Boldly moving backwards, as always.

[Father Heathen]

Top Islamic body: Yoga is not for Muslims - CNN.com

 

[rocketman]

A sad state of affairs. :sad:

Someone over there needs to stand up and challenge this and demand to be shown how it is a problem, especially for those devout Muslims who have already been doing it for years.

 

[3.14]

who the hell are they to make those decisions
its not like god came down from the skie and said f yoga, its just a couple dudes with "imaginary power" telling people what to do (they probely said it because there not agile enough to practice yoga

 

[Sahar]

So, where is the problem here?

 

[madcap]

You know, I really don't understand the fear that exposure to other ideas will weaken someone's morality. If your beliefs are correct (religious or otherwise, Muslim or otherwise), they ought to be able to withstand challenge. Never mind that yoga as most people practice it has relatively little connection to genuine Hinduism.

But it seems to me that the real solution here is for someone to develop -- and I hope this doesn't sound insensitive or flippant -- Muslim Yoga. Take the principles of yoga that you can be comfortable with, incorporate elements from Islam (prayers, etc.), and there you go. Now devout Muslims in Malaysia and elsewhere can improve their health and well-being without fear of being ostracized.

 

[tomspug]

How does Yoga in any way affect religion?

The better question is WHY the religion is so bent on not changing that it feels threatened by something as harmless as yoga?

What's next? Islam bans Scrabble?

 

[Sahar]

You know, I really don't understand the fear that exposure to other ideas will weaken someone's morality. If your beliefs are correct (religious or otherwise, Muslim or otherwise), they ought to be able to withstand challenge.

You know, I don't really understand the problem in issuing a fatwa warning Muslims against a certain practice that goes against their beliefs. This is the job of the scholars, to explain to us our religion and help us to know what pleases Allah and what doesn't through their knowledge. Those scholars have seen that Yoga is against our beliefs and, actually, I see that non Muslims have no say in this.

Never mind that yoga as most people practice it has relatively little connection to genuine Hinduism.

I am aware of an opinion that says as long as it's pure physical exercise then nothing wrong with it, Islamically speaking. But if it was practiced for worship or spiritual aspects then it's completely rejected.

But it seems to me that the real solution here is for someone to develop -- and I hope this doesn't sound insensitive or flippant -- Muslim Yoga. Take the principles of yoga that you can be comfortable with, incorporate elements from Islam (prayers, etc.)

You, talking like this, imply that there is a worship aspect of it, that's why the Malaysian Fatwa went against it. I as a Muslim see our prayers are sufficient to us on the level of our minds' comfort, peace, spirituality and worship. I don't need Yoga or anything else. But if it was pure physical exercise, then the issue is different as I said earlier.

 

[Sahar]

Also, what's the problem for me as a Muslim to fear if this belief or that, this practice or that might make me vulnerable to go against my own beliefs and my own religion?
This fear or this caution is called in Islam "Takwa" i.e whenever and wherever I make a move, I must be sure first that this move will please my God and if it doesn't then I hurry to discard it.

 

[madcap]

You know, I don't really understand the problem in issuing a fatwa warning Muslims against a certain practice that goes against their beliefs. This is the job of the scholars, to explain to us our religion and help us to know what pleases Allah and what doesn't through their knowledge. Those scholars have seen that Yoga is against our beliefs and, actually, I see that non Muslims have no say in this.

Fair enough. But do all Muslim scholars agree about this?

You, talking like this, imply that there is a worship aspect of it, that's why the Malaysian Fatwa went against it. I as a Muslim see our prayers are sufficient to us on the level of our minds' comfort, peace, spirituality and worship. I don't need Yoga or anything else. But if it was pure physical exercise, then the issue is different as I said earlier.

On the contrary, I was suggesting that a worship element be added. I don't see what makes it incompatible with Islam as currently practiced, but if it is, maybe that can be remedied by replacing the offending elements with something more amenable to the Muslim faith.

 

[Sahar]

Fair enough. But do all Muslim scholars agree about this?

I have already presented another opinion that doesn't reject it all, only in certain conditions:

I am aware of an opinion that says as long as it's pure physical exercise then nothing wrong with it, Islamically speaking. But if it was practiced for worship or spiritual aspects then it's completely rejected.

On the contrary, I was suggesting that a worship element be added. I don't see what makes it incompatible with Islam as currently practiced, but if it is, maybe that can be remedied by replacing the offending elements with something more amenable to the Muslim faith.

No, it should not have anything to do with belief, faith or worship. How Muslims worship their God is something that was completed and that is definite in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Muslims aren't allowed to invent new ways to worship their God, this puts them in a very serious situation.

 

[Bucket]

I would think yoga might clear the mind so that you would be able to worship/appreciate one\'s faith better. I don\'t see how it would be a detriment. Oh, my.

 

[Women_Of_Reason]

Is the Muslim faith so weak that a mere exercise might shatter it?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I would like to call attention to the opinion of one woman quoted in the article:

Putri Rahim, a housewife, said she was no less a Muslim after practicing yoga for 10 years.

"I am mad! Maybe they have it in mind that Islam is under threat. To come out with a fatwa is an insult to intelligent Muslims. It's an insult to my belief," Putri said.
​

Also, what's the problem for me as a Muslim to fear if this belief or that, this practice or that might make me vulnerable to go against my own beliefs and my own religion?

Let me answer by posing your question in a different way:

What's the problem for me as an American to fear this belief or that, this practice or that might make me vulnerable to go against my own beliefs and my own country?
​

You can replace American/country with almost anything you like: white man/race, Jew/religion, Corlione/family, and so on.

The answer is, why would going against your own beliefs be something to fear? If your beliefs, your country, religion, etc. is well-founded, then an open investigation of lots of perspectives, sources of information, and experiences can only reaffirm them. In general, exposing yourself to different perspectives can only have three possible outcomes, and none of them ought to be feared:

1. Your investigation leads you straight back to the beliefs and attitudes you started with. Great! You were right all along. Yours is the greatest religion, or country, or race, or whatever.
2. Your investigation leads you away from (perhaps only some of) your initial beliefs. Great! Your initial beliefs must have been in error.
3. Your investigation leads you away from your initial beliefs, but you made an error during your investigation. This caused you to adopt incorrect beliefs/attitudes.

The first two are good outcomes. The third is obviously a bad outcome; but it can't be all that bad. After all, if God created us with brains, surely he wants us to use them; and if God is rational and just, surely he will forgive us if we make mistakes despite our sincerest efforts.

What I have always feared is that my current beliefs, attitudes, etc. are wrong because my experience is limited by the fact that I am (or was) Christian, American, white, male, etc. And if I don't actively broaden my perspective, I will always have some wrong beliefs without ever realizing it.

I.m.o. this world would be a better place people embraced, rather than feared, experiences which broaden their perspective beyond their own nationality, culture, religion, etc. (Within reason, of course; obviously I'm not referring to experiences which inflict harm on others, like stealing.)

This fear or this caution is called in Islam "Takwa" i.e whenever and wherever I make a move, I must be sure first that this move will please my God and if it doesn't then I hurry to discard it.

First of all, none of us has heard God speak on the matter, we only have the words of fallible human beings. Secondly, how could an infinitely wise, just, loving Creator possibly be displeased by a practice which harms no one, and which relieves stress and increases happiness for everyone who participates? That doesn't sound like the attitude of a wise God, it sounds like the prejudice and ignorance of human beings--old men, as it happens.

 

[Sahar]

Let me answer by posing your question in a different way:

What's the problem for me as an American to fear this belief or that, this practice or that might make me vulnerable to go against my own beliefs and my own country?
​

You can replace American/country with almost anything you like: white man/race, Jew/religion, Corlione/family, and so on.

Explain to me how country and nationality replace religious beliefs and practices!

The answer is, why would going against your own beliefs be something to fear? If your beliefs, your country, religion, etc. is well-founded, then an open investigation of lots of perspectives, sources of information, and experiences can only reaffirm them. In general, exposing yourself to different perspectives can only have three possible outcomes, and none of them ought to be feared:

1. Your investigation leads you straight back to the beliefs and attitudes you started with. Great! You were right all along. Yours is the greatest religion, or country, or race, or whatever.
2. Your investigation leads you away from (perhaps only some of) your initial beliefs. Great! Your initial beliefs must have been in error.
3. Your investigation leads you away from your initial beliefs, but you made an error during your investigation. This caused you to adopt incorrect beliefs/attitudes.

So I should openly investigate Heroin by injecting a shot of Heroin inside my body? Is this the open investigation that you're talking about?
An attitude/practice/belief that I know is wrong or goes against my principles and religion, what should I investigate exactly after that? Yes at the beginning I may try to acquire knowledge about that attitude or belief to conclude if it goes against my religion or not and this doesn't mean I should practice it to reach the conclusion.
In our case, I would have a background about Yoga...and I found out that it's originally a practice and a form of worship in another religion. A practice related to religious beliefs different than mine, why would I adopt it in the first place? Why would I adopt religious beliefs and practices of other people which put me in a serious situation with my own religion?
So the problem here is a practice that is related to the religious beliefs of people whose religion are different than mine, I ask again, what does "american" and "country" have anything to do with our topic?

Mr Spinkles, I have a hard time trying to understand the context of your post here.
When I said the Muslim fears to disobey his God, what's up with the open investigations part?

 

[Sahar]

First of all, none of us has heard God speak on the matter, we only have the words of fallible human beings. Secondly, how could an infinitely wise, just, loving Creator possibly be displeased by a practice which harms no one, and which relieves stress and increases happiness for everyone who participates? That doesn't sound like the attitude of a wise God, it sounds like the prejudice and ignorance of human beings--old men, as it happens.

Borrowing a practice from another religion is something that's definitely rejected and the very simple Muslim knows this.

 

[Sahar]

After all, if God created us with brains, surely he wants us to use them; and if God is rational and just, surely he will forgive us if we make mistakes despite our sincerest efforts.

And since God created us with brains, we shouldn't make mistakes that we in advance know that they are mistakes. And our knowledge doesn't necessarily come from making this act so that we can know it's a mistake but from other different sources of knowledge and other people's experience. Smoking is wrong, should I smoke to know it's wrong?
I make mistakes because of my ignorance (or even arrogance) and I acknowledge my mistakes then and try to fix them if possible, of course God forgives my sins and mistakes; God forgives our weakness without any doubt.

 

[Father Heathen]

So, where is the problem here?

Apparently they issued a fatwa mandating lobotomies.

 

[stacey bo bacey]

Yea, I got one line into that and rolled my eyes and said "whatever". Not even worth reading. How stupid.

edit: the sentiment not the article =D

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Explain to me how country and nationality replace religious beliefs and practices!

To you, religion may be far more important than nationalism. Nevertheless, for many people, both can be the foundation of beliefs/attitudes that one is raised to accept, without questioning. Both of them encourage people to reject anything that might make them question their beliefs. And those beliefs could be misplaced.

For example, many Americans won't listen to Al-Jazeera because it is (perceived to be) anti-American. They wouldn't want their kids to watch it, because then their kids might adopt anti-American views. They are more concerned with being loyal to their unquestionable nationalist ideology than they are about discerning truth from falsehood and good from bad. You seem to feel the same way about your religious ideology.

At any rate, we can restrict ourselves to religious beliefs and practices, if you like. But that includes all Ba'hai, pagan, Wiccan, or atheist beliefs and practices as well.

So I should openly investigate Heroin by injecting a shot of Heroin inside my body? Is this the open investigation that you're talking about?

Of course not, that's why I said "within reason". I'm not saying we should jump off a cliff to "investigate" what that would be like, either. Give me a little credit here.

An attitude/practice/belief that I know is wrong or goes against my principles and religion, what should I investigate exactly after that?

If you find it to be wrong, then you're finished. The interesting case is when your own thinking on the matter conflicts with what your religion, or your understanding of your religion, prescribes.

Here's an example: for many Jewish settlers in Israel, their religion--or at least, their understanding of their religion--teaches that the all-wise, perfectly just God has set aside the Holy Land for the Jews. Logically, IF that were true, THEN their agenda to drive out all non-Jews and take all the land would be justified. However, if they merely considered the issue by itself, based on reason and justice, they would easily conclude what they are doing is NOT justified. Then they would have to alter their religious beliefs, since obviously a just God could not command them to do injustice. But instead, they judge the goodness and trueness of everything based on how compatible it is with their religion as it is now.

Yes at the beginning I may try to acquire knowledge about that attitude or belief to conclude if it goes against my religion or not and this doesn't mean I should practice it to reach the conclusion.

Agreed.

In our case, I would have a background about Yoga...and I found out that it's originally a practice and a form of worship in another religion. A practice related to religious beliefs different than mine, why would I adopt it in the first place? Why would I adopt religious beliefs and practices of other people which put me in a serious situation with my own religion?

In the case of yoga, you might ask what it does, and what it does not do. That is, it makes people happy; it relieves stress; it brings people together. It does not harm those who do it (as heroin does); it doesn't divide people and turn them against each other; and it doesn't harm those who choose not to participate. It may have developed from other religions historically, but it is not necessary to adopt those religions to practice and enjoy yoga today. The worst the practice could do is force one to appreciate that other religions have traditions which are useful and good, even today. I cannot see how it would be wise to reject yoga as a bad thing, based on these considerations.

Mr Spinkles, I have a hard time trying to understand the context of your post here.
When I said the Muslim fears to disobey his God, what's up with the open investigations part?

I thought the fear about yoga was that it might change some Muslims' beliefs.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Borrowing a practice from another religion is something that's definitely rejected and the very simple Muslim knows this.

First of all, what if it's a good practice? Are you opposed to the Olympic Games?

The Olympics were of fundamental religious importance. They featured sport events and ritual sacrifices honoring both Zeus (whose colossal statue stood at Olympia), and Pelops, divine hero and mythical king of Olympia. Pelops was famous for his legendary chariot races with King Oenomaus of Pisatis.[3] The number of events increased to twenty and the celebration spanned several days. Winners of the events were admired and immortalized in poems and statues.[4] The Games were held every four years, known as an Olympiad. The Greeks used Olympiads as one of their units of time measurement.

Olympic Games - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

Secondly, Islam has borrowed from and been influenced by Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Jain and Manichaean traditions, as well as secular philosophical traditions. Islam would not exist in its modern-day form without all these influences.

And since God created us with brains, we shouldn't make mistakes that we in advance know that they are mistakes. And our knowledge doesn't necessarily come from making this act so that we can know it's a mistake but from other different sources of knowledge and other people's experience. Smoking is wrong, should I smoke to know it's wrong?

Of course not. But smoking is not wrong because your religion says it's wrong. Smoking is wrong because it kills people. If my religion said smoking was good, should I conclude smoking is good or should I question my religion?