.)

 

[Simon Gnosis]

Yes and you are applying a logic that I agree with to real world apples. If I think 1+ 1 =4 and someone agrees with me, if we get apples add them and get four why are we logically wrong? Have a look at Kripke. In the context of this discussion about a logical God, I think we agree that logic is a human construction. So any discussion about a logical or illogical God is also a human construction based on agreement if it is to make sense.

Logic is not the same as consensus.

Logic is a human construction, however if you asked a technologically advanced alien from where ever what 2+2 = then I believe the alien would (being aware you are using base 10 math) communicate to you that the answer was 4.

4 means four ones it never ever means anything else.
No matter who you talk to, even God.
The entire foundation of math is based on the concept of 1.
All other numbers are composites of 1.

Thus not even God can get 4 apples out of two.
That would be contrary to the laws of energy conservation.

 

[bigvindaloo]

Logic is not the same as consensus.

Logic is a human construction, however if you asked a technologically advanced alien from where ever what 2+2 = then I believe the alien would (being aware you are using base 10 math) communicate to you that the answer was 4.

4 means four ones it never ever means anything else.
No matter who you talk to, even God.
The entire foundation of math is based on the concept of 1.
All other numbers are composites of 1.

Thus not even God can get 4 apples out of two.
That would be contrary to the laws of energy conservation.

One can be a combination of an infinite number of other combinations of units of arbitrary value. We need to narrow down this discussion to evaluation of private rules of logic. I believe these are impossible. You can counter but not without considering Kripke. I cannot disagree with this great philosopher.

 

[bigvindaloo]

I don't think God makes anything per se, It sets up the rules by which universes are governed and these rules define the material construct and thus the logic of each universes' inhabitants.

God could break the rules of the universe and create a spherical cube, but what would be the point? Seeing such a thing would nullify our logic and probably send us insane, if not kill us. God would need to quite lierally rip the fabric of the universe to pieces to accomplish this pointless feat of creation.

In other universes which are governed by different rules, i am sure spherical cubes already exist, and have fulfilling lives.

In another universe if we think outside the square we might have a full(filled) circle?