Blasphemy?

[Sleeppy]

God did. But what does this have to do with anything?

Jews don't pray in the name of Elijah. We ask God to hasten Elijah the Herald's arrival, but we don't pray in his name.

Elijah's spirit is a portion/inheritance of God's Spirit. Correct?

 

[Shermana]

Elijah's "Spirit" is the being that incarnated both as "Elijah" and John the Baptist.

 

[Sleeppy]

Elijah's "Spirit" is the being that incarnated both as "Elijah" and John the Baptist.

Luke 1:15-17 ...and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother's womb; and many of the sons of Israel he shall turn to the Lord their God, and he shall go before Him, in the spirit and power of Elijah...

 

[Harmonious]

Why do you think the All-knowing God negates things He's said?

Normally, He doesn't. If there is a situation where such a thing happens, there is something deeper to be learned from this.

Further, the ultimate source was the Five Books of Moses and the commentaries that came with it. If something comes after that and it seems to contradict what came before, it has to be understood in the lens of what was already taught earlier.

Otherwise, it can be dismissed, as the example I gave from the discussion in the Talmud before.

Abraham did not argue for his son Isaac. Genesis 22. Wasn't this his defining moment?

Abraham has MANY impressive moments. One defining moment... It depends on what part of Abraham's personality you want to define.

You could just as easily say that it was a defining moment when Abraham separated from Lot.

Or, you could say it was a defining moment when Abraham bore with patience the fact that he had to buy the burial cave he used for Sarah, when God promised him the entirety of the land.

I would say that the Binding of Isaac is definitely a momentous occasion.

God told Abraham that he would not be able to count his seed. He later gave him a child through Sarah and asked Abraham to sacrifice him. Abraham on the way assured his son that God would provide the lamb. But, still he motioned toward the sacrifice. Abraham had grown to know God. Thus..

Genesis 22: 16-18 'By Myself I have sworn -- the affirmation of Jehovah -- that because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only one -- that blessing I bless thee, and multiplying I multiply thy seed as stars of the heavens, and as sand which [is] on the sea-shore; and thy seed doth possess the gate of his enemies; and blessed themselves in thy seed have all nations of the earth, because that thou hast hearkened to My voice.'

Your point is...?

Yes, Abraham didn't argue the specific test that God set for him.

If you want to know why Abraham argued one case and not the other, that is another thing entirely.

But the question at hand, I believe, is the fact that Abraham DID argue about Sodom and Amora.

I don't see argument in these cases, I see confusion. God knew all along what He was doing and what these patriarchs were doing and would do.

Of course, God knew all along what He was going to do. But the argument was to clarify what He was doing with someone else.

And even you can't miss the fact that it seemed like God might have really killed all of the Children of Israel and start over again with Moses. He didn't, and I don't really thing that God intended to do it, but it was really something that Moses argued the case with God.

I've read the instance of the Golden Calf and wondered. Again, I see confusion. Moses did not know what God had known. There was no argument. Moses spoke in his ignorance, but God accepted the intercession for the time it took Moses to fill himself of God's knowledge of their "great sin." Moses and the sons of Levi took upon themselves what God was going to do by killing "about 3000." Moses then tries atoning for their sin. It isn't accepted. The chapter ends with God plaguing the people.

And how do you know that it was something that Moses took upon himself, and didn't do because God told him?

You DO know that God told Moses many things that weren't written down for all times, right? Or, do you not believe it when Jethro saw Moses inundated with court cases, and suggested a system of smaller courts and larger courts, such that Moses ended up taking the most difficult of court cases?

They DID spend 40 years in the desert, and it is impossible to believe that the only words that were spoken were the ones that were written.

I find it interesting that you reversed the order of Gideon and Moses. I wonder why you did that.

I'm wondering what free will is. What is it?

God gave all human beings the right to choose to how to act. It is said that "All is in the hands of heaven except the fear of heaven."

I can choose to speak slanderously, or I can choose to refrain from such speech. I can choose to keep the Sabbath, or I can choose to violate the Sabbath.

There are all kinds of choices we are given as human beings, and even if the choices one person has aren't the same as the choices another person has, we are free to make the choices we are given.

There are a few cases, like Pharaoh, when the free will was practically removed, but for the most part, we can choose which way to behave. There are some obvious stopgaps, but asking why God enacts some and not others is beyond my capability to answer.

 

[Shermana]

Luke 1:15-17 ...and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother's womb; and many of the sons of Israel he shall turn to the Lord their God, and he shall go before Him, in the spirit and power of Elijah...

Yes, do you know who Luke 1 is talking about?

 

[Harmonious]

Elijah's spirit is a portion/inheritance of God's Spirit. Correct?

Not as such.

Elijah started as a man, like you, perhaps a bit more exalted, but born of a mother and father.

Elijah was a prophet, like many before and after him, who made a point to give God's words of warning and consolation to the Jews of his time (with messages of import to the rest of all time).

Elijah was given several tasks to do, such that he would not die, so that he can be around thousands of years later to accomplish them.

Was he special? Very. Was he a part of God in a way that normal humans are not? No. Is his job special beyond that of average people? Absolutely.

Your question is built on a faulty premise, and I gave an answer the best way I knew how.

 

[Sleeppy]

Not as such.

Elijah started as a man, like you, perhaps a bit more exalted, but born of a mother and father.

Elijah was a prophet, like many before and after him, who made a point to give God's words of warning and consolation to the Jews of his time (with messages of import to the rest of all time).

Elijah was given several tasks to do, such that he would not die, so that he can be around thousands of years later to accomplish them.

Was he special? Very. Was he a part of God in a way that normal humans are not? No. Is his job special beyond that of average people? Absolutely.

Your question is built on a faulty premise, and I gave an answer the best way I knew how.

So to you, Elijah's spirit is from God, but not of God?

 

[Sleeppy]

Yes, do you know who Luke 1 is talking about?

It's referring to John the Baptist.

 

[Shermana]

It's referring to John the Baptist.

Very good.

John the Baptist

John the Baptist preached a message of repentance and baptism. He predicted the day of judgment using imagery similar to that of Malachi. He also preached that the Messiah was coming. All of this was done in a style that immediately recalled the image of Elijah to his audience. He wore a coat of animal hair secured with a leather belt (Matthew 3:4, Mark 1:6). He also frequently preached in wilderness areas: near the Jordan river.
In the Gospel of John, John the Baptist was asked by a delegation of priests if he was Elijah. To which, he replied "I am not (John 1:21)." The author of Matthew 11:14 and Matthew 17:10–13 however, makes it clear that John was Elijah (or that he fulfilled the office of Elijah) but was not recognized as such. In the annunciation narrative in Luke, an angel appears to Zechariah, John's father, and tells him that John "will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God," and that he will go forth "in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:16–17)."

Elijah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The idea that it's just the "Office" of Elijah kinda clashes with what Jesus says at the vision with Moses. He correctly says that he wasn't Elijah. The same spirit does not mean the same incarnation.

 

[Harmonious]

So to you, Elijah's spirit is from God, but not of God?

I don't understand the question.

 

[Sleeppy]

Normally, He doesn't. If there is a situation where such a thing happens, there is something deeper to be learned from this.

I agree.

Further, the ultimate source was the Five Books of Moses and the commentaries that came with it. If something comes after that and it seems to contradict what came before, it has to be understood in the lens of what was already taught earlier.

I agree with this as well. One thing, our generations have to face, is that the Genesis creation serves less as a literal account.

Abraham has MANY impressive moments. One defining moment... It depends on what part of Abraham's personality you want to define.

You could just as easily say that it was a defining moment when Abraham separated from Lot.

Or, you could say it was a defining moment when Abraham bore with patience the fact that he had to buy the burial cave he used for Sarah, when God promised him the entirety of the land.

I would say that the Binding of Isaac is definitely a momentous occasion.

That was less of a point I wanted to make.. It took a minute deciding whether to put that detail there. It's irrelevant right now.

Your point is...?

Yes, Abraham didn't argue the specific test that God set for him.

If you want to know why Abraham argued one case and not the other, that is another thing entirely.

But the question at hand, I believe, is the fact that Abraham DID argue about Sodom and Amora.

I definitely need to brush up more on these Bible events. The chronology would help me here, but I have a feeling you have it down well enough for both of us in this occasion. Did Abraham argue anymore after he was told to sacrifice Isaac?

As far as arguing for Sodom and Gomorrah.. Abraham soon realized that God is the source of righteousness, and would not "consume the righteous with the wicked." Abraham hadn't yet realized that what God says He will do, He will do according to His perfection in judgement among other things.

Of course, God knew all along what He was going to do. But the argument was to clarify what He was doing with someone else.

And even you can't miss the fact that it seemed like God might have really killed all of the Children of Israel and start over again with Moses. He didn't, and I don't really thing that God intended to do it, but it was really something that Moses argued the case with God.

I believe that if God does/says anything, it is righteous. In this case, by telling Moses what He would do, God knowingly caused Moses to intercede. I also believe that Moses' ignorance caused him to say things contrary to God. Moses spoke still learning that God is righteous in all things. Moses came closer to knowing this in the ensuing events.

And how do you know that it was something that Moses took upon himself, and didn't do because God told him?

Genesis 32:27 It says God told him. What I meant was that instead of God doing it by other means, Moses and the sons of Levi were the instruments used for the purpose of those killings.

You DO know that God told Moses many things that weren't written down for all times, right? Or, do you not believe it when Jethro saw Moses inundated with court cases, and suggested a system of smaller courts and larger courts, such that Moses ended up taking the most difficult of court cases?

They DID spend 40 years in the desert, and it is impossible to believe that the only words that were spoken were the ones that were written.

Yes. I know much of it wasn't written.

I find it interesting that you reversed the order of Gideon and Moses. I wonder why you did that.

What did you have in mind?

God gave all human beings the right to choose to how to act. It is said that "All is in the hands of heaven except the fear of heaven."

Where is that from?

I can choose to speak slanderously, or I can choose to refrain from such speech. I can choose to keep the Sabbath, or I can choose to violate the Sabbath.

There are all kinds of choices we are given as human beings, and even if the choices one person has aren't the same as the choices another person has, we are free to make the choices we are given.

There are a few cases, like Pharaoh, when the free will was practically removed, but for the most part, we can choose which way to behave. There are some obvious stopgaps, but asking why God enacts some and not others is beyond my capability to answer.

Have you ever wondered why you choose one thing over another? What causes that?

 

[Sleeppy]

Very good.

Elijah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The idea that it's just the "Office" of Elijah kinda clashes with what Jesus says at the vision with Moses. He correctly says that he wasn't Elijah. The same spirit does not mean the same incarnation.

I see what you're saying. I've known this.. After all, Elisha received a double portion of Elijah's spirit. What I'm speaking from is this -

John 3:6 That which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

So that Elijah's spirit was born of God's Spirit.

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't understand the question.

God is the creator of all that exists.. proclaiming, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh." To me, Elijah's spirit is a portion/inheritance of God's Spirit, and dwelling within him.. Just as our bodies are a portion/inheritance of Adam's body.

 

[Harmonious]

I agree.

Cool.

I agree with this as well. One thing, our generations have to face, is that the Genesis creation serves less as a literal account.

Sometimes yes, sometimes, no.

The actual first three chapters are probably not at all literal.

I mean, for the simple timing... There were nights, and there were days, but the sun and the moon weren't even created until the FOURTH day.

I have no problem believing that these were time spans of billion years that were called "days" so that we could better understand them.

Or, if they were simply 24 or so hour days... It wouldn't bother me, either way.

But the interaction between the people is the thing that needs to be focused on, in Genesis.

I definitely need to brush up more on these Bible events. The chronology would help me here, but I have a feeling you have it down well enough for both of us in this occasion. Did Abraham argue anymore after he was told to sacrifice Isaac?

Not that I'm aware of.

As far as arguing for Sodom and Gomorrah.. Abraham soon realized that God is the source of righteousness, and would not "consume the righteous with the wicked."

You know, while all of this sounds good, you are missing something rather important. And that is that in Genesis 18:17, it says, "17. And the Lord said, "Shall I conceal from Abraham what I am doing?"

From then until the end of the passage, the narrative explains why God thought that Abraham was worthy of this. But if you follow it in the text, in full context, it looks very much like God was spoiling for a test of wills. And you know, if there WOULD have been ten righteous men, I'm willing to bet that God WOULD have saved at least that one town.

But there weren't, so God "went away" after He agreed that He would save the towns if there were at least ten righteous men. But there weren't. There was Lot and his family, and even they were questionable. And the great fix was to remove Lot from Sodom.

Abraham hadn't yet realized that what God says He will do, He will do according to His perfection in judgement among other things.

I believe that if God does/says anything, it is righteous. In this case, by telling Moses what He would do, God knowingly caused Moses to intercede. I also believe that Moses' ignorance caused him to say things contrary to God. Moses spoke still learning that God is righteous in all things. Moses came closer to knowing this in the ensuing events.

See, the thing is that you are assuming causality.

You have assumed, because it is part of your belief system, that all that is divine is perfect, and cannot be questioned.

I am of the mind that all that is divine is perfect, but everything on earth can be questioned. It should be obeyed, but questioned to the fullest.

There are rules of engagement for when to accept when to "just accept it" and when to question. There are limits to how much we can say, "I don't get it," and for when we should turn to a higher authority and find out "how," "what," "how much," and, when applicable, "why." The "who," "where," and "how" are usually more straightforward, but not necessarily.

Abraham, and the other righteous men (and women) in Tanach are not passive believers. They are active in their service to God, and they question, and they discuss everything.

Yes, the end result is always that God is good, but God also understands that simply passively accepting isn't what Jews do, and to be honest, I'm not sure that is what He would want.

Genesis 32:27 It says God told him. What I meant was that instead of God doing it by other means, Moses and the sons of Levi were the instruments used for the purpose of those killings.

Well... Exodus 32:27, anyway.

Yes, Moses and the sons of Levi were the instruments used for that purpose. But I'm not convinced that it was solely Moses' decision to just do it. That type of punishment has to be from divine decree, even if it isn't explicitly stated.

Yes. I know much of it wasn't written.

Good. We agree.

What did you have in mind?

I don't know. Moses in the Pentateuch chronologically came before Gideon, in the Book of Judges. I really didn't understand your logic in changing them around.

Unless it was simply easier to finish a discussion about Gideon than it was to finish a discussion about Moses.

Where is that from?

To be honest, I don't know. It is a common statement amongst Jewish learning. I would have to look it up to give you a more direct answer.

Have you ever wondered why you choose one thing over another? What causes that?

I imagine that there are many factors. Sometimes laziness. Sometimes industriousness. Sometimes, I recognize that God saves me from myself, when I see that I might have intended to do something that I shouldn't, and after I thought about it was glad that I didn't do what I originally intended.

My choices are my own. God sometimes directs my hand to help me make a better choice.

I, like other people, can choose to be righteous. Sometimes, God helps me stay with my intentions better than I might have imagined at the time.

Or, God forbid, one could make other choices, and God, seeing a pattern, could help one in their chosen direction away from the path.

I have free choice. I am not a programmed automaton.

 

[Harmonious]

God is the creator of all that exists.. proclaiming, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh." To me, Elijah's spirit is a portion/inheritance of God's Spirit, and dwelling within him.. Just as our bodies are a portion/inheritance of Adam's body.

All people have a portion of Adam's body, and all people have a portion of God's Spirit.

We are all in God's image. Since God doesn't actually have a physical image, that means that the spirituality of God is present in all people.

Whether they choose to use it or abuse it is up to them.

 

[Sleeppy]

All people have a portion of Adam's body, and all people have a portion of God's Spirit.

We are all in God's image. Since God doesn't actually have a physical image, that means that the spirituality of God is present in all people.

Which is my point from the beginning. "Ask the Father in my name.." The way I interpret that along with the other instances, where Jesus says similar, is that He is speaking of His Spirit. In the same way that Elisha performed and prayed in Elijah's name - his spirit.

 

[Harmonious]

Which is my point from the beginning. "Ask the Father in my name.." The way I interpret that along with the other instances, where Jesus says similar, is that He is speaking of His Spirit. In the same way that Elisha performed and prayed in Elijah's name - his spirit.

No. Elisha might have prayed, asking in Elijah's merit. This is a concept I don't understand.

However, asking anyone to pray "in my name" is going down a bad road, no matter who it is.

And setting one's self up as an intermediary, "none comes to the Father but through me" is pure idolatry.

 

[Sleeppy]

Not that I'm aware of.

I'll read again.

You know, while all of this sounds good, you are missing something rather important. And that is that in Genesis 18:17, it says, "17. And the Lord said, "Shall I conceal from Abraham what I am doing?"

What do you say it means? Why do you think I'm missing that?

From then until the end of the passage, the narrative explains why God thought that Abraham was worthy of this. But if you follow it in the text, in full context, it looks very much like God was spoiling for a test of wills. And you know, if there WOULD have been ten righteous men, I'm willing to bet that God WOULD have saved at least that one town.

If God said He would, I believe it.

But there weren't, so God "went away" after He agreed that He would save the towns if there were at least ten righteous men. But there weren't. There was Lot and his family, and even they were questionable. And the great fix was to remove Lot from Sodom.

See, the thing is that you are assuming causality.

You have assumed, because it is part of your belief system, that all that is divine is perfect, and cannot be questioned.

I am of the mind that all that is divine is perfect, but everything on earth can be questioned. It should be obeyed, but questioned to the fullest.

There are rules of engagement for when to accept when to "just accept it" and when to question. There are limits to how much we can say, "I don't get it," and for when we should turn to a higher authority and find out "how," "what," "how much," and, when applicable, "why." The "who," "where," and "how" are usually more straightforward, but not necessarily.

Abraham, and the other righteous men (and women) in Tanach are not passive believers. They are active in their service to God, and they question, and they discuss everything.

Yes, the end result is always that God is good, but God also understands that simply passively accepting isn't what Jews do, and to be honest, I'm not sure that is what He would want.

I actually do not believe that God's will can't be questioned. I think it's often a very good thing to question.. humbly, with the understanding that God's way is perfect. The way they talked, especially Moses, indicated to me, that they had forgotten that God knows best. They all seemed to forget that God knew what He was doing.

Well... Exodus 32:27, anyway.

Yes, Moses and the sons of Levi were the instruments used for that purpose. But I'm not convinced that it was solely Moses' decision to just do it. That type of punishment has to be from divine decree, even if it isn't explicitly stated.

I'm not saying that it was Moses' decision. When I look at Ex. 32:27, it says that it was God's decision.

I don't know. Moses in the Pentateuch chronologically came before Gideon, in the Book of Judges. I really didn't understand your logic in changing them around.

Unless it was simply easier to finish a discussion about Gideon than it was to finish a discussion about Moses.

I don't remember Gideon's account. I def. have to read it. I knew I could respond more to Moses' because I remember it, and I've been looking over it for our discussion. So, I lumped Gideon up with the others you mentioned.

To be honest, I don't know. It is a common statement amongst Jewish learning. I would have to look it up to give you a more direct answer.

I imagine that there are many factors. Sometimes laziness. Sometimes industriousness. Sometimes, I recognize that God saves me from myself, when I see that I might have intended to do something that I shouldn't, and after I thought about it was glad that I didn't do what I originally intended.

My choices are my own. God sometimes directs my hand to help me make a better choice.

I, like other people, can choose to be righteous. Sometimes, God helps me stay with my intentions better than I might have imagined at the time.

Or, God forbid, one could make other choices, and God, seeing a pattern, could help one in their chosen direction away from the path.

I have free choice. I am not a programmed automaton.

I don't think we're as simple as automatons are.. But I believe will has to do with our being and how our being reacts to experiences. You know.. I've often wondered why it's so hard for me to remember certain things. Or.. why I have certain fears or joys. What causes the factors behind our wills? To me, will has a likeness to our preferences. I don't like bananas because my taste buds don't react well to them. I can will to like them, but unless I can manipulate the process for that dislike, I'll always dislike them.

 

[Sleeppy]

No. Elisha might have prayed, asking in Elijah's merit. This is a concept I don't understand.

However, asking anyone to pray "in my name" is going down a bad road, no matter who it is.

And setting one's self up as an intermediary, "none comes to the Father but through me" is pure idolatry.

For what specific reasons? Would you elaborate?

 

[Harmonious]

I'll read again.

Very good.

What do you say it means? Why do you think I'm missing that?

Because, in context, God is setting up for a confrontation with Abraham.

You would otherwise have me believe that Abraham should have just gone along peacefully, and accepted God's judgment with out the argument.

If God said He would, I believe it.

18:32 - So he (Abraham) said, "Let not my Lord be annoyed and I will speak but this once: What if ten would be found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy on account of the ten."

The next verse has God departing, because there were NOT ten, and God didn't want Abraham to argue down from ten.

I actually do not believe that God's will can't be questioned. I think it's often a very good thing to question.. humbly, with the understanding that God's way is perfect.

Yup. Humbly. There is always a time, place, and method for this kind of thing.

The way they talked, especially Moses, indicated to me, that they had forgotten that God knows best. They all seemed to forget that God knew what He was doing.

That is your bias showing, rather than context, but you are as free to your beliefs as I am to mine.

I'm not saying that it was Moses' decision. When I look at Ex. 32:27, it says that it was God's decision.

Oh, good.

I don't remember Gideon's account. I def. have to read it. I knew I could respond more to Moses' because I remember it, and I've been looking over it for our discussion. So, I lumped Gideon up with the others you mentioned.

Gideon's account begins in Judges Chapter 6.

I don't think we're as simple as automatons are.. But I believe will has to do with our being and how our being reacts to experiences. You know.. I've often wondered why it's so hard for me to remember certain things. Or.. why I have certain fears or joys. What causes the factors behind our wills? To me, will has a likeness to our preferences. I don't like bananas because my taste buds don't react well to them. I can will to like them, but unless I can manipulate the process for that dislike, I'll always dislike them.

Okay.