Blind faith

[UnityNow101]

Blind Faith.....An excellent song by Dream Theater!:yes:

But seriously, blind faith is always a dangerous thing although each and every one of us is guilty of blindly following some doctrine or creed. Can we ever be 100% sure that what we believe is the truth? Of course not. Is that blind faith? To a certain extent, yes. Faith is in a sense a sort of blind reality. But it is necessary. Did Jesus raise from the grave? I believe that He did. Someone would and could plausibly accuse me of blindly following that stance since there is no 'proof' that He ever did.

 

[Jeremiah]

I believe faith is more than the cheap version people pitch.

But seeing how it is beyond reason I do not see how it could be described.

 

[Runt]

Blind faith relieves the believer of the burden of having to think and of having to deal with doubt and therefore makes believing easier.

I believe faith is more than the cheap version people pitch.

Faith is one thing; blind faith another. Faith acknowledges and addresses doubts and opposing viewpoints and, as a result, creates in the believer a better understanding of his or her spirituality who is closer to his or her God. Blind faith seeks to pretend doubts and opposing viewpoints don't exist and thus prevents the believer from having a fully-developed spirituality.

 

[McBell]

Faith must be supported and the rational mind is what finds, affirms, and supports faith.

Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject -- otherwise there's no need for faith.

 

[Popeyesays]

Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject -- otherwise there's no need for faith.

"The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul; and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished, and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 317)

"The first condition of perception in the world of nature is the perception of the rational soul. In this perception and in this power all men are sharers, whether they be neglectful or vigilant, believers or deniers. This human rational soul is God's creation; it encompasses and excels other creatures; as it is more noble and distinguished, it encompasses things. The power of the rational soul can discover the realities of things, comprehend the peculiarities of beings, and penetrate the mysteries of existence. All sciences, knowledge, arts, wonders, institutions, discoveries and enterprises come from the exercised intelligence of the rational soul. There was a time when they were unknown, preserved mysteries and hidden secrets; the rational soul gradually discovered them and brought them out from the plane of the invisible and 218 the hidden into the realm of the visible. This is the greatest power of perception in the world of nature, which in its highest flight and soaring comprehends the realities, the properties and the effects of the contingent beings."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 217)

Regards,
Scott

 

[sojourner]

Faith is never blind. One believes on the basis of what one has experienced of God with one's own physical and spiritual senses. Moses, Noah, etc. are fine examples of people whose experiences of an unseen God were so real for them as to constitute explanation only by the literary use of an anthropomorphic appearance and voice for such an experienced God.

I don't think the "reason" for Christianity is to make us work hard to discover God. I think just the contrary is the norm. Xy exists in order to be a human manifestation of a God we cannot see. Xy should make it easier for folks to "see" and "hear" God. it's only regrettable that the God we reveal to the world is so often frraught with the worst of human tendencies, instead of the best.

 

[McBell]

"The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul; and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished, and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 317)

"The first condition of perception in the world of nature is the perception of the rational soul. In this perception and in this power all men are sharers, whether they be neglectful or vigilant, believers or deniers. This human rational soul is God's creation; it encompasses and excels other creatures; as it is more noble and distinguished, it encompasses things. The power of the rational soul can discover the realities of things, comprehend the peculiarities of beings, and penetrate the mysteries of existence. All sciences, knowledge, arts, wonders, institutions, discoveries and enterprises come from the exercised intelligence of the rational soul. There was a time when they were unknown, preserved mysteries and hidden secrets; the rational soul gradually discovered them and brought them out from the plane of the invisible and 218 the hidden into the realm of the visible. This is the greatest power of perception in the world of nature, which in its highest flight and soaring comprehends the realities, the properties and the effects of the contingent beings."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 217)

Regards,
Scott

Interestingly enough, these quotes do not refute what I said...

 

[Smoke]

Moses or Noah or any other Christian

I'm sorry, I'm finding it difficult to concentrate on anything else after that.

 

[sojourner]

I'm sorry, I'm finding it difficult to concentrate on anything else after that.

LOL I just caught that! I suppose Caiaphas was a Christian, too...:foot:

 

[Popeyesays]

Interestingly enough, these quotes do not refute what I said...

So, perhaps we are talking past one another.

Here is another short quote from the same source about how science and religion (reason and faith) must ah\gree with one another:

"God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 240)

Regards,
Scott

 

[McBell]

So, perhaps we are talking past one another.

Here is another short quote from the same source about how science and religion (reason and faith) must ah\gree with one another:

"God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 240)

Regards,
Scott

I disagree.
They MIGHT be superstitions and imaginations.
Or it may be that science is wrong or misunderstood.
If the religious continue to believe their "superstitions and imaginations" despite the science that is faith.
What happens if the science is found wrong and that the religious were correct the whole time?
Their faith turned out to be right after all.
However, even though they were right, it was still on faith that they believed until the science "caught up" (for lack of a better term).

Hopefully that made sense.
If not, let me know and I will attempt to explain it another way.

 

[Popeyesays]

I disagree.
They MIGHT be superstitions and imaginations.
Or it may be that science is wrong or misunderstood.
If the religious continue to believe their "superstitions and imaginations" despite the science that is faith.
What happens if the science is found wrong and that the religious were correct the whole time?
Their faith turned out to be right after all.
However, even though they were right, it was still on faith that they believed until the science "caught up" (for lack of a better term).

Hopefully that made sense.
If not, let me know and I will attempt to explain it another way.

Let's try this.

Science sees the universe materially.
Religion sees the Universe spiritually.

Both are ways of perceiving the same Universe.

Therefore they must agree or there is dissonance.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

Science sees the universe materially.
Religion sees the Universe spiritually.

Both science and religion both see the universe spiritually. It's when would-be adherents to either or both imagine they see the infinite materially that the trouble begins.

 

[Runt]

Both science and religion both see the universe spiritually. It's when would-be adherents to either or both imagine they see the infinite materially that the trouble begins.

Materialism, empiricism and positivism do not see the universe spiritually but materially, and it is upon these philosophies that scientific inquiry---and thus "Science"---rests.

 

[Random]

Both science and religion both see the universe spiritually. It's when would-be adherents to either or both imagine they see the infinite materially that the trouble begins.

There aren't enough frubals in all the world to reward this post adequately. Excellent, Brendan: thank you, friend.

Peace and blessings (ha, see I cast a spell!),

Conor

 

[doppelganger]

Materialism, empiricism and positivism do not see the universe spiritually but materially, and it is upon these philosophies that scientific inquiry---and thus "Science"---rests.

Only according to "materialists, empiricists and positivists." Last I checked even the last little threads of empiricism that the relativist Albert Einstein couldn't let go of ultimately unwound into non-locality.

If you think your claim is "true" I suggest you read up on what happened to physics in Copenhagen during the first half of the 20th century.

 

[Popeyesays]

Both science and religion both see the universe spiritually. It's when would-be adherents to either or both imagine they see the infinite materially that the trouble begins.

I would agree, except I disagree too. Ah! Such is metaphor.

regards,

Scott

 

[Runt]

Only according to "materialists, empiricists and positivists." Last I checked even the last little threads of empiricism that the relativist Albert Einstein couldn't let go of ultimately unwound into non-locality.

If you think your claim is "true" I suggest you read up on what happened to physics in Copenhagen during the first half of the 20th century.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the scientific method does not rest upon empiricism? Observable phenomena is not spiritual, no matter how much you try to twist the idea.

 

[doppelganger]

Observable phenomena is not spiritual, no matter how much you try to twist the idea.

If you say so . . .

Empiricism to the extent it is taxonomically related to phenomenalism, lives on in modern science. But phenomenalism is spiritual. The observed and observer become one.

 

[Quagmire]

If you were Moses or Noah or any other Christian who was spoke to by God, believing in God was pretty easy for them.

I wouldn't say it was easy at all. In each case of a recipient of direct revelation in the OT a relationship with God was only established after a complete rejection of either the religion or social conventions they'd been born into;

(according to the OT)
Abraham took his family out of Ur and rejected the Sumarian religious cosmology leaving him with his own, personal perception of God stripped of any preset dogma or mythology.

Moses did the same with the Egytian pantheon that he'd been raised in.

Noah, being the only righteous man on the predeluvian earth, obviously rejected the social mores of his own time.

Samuel was dedicated to the temple at a very young age, which would have meant foregoing a conventional childhood or adolecence.

In each case we see an example of God choosing to reveal Himself to a man who was allready dedicated to following something (maybe just his own conscience), and usually at great personal sacrifice, in direct opposition to whatever religious or social atmosphere he'd been born into.

I think the real contrast between this and "blind faith" is that the latter involves unquestioning acceptence of the prevaling religious or philosophical atmosphere of your social stratum whereas the former involves submitting to something much more personal; your conscience, the "logos", the "still small voice", or, as Justyn Martyr said, reason.