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Can God Be Proved Mathematically?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by sun rise, Oct 4, 2022.

  1. sun rise

    sun rise Śvāna Dharma
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    Heavy lifting here but a fun lift. I've excerpted only part of the Gödel discussion.

    Can God Be Proved Mathematically?

    Who would have thought about God as an apt topic for an essay about mathematics? Don’t worry, the following discussion is still solidly grounded within an intelligible scientific framework....
    ...
    Has mathematics now finally disproved the claims of all atheists? As you probably already suspect, it has not. Gödel was indeed able to prove that the existence of something, which he defined as divine, necessarily follows from certain assumptions. But whether these assumptions are justified can be called into doubt.
    ...
    From a mathematical point of view, however, these thought experiments became really serious only through Gödel’s efforts. This is not too surprising: The scientist had already turned the subject on its head at the age of 25 by showing that mathematics always contains true statements that cannot be proved. In doing so, he made use of logic. This same logic also enabled him to prove the existence of God. Take a look at these 12 steps made up of a set of axioms (Ax), theorems (Th) and definitions (Df).
    [​IMG]
    It’s true that by means of the definitions and axioms, one can describe the set P mathematically:
    1. If a property belongs to the set, its negation is not included. The set is self-contained.
    2. The fact that the essence of the set has only the characteristics of the set is itself an element of the set. The set always has the same elements—independent of the situation. In this case, the situation is the mathematical model in which the set is contained.
    3. Existence is part of the set.
    4. If φ is part of the set, then the property of having φ as the essence of the set is also contained in the set.
    ...
    As it turns out, Gödel’s logical inferences are all correct—even computers have been able to prove that. Nevertheless, these inferences have also drawn criticism. Besides the axioms, which of course can be questioned (why should a world be divisible into “good” and “evil”?), Gödel does not give more details about what a positive property is
    ...
    For example, as logicians have shown, it is possible to construct cases where, by Gödel’s definition, there are more than 700 divine entities that differ in essence.
    ...
    This does not settle the final question of the existence of one (or more) divine beings. Whether mathematics is really the right way to answer this question is itself questionable—even if thinking about it is quite exciting.
    ...
     
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  2. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    Hence, the total meaning of this proof is zero, isn't it? The 100 pages of paper of Absolute Genius - and it is zero worth. How come?
     
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  3. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Gödel wasn't a scientist. He was a mathematician.

    And this exercise, at least as you have described it, seems to have nothing to do with God.
     
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  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    So the apparent answer is: "not yet."
     
  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I recall long ago looking into his "proof"
    of a god's existence. The problem lies
    in the premises, ie, they don't apply to
    the material world.
     
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Is the existence of G-d a Mathematical problem, please? Right?
    If not, why indulge in it, please? Right?

    Regards
     
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  7. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

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    As a pantheist existence proves God. As a syntheist evolution proves God. As a future omnitheist extropy proves God. I don't need complicated mathematical equations to prove something that I already know is there.
     
  8. sun rise

    sun rise Śvāna Dharma
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    Did you not read the OP? Or are you dismissing the attempt to prove God's existence mathematically as having nothing to do with God? To quote

    Can God Be Proved Mathematically?
     
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    What Godel does is not what he wants to do. What Godel confirms about God is that if God exists God is invisible. He proves that truth depends upon context and what is true may be false in a larger or different context. God being the outermost context we cannot obtain certainty about God.
     
  10. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

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    All words, numbers, symbols, etc., etc., exist to represent/model/describe reality, but they are not, and never will be that actual reality, actual reality is forever on the other side of concepts.. The whole purpose of religious meditation is to cease all conceptualization of reality and then and only then will reality be present, free from the conceptual representation of the ego mind. God realization only awaits those who give up the mental conditioned conceptualization of reality for the real thing.
     
  11. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    It seems Gödel himself wasn't happy with this proof as he never published it. (It was found in his legacy.)
    Apologists also don't like it as it is rarely cited.
    To the question if mathematics is the right tool to prove god, I'd say it is as philosophically rigorous as it gets. When you can do it with maths, it's hard to pick apart.
     
  12. Viker

    Viker Spirit in Black

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    A numerical stream that goes absolutely nowhere.
     
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  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    To build a mathematical model of something
    existing in reality, you can't know if the model
    works without comparing it with that reality.
    Whaddaya gots to test the model?
     
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  14. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Ah, so your description in the OP omitted the key points, namely that Gödel decided that (a ) everything can be assigned either a +ve or -ve property and (b ) he then defines "god" to be an entity possessing all possible +ve properties.

    There are obviously holes in these assumptions. But an interesting exercise, I suppose.
     
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