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Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by CG Didymus, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    The only references to rebellion in heaven come from the NT Revelation, which never occurred in Genesis. In fact, the rebellion never appeared in the Hebrew scriptures (or OT).

    So what's your point in bringing in up?

    What has my post to do with yours?
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    How do you know the garden was on a mountain? The text mentions no mountain.

    Pinpoint "where fig trees grow." Because fig trees grow throughout the region.

    How do you know the garden was near where plants were grown to make bread? Bread isn't mentioned in Genesis 2.

    There is no geographical evidence of four rivers, as the text mentions.

    These aren't facts you've given me. They're conclusions based upon pure conjecture -- not evidence actually found in the text. You'll have to do much better than that, if you want to posit that Gen. 2 is literal.
     
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    What you describe is more science fiction than science experiment.
     
  4. RichardParker

    RichardParker Member

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    God wouldn't create if he was all powerfull, in the first place.
    You make the protagonist of your story all powerfull, you have no plot, because you can't have any motivation for anything. An all-powerfull thing wouldn't even get any story started, let alone a universe ;)
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Why not?
     
  6. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    Written by whom?
    I think it remarkable such detail so many centuries before the possibilities could be shown as do-able.
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Do you think that Chester Gould was as remarkable coming up with a Sony product 79 years prior to its debut?
     
  8. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    Not in comparison to Genesis.
    The items and terms found in Genesis are thousands of years in advance of Man's discovery of such possibilities.
     
  9. Iti oj

    Iti oj Global warming is real and we need to act
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    What? That's the silliest thing I. Have heard. Your interoperation not based upon scripture is not miraculous... What is there that shouldn't be?
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    And looking back on Dick Tracy, we think of them as fantasy comic books -- even though the technology is presented 80 years before the fact.

    But looking back on Genesis, technology that hasn't yet come to fruition is science?
     
  11. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    There is no mountain or are no mountains mentioned in Genesis 2.

    The Tigris and Euphrates don't come from same mountatin. The sources of the two rivers are on different mountains, and they are only joined downstream in southern Iraq, before emptying in the Persian Gulf.

    Furthermore, prior to 1600 BCE, the Euphrates and Tigris were joined; they used to emptied out into the gulf separately and the gulf's shoreline was further inland. The ancient Sumerian city of Ur used to be a coastal city, situated on one side of the mouth of Euphrates. The shoreline was different in the 3rd millennium BCE, to the shoreline of when the exodus supposedly happened or when David and Solomon were kings.

    When Genesis 2 was composed in the 8th (or 9th) century BCE, the place (meaning rivers & gulf) was different to 4th and 3rd millennia BCE, geographically.

    And where were Pishon and Gihon? Where does Pishon and Gihon join the other 2 rivers? And where were Havilah and Cush?

    There are no agreement as to where Havilah and Cush were. Or whether Pishon or Gihon exist. How do you get fact when something, someone or something might not exist.

    It say there only one river in Eden (2:10) before dividing into 4 (2:11). And yet how is that possible?

    Again, there were no mountain mentioned in Genesis 2.

    Quite frankly, you are using words like "fact" or "evidence" way too loosely.
     
    #1851 gnostic, Oct 9, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2014
  12. greentwiga

    greentwiga Active Member

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    Are you saying that mankind did not invent farming by domesticating plants that need cultivating?

    Are you saying that the Younger Dryas was not a time of drought in the middle east far worse than any since?

    If you take these Specifics in the Bible and examine Google Earth, in between the Tigris and Euphrates, above the 200mm isohyut line and below the 7,000 foot line (both requirements for wheat and figs (or do you dougbt this?) There is only one place in the rather small region where four rivers can be said to come from the same place,(a snowpack), the Mountain, Karacadag. The Bible states that Before Adam, there were no plants needing cultivating (domesticated) and after him, there were, ie bread.

    Do you dispute that Heun, et al stated that wheat was domesticated on or extremely near Karacadag?
     
  13. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    I am saying what you posit is laughable.

    Your literal attempt is rather pathetic

    Fantasy


    Not fact.

    Provide Facts, if you can ever figure out what a FACT is :facepalm:
     
    #1853 outhouse, Oct 9, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2014
  14. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    The Eden in Ezekiel appears to be located in Lebanon.[11] "t appears that the Lebanon is an alternative placement in Phoenician myth (as in Ez 28,13, III.48) of the Garden of Eden",[12] and there are connections between paradise, the garden of Eden and the forests of Lebanon (possibly used symbolically) within prophetic writings.[13] Edward Lipinski and Peter Kyle McCarter have suggested that the Garden of the gods (Sumerian paradise), the oldest Sumerian version of the Garden of Eden, relates to a mountain sanctuary in the Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon ranges.[14]

    Garden of Eden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    the oldest Sumerian version of the Garden of Eden


    Can you actually read this?? or you just ignore people with real educations and follow fantasy and imagination instead???


    Do you understand what pre existing traditions even means :facepalm:
     
  15. RichardParker

    RichardParker Member

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    Because if you are all powerfull, you can't have any unfullfilled desires anymore.

    "I'm hungry? Nope, I'm not anymore!"
    "I'm bored? Nope. Not anymore!"
    "I want somebody to talk to? Nope, not anymore!"
    "I want somebody that worships me? Nope, not anymore!"

    There is no reason to do anything at all, because there is no "wanting" anything. Because "wanting" is the results of being in the position of currently not having something...
    Which is impossible, if you are all-powerfull, because you already have everything, at the tip of your finger.
     
  16. greentwiga

    greentwiga Active Member

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    Mountain: If you want to go to where waters divide between two rivers, you go to the watershed divide between them. It is a line between the rivers. The continental divide is the biggest one in America. For a division among four rivers, it has to be a higher point, a hill or mountain. At such a high point, there is a single point that divides the Mississippi, Colorado, and Rio Grande basins. Look on Google Maps and you'll see that only at Karacadag does the watershed divide into four rivers/streams. This includes the Khabur River (mentioned in the Bible) which winds before entering the Euphrates. The fourth river circles up past Cayonu past ancient sources of gold and flint, before entering the Tigris.

    Fig trees: Look at the center of wild diversity of the figs that became the domestic figs. They are in Syria but extend into Lebanon, Israel, and Southern Turkey. Scientists state they never made it over the Taurus Mountain barrrier before humans carried them because of the cold. They are also limited by a need for at least 250 mm of rain per year. There is only a small region that is between the Tigris and Euphrates that meets these requirements, and Karacadag is in the center. Wild figs grow in that region, and best in the center of it.

    Bread: Adam is condemned to eat bread by the sweat of his brow. only wheat has gluten and is used to make bread. Prior to the invention of the farming package, humans gathered wild wheat. This did not involve cultivation. They say that wheat grew so prolifically on Karacadag that one family could harvest enough in two weeks to feed themselves for a year. Thorns and thistles were not a problem. When wheat was altered (and they say it could have been altered in one generation.) It could not survive on its own. Scientists state there were two key genetic changes. After that, land had to be plowed, Thistles which grow in such disturbed land became a problem, and farming became much more labor intensive. A good starting point is Heun, et al. on the domestication of wheat. Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel has some interesting things to say about the invention of Agriculture. He shows how the region is a food producing Garden compared to the rest of the world.
     
  17. greentwiga

    greentwiga Active Member

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    The waters come from the same snowpack. The Waters that flow north wind all the way around a region of land. One of the earliest farming towns, Cayonu, is in that area. This could be Havilah. Placer gold and flint were both found in the area. The waters flowing south also wind dramaticaly. This is the Khabur. People have lived along the river for tens of thousands of years. A group such as the Kassites (KS and CSh are identical in Hebrew, when is is a translation from another tongue) could have been the Cush mentioned.

    I don't see how the Flandrian Transgression of the Persian Gulf in Sumerian times is relevant. At the time of Adam and Eve, the Persian Gulf was a river for up to half its length due to the still melting Ice Age. Since the gulf was far too dry for wheat or Figs, the region can't possibly be the location of the Garden.
     
  18. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    And they have found these grains in what Galilee thousands of years before your place :facepalm:


    Ohalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Ohalo is the common designation for the archaeological site Ohalo II in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee, and one of the best preserved hunter-gatherer archaeological sites of the Last Glacial Maximum, having been radiocarbon dated to around 19,400 BP.[1] The site is significant because of the numerous fruit and cereal grain remains preserved therein, (intact ancient plant remains being exceedingly rare finds due to their quick decomposition).
     
  19. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Why do you ignore previous traditions Israelites used in this mythology????????????
     
  20. Ouroboros

    Ouroboros Coincidentia oppositorum
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    A God who doesn't want anything, has no wants. What if he wants wants? He can't want or get wants if he doesn't have any, so he still would be unfulfilled since he's missing out on desires.

    I think that want, desire, need, etc, is the force that drives things forward. A God with emotions and thoughts who had not wants or desires wouldn't create this world. A God like that, must have something that he needs or desires to create the world.

    A God who is all-powerful is lacking one thing. There's one thing he can't be. He can't be impotent. He can't be without power. So there's something he can't be and can't do even after having all power.

    In other words, omnipotence, omniscience, and all those mega-ginormous words that supposedly encapsulates everything are problematic to begin with. They're not good qualifiers for what a God is. It's like trying to find the highest integer in the infinite series of whole numbers.
     
    #1860 Ouroboros, Oct 10, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
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