Well thank you for something positive to respond to......
![Smile :) :)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
Sorry about the length of this but for me the details are important.
Can't even remember what the issue was about.
It was about the responses of JW's not sitting well with the strongly held beliefs of the OP. Because we tell him things he does not want to hear, we must of necessity be wrong.
I am wary of people saying "It's in the bible" because EVERYTHING is in the bible.
Do you think that the author of the Bible wanted us to be in confusion? Who is responsible for it IYO?
So JW's believe they are the 144,000 "because it's in the bible" and of course, it's literal.
So when you say the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel the JW will say "But
that's not literal."
So where do you start?
Where we start is the Bible.....where else would you start if you are talking about Biblical Christianity?
FYI, we do not believe that all of the 144,000 are Jehovah's Witnesses......
Unless of course we take that term to mean what the Bible says it means.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the noun rendered “witness” (
ʽedh) is derived from a verb (
ʽudh) meaning “return” or “repeat, do again.” Regarding the noun (
ʽedh), the
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament says: “A witness is one, who by reiteration, emphatically affirms his testimony."
Isaiah 43:10 calls the whole nation of Israel
Jehovah's "Witnesses".....and Paul also spoke of the faithful ones of old as being a
'great cloud of witnesses'. (Hebrews 12:1) So, you see, Jehovah has always had his witnesses.
With that in mind we can see that all those whose lives accurately bear testimony to the true God are his witnesses. Its not just a label, but a description.
So how do we come to our conclusion that the 144,000 are not literal Israel but *spiritual* or figurative "Israel?
Again we turn to the apostle Paul for the answer....
In Galatians 6:16, Paul calls his Christian brothers
"the Israel of God", yet these ones were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. The designation "Israel" must therefore be symbolic rather than literal.
In Romans 2:28-29 Paul clarifies this...
"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."
This is spiritual Israel.....those who accepted a circumcision of their hearts by allowing the teachings of Jesus to replace the corrupted teachings of fleshly Israel's religious leaders. Jesus never came to teach a new religion but to clean up the old one. The Jewish leaders did not want to be corrected, so Jesus gathered the "lost sheep" and guided them into a new and spiritually clean environment. He provided uncontaminated 'water' and health giving 'pasture'. He separated them out of that incorrigible system....condemning it. (Matthew 23:37-39)
So why do we think that the number 144,000 is literal and not figurative...because of the context of the scripture that spoke about them.
Revelation 7:4 says...
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel".
This is not fleshly Israel because it is speaking about the very same ones of whom Paul wrote. It is obvious by the way that these are numbered, that it is a reflection of the order that has always existed in God's nation. Even when he was bringing them out of Egypt, in order to guide them to the Promised Land, they were in "battle formation" which probably meant like an army in five parts, with vanguard, rear guard, main body and two wings. Very organized. (Exodus 13:18)
Then after identifying these 144,000 (who were
"bought from among mankind as firstfruits" - Revelation 14:1-5) John sees another
"great multitude" of people which
"no man was able to number". So in contrasting a numbered or finite group, chosen for a specific role, there is an unnumbered or infinite group, who also attribute salvation to God and to the Lamb. The literal number is meaningless unless comparing the two as opposites.
The second group are identified as those who
"come out of the great tribulation" which we know, occurs on earth as the final episode in the destruction of this ungodly system of things. (Matthew 24:3; Revelation 7:9-10; Revelation 7:13-14; Matthew 24:21)
So scripturally, we derive our conclusions, not from men, but from the Bible itself. We also keep in mind that no one can become a genuine disciple of Christ without a direct invitation from the Father. (John 6:65) This gives us a conviction about our beliefs. A true Christian can never say "I dunno" about anything that Christ taught. His teachings are written on their hearts.
Where you start is with the explicit teachings of Jesus, His Example and the practice
of his Church.
Yes! And that is exactly what we do. We have no structure in our worship that resembles Christendom in any way. Our meeting are not about meaningless rituals or repetitive prayers, they are about Bible instruction and study, as well as training for our ministry. All of Jehovah's Witnesses are Bible students. We try at all times to follow the example of our Leader who is Jesus Christ. We have those appointed to lead, but this has always been the case with God's people. (Hebrews 13:17) Sheep need shepherds. He has never left his people without guides.
So, there's no Mary worship; Vatican City or Kingdom Halls. There's no
holy days, temples, priesthood, symbolic worship (save for baptism and Eucharist)
I agree with no worship of Mary, (which is exclusively Catholic AFAIK) No Vatican, also because Jesus did not set up any earthly kingdom. (John 18:36) But the first Christians met as a group, initially in the porticoes of the Temple, but when hostility became an issue, they transferred their meetings to other places. Some were held in the homes of fellow believers. Our Kingdom Halls are just meeting places.
We do not observe any "holy days" because the ones observed in Christendom were never holy in the first place.
Jesus never mentioned earthly temples or even an earthly priesthood. When the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70CE, it was never rebuilt. That was because there was no need. The real temple was in heaven and the priests who are to officiate there are not priests whilst they are on earth. (Revelation 20:6)
The only observance Jesus commanded for his followers was to commemorate the memorial of his death...and all his disciples had to be baptized...not as infants, but as those old enough to make a decision to live a Christian life.
name for the church etc.. And there's an itinerant ministry, women preachers, home
service etc.. Just go by the text - the original text, not a church-specific bible.
If you really know anything about Jehovah's Witnesses, then you would know that we take these things very seriously.
Our name, as I have mentioned, describes who and what we are...as separate and distinct from the sects of Christendom.
We have traveling ministers who visit our congregations to strengthen and encourage them as well as to accompany the brothers and sisters out in their door to door ministry. (Acts 4:42; Acts 20:20)
We have missionaries who travel all over the world preaching about God's Kingdom to all who will listen. But more importantly we preach to our closer neighbors because their lives are precious to God too. (Matthew 10:11-15) If there is a positive response to our message, we are to stay and teach that person or even whole families....but if not, we are to move on.
All of Jehovah's Witnesses are preachers of the Kingdom just as Jesus commanded. (Matthew 24:14: Matthew 28:19-20)
I was raised in Christendom so I have been on both sides of this fence. Have you?