Blessing that I'm not a women

[Tumah]

That is an interpretation you have decided to believe in, and that's all fine and dandy, but I believe that it avoids the reality of the what the words actually say and the cultural milieu that it came from. Also, as I'm quite sure you're also aware that there are many other areas whereas differentiations show up that we would call "sexist" today, such as a how "gets" are handled or the subordinate role of women in the Temple/synagogue, often pawned off as "just different roles".

And your interpretation ignores the understanding of the Beis Yosef, Rashi, Tosafos, and in fact, the only logical way to read the passage in the Talmud that deals with these blessings (which is why the commentators interpret them this way).

 

[metis]

And your interpretation ignores the understanding of the Beis Yosef, Rashi, Tosafos, and in fact, the only logical way to read the passage in the Talmud that deals with these blessings (which is why the commentators interpret them this way).

Yes, they certainly can have their opinions as well, but our sages have often been quite good at looking for loopholes to avoid some of the harshness found in Torah. For example, how many "disobedient sons" and "adulterers" have we executed lately?

The words say what they say, and I ain't the one who's playing fast and loose with interpretations.

 

[Tumah]

Yes, they certainly can have their opinions as well, but our sages have often been quite good at looking for loopholes to avoid some of the harshness found in Torah. For example, how many "disobedient sons" and "adulterers" have we executed lately?

The words say what they say, and I ain't the one who's playing fast and loose with interpretations.

The Sages are the ones who wrote the blessings. You are basically accusing the Sages of writing the blessings in a way that puts women down. And then for finding a loophole for explaining the blessings in a way that doesn't put women down. That doesn't make any sense.

What you call "looking for loopholes" is application of the same principles of Torah study applied to every other Torah passage in the Talmud. I guess they are always looking for loopholes...

One thing anyone who has ever studied Jewish literature knows, is that what it says is not even a quarter of what its saying.

 

[rosends]

That is an interpretation you have decided to believe in, and that's all fine and dandy, but I believe that it avoids the reality of the what the words actually say and the cultural milieu that it came from.

But the people who wrote them IN that cultural milieu explained them in accordance with what I understand. You are insisting that they lied? What about what the words actually say leads you to the conclusion you draw about both the blessings and their writers?

 

[metis]

The Sages are the ones who wrote the blessings. You are basically accusing the Sages of writing the blessings in a way that puts women down. And then for finding a loophole for explaining the blessings in a way that doesn't put women down. That doesn't make any sense.

What you call "looking for loopholes" is application of the same principles of Torah study applied to every other Torah passage in the Talmud. I guess they are always looking for loopholes...

One thing anyone who has ever studied Jewish literature knows, is that what it says is not even a quarter of what its saying.

I've heard this many times before, and I simply do not believe this for reasons I have expressed. I was born, but I wasn't born yesterday, and I have seen the questionable prayer in its context with different supposed explanations.

You and I have had different impressions of both the composition and interpretation of Torah, let alone this discussion, so this is just another example of how our different approaches manifests themselves. I see Torah in large part as a reflection of traditional Jewish culture with our morals and values that were not in isolation from the neighboring societies and their history, and you see if of divine origin. If we didn't disagree, that would be the miracle.

 

[metis]

But the people who wrote them IN that cultural milieu explained them in accordance with what I understand. You are insisting that they lied? What about what the words actually say leads you to the conclusion you draw about both the blessings and their writers?

The commentaries came later, and we have seen that pattern many times before as I gave three other examples of this ("get", "disobedient sons", & "adultery"). As far as the last question is concerned, I have already answered that several times.

Hey, I don;t have a problem with what you and Tumah have on this, and I'm glad you have that interpretation that you two believe in versus the one that I have. But the one thing you seemingly are avoiding is even admitting the patriarchal cultural milieu back then that I believe fed into that prayer. If you're not even going to admit that, then I believe you are pretty much using a set of blinders that probably has the effect of blocking out any attempt to try and look at this and probably some other things objectively.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but this is a common malady in pretty much all religions. In anthropology, we are trained to try and cut through beliefs but not judge them, and then study the various influences that led to the development of those beliefs. It often doesn't make us a lot of friends when we do this, btw.

 

[Tumah]

I've heard this many times before, and I simply do not believe this for reasons I have expressed. I was born, but I wasn't born yesterday, and I have seen the questionable prayer in its context with different supposed explanations.

You and I have had different impressions of both the composition and interpretation of Torah, let alone this discussion, so this is just another example of how our different approaches manifests themselves. I see Torah in large part as a reflection of traditional Jewish culture with our morals and values that were not in isolation from the neighboring societies and their history, and you see if of divine origin. If we didn't disagree, that would be the miracle.

I don't know why you keep bringing the Torah into this. We are talking about blessings that were established by Rabbis. Are you making the argument that during the era of the Talmud, Jewish society was no longer condescending towards women?

 

[rosends]

The commentaries came later, and we have seen that pattern many times before as I gave three other examples of this ("get", "disobedient sons", & "adultery"). As far as the last question is concerned, I have already answered that several times.

Hey, I don;t have a problem with what you and Tumah have on this, and I'm glad you have that interpretation that you two believe in versus the one that I have. But the one thing you seemingly are avoiding is even admitting the patriarchal cultural milieu back then that I believe fed into that prayer. If you're not even going to admit that, then I believe you are pretty much using a set of blinders that probably has the effect of blocking out any attempt to try and look at this and probably some other things objectively.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but this is a common malady in pretty much all religions. In anthropology, we are trained to try and cut through beliefs but not judge them, and then study the various influences that led to the development of those beliefs. It often doesn't make us a lot of friends when we do this, btw.

I guess I'm just missing something. The talmud records these blessings (and alternate texts) and discusses the reason regarding them and a person's being obligated in different numbers and classes of requirements. But you are insisting that even in the talmud's writing, the people who wrote these blessings are lying?

 

[metis]

I don't know why you keep bringing the Torah into this. We are talking about blessings that were established by Rabbis. Are you making the argument that during the era of the Talmud, Jewish society was no longer condescending towards women?

No, I'm not, but Judaism and almost all religious traditions tend to be quite condescending towards women even if the "true believers" don't want to admit it.

More later.

 

[metis]

I guess I'm just missing something. The talmud records these blessings (and alternate texts) and discusses the reason regarding them and a person's being obligated in different numbers and classes of requirements. But you are insisting that even in the talmud's writing, the people who wrote these blessings are lying?

No, not lying, but reflecting the cultural milieu that early Judaism evolved in. The human mind has a great ability to believe what it wants to believe or is conditioned to believe, which we often refer to as "confirmation bias".

Let me use an analogy. Let's say that I tell you that I say this prayer every morning: "Blessed are you, Lord, our God, ruler of the universe who has not created me an orthodox Jew”. What's your reaction?

So, after telling me something like "You should take a long walk off a short pier", I respond that you two simply don't understand that it is just a prayer that cites different roles between the different branches of Judaism and is no way an insult to orthodox Judaism. Do you buy it? Nah, you know you wouldn't.

Well...

 

[rosends]

No, not lying, but reflecting the cultural milieu that early Judaism evolved in. The human mind has a great ability to believe what it wants to believe or is conditioned to believe, which we often refer to as "confirmation bias".

Let me use an analogy. Let's say that I tell you that I say this prayer every morning: "Blessed are you, Lord, our God, ruler of the universe who has not created me an orthodox Jew”. What's your reaction?

So, after telling me something like "You should take a long walk off a short pier", I respond that you two simply don't understand that it is just a prayer that cites different roles between the different branches of Judaism and is no way an insult to orthodox Judaism. Do you buy it? Nah, you know you wouldn't.

Well...

I don't exactly understand how one can say he was or was not "created" as an Orthodox Jew. I certainly wasn't created as one. So I don't know what the value would be of saying that. But I wouldn't be insulted if someone said "thank God I'm not a teacher". And if someone said "I'm happy that I wasn't made a Yisroel, because I get to fulfill laws that a Yisroel can't" that wouldn't bother me either. Should it?

 

[metis]

I don't exactly understand how one can say he was or was not "created" as an Orthodox Jew.

Not the point, so I'm not going to bite on that side-bar.

 

[rosends]

Not the point, so I'm not going to bite on that side-bar.

Except that it makes it difficult to see the equivalence so I can't answer (certainly not in the way you imputed onto me).

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Why if nowadays we're saying women are just as smart or even smarter then men do men say in the prayers a blessing bless the Lord for not making him a women?

I never knew such a prayer existed. Do you say it as part of your daily prayers?

 

[rosends]

I never knew such a prayer existed. Do you say it as part of your daily prayers?

Yes, every morning.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Yes, every morning.

How do the women feel about that?

 

[rosends]

How do the women feel about that?

Depends on whether they are reacting to the actual meaning and use of the prayer or not. You'd have to ask them.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Depends on whether they are reacting to the actual meaning and use of the prayer or not. You'd have to ask them.

What is the actual meaning of the prayer?

 

[rosends]

What is the actual meaning of the prayer?

As stated above, the prayer comes during a list of ways I could be that would deny me the chance to be obligated in a wide variety of religio-legal obligations. Not being bound to those does make it "easier" for me to fulfill those that I am bound to, and makes it easier for me to satisfy what God wants of me, but the prayers ask me to do the counter-intuitive thing and thank God for creating me in a way which adds on burden and law. So I thank God that I am not a woman (because a women, in Jewish law, is exempt from a particular category of legal obligation) so that I can be bound by more rules.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

As stated above, the prayer comes during a list of ways I could be that would deny me the chance to be obligated in a wide variety of religio-legal obligations. Not being bound to those does make it "easier" for me to fulfill those that I am bound to, and makes it easier for me to satisfy what God wants of me, but the prayers ask me to do the counter-intuitive thing and thank God for creating me in a way which adds on burden and law. So I thank God that I am not a woman (because a women, in Jewish law, is exempt from a particular category of legal obligation) so that I can be bound by more rules.

Ah ok, I understand. So a woman would pray the opposite of that, i.e. "I thank God I am not a man"?