Blasphemy?

[Sleeppy]

I want to bring to mind this conversation.

Further... You fail to comprehend the Jewish perspective on arguing with God in a legal battle.

We have such a story, and God was proud of His Jewish children who defeated Him, as the Torah is no longer in Heaven, and it is what was taught to the Jews, from God, to Moses, to the sages, to our teachers.

So, yes - God commanded the specifications of who and what the Messiah will be. And not even God Himself can change the rules.

Yes, people aren't perfect. But Jews have been commanded to look to our teachers, human though they are. Individuals might be wrong, but we believe in our teachers.

So in short: yes, we can tell God what we expect. Especially when we quote back what we were taught what to expect.

I've had this conversation with you and Jayhawker. If you want to argue about idolatry, what is that?

I haven't failed to comprehend anything I've said to you. It disturbs me very greatly to hear you saying that you, the creation, can overcome the Creator. There is one God. One Almighty. One All-knowing. So in what sense is He overcome? In the mind of a nation largely given over to arrogance? The Almighty is the one who has given your teachers over to corruption and evil ignorance. You've relied too much on the creation, and are slowly and silently being choked by idolatry. Don't you know that there is no righteous man, ever, without God making him so? There have always been Jews believing they were/are chosen by their merit, when it is God who created every being on this planet. It is God Almighty who exalted them above Egypt, as an example, not only to everyone else, but to themselves as well. Without God, the Israelites were evil, as was the world around them. Don't make God out to be some wavering pushover. He's always had a plan, and we have no power over it. We are following. Don't think we are leading.

Part of your response to the above..

That is a horribly slanderous thing to say. Of course there are righteous people. I will admit that there are no PERFECT people.

But then again, according to my belief system, God doesn't judge on an "all or nothing" merit system. It is more along the lines of "we do our best, and God will do the rest." No one is perfect, but God. God knows this, and doesn't demand or command the impossible. We are expected to try our best to do what we can, and we are exempt from what we cannot do, until the circumstances change that would make it possible to perform again.

The demand for perfection in human performance was an ego-driven invention of Jesus to create the need of a demi-god to "fix" an impossibility that HE demanded. Who was he, to make such demands? THIS is self-promotional self-deification on his part.

(See? That door swings both ways.)

I also noticed your post in the Jeremiah thread. Either way you to want to translate it, God is still the source of righteousness. Not men. Notice it says God raises the righteous shoot, not that the righteous shoot raised itself.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 Lo, days are coming -- an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have raised to David a righteous shoot, And a king hath reigned and acted wisely, And done judgment and righteousness in the earth. In his days is Judah saved, and Israel dwelleth confidently, And this his name that Jehovah proclaimeth him, 'Our Righteousness.'

 

[arthra]

If YHWY says "Though shall have no other gods before me" Exodus 20:3 Deuteronomy 5:7....

Is believing in Jesus as GOD, or even as a gateway that you NEED to go through before you get to GOD... actually breaking the first commandment?

What is blasphemy?

"...to speak impiously or irreverently of (God or sacred things)."

Jesus was accused of blaspheming...

9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

I think Jesus was accused but I don't think He was blasphemous..

The belief that "Jesus was God" is based on doctrines that arose later..and also I think is based on a misunderstanding...

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

First John 4:12

(King James Bible)

Also Jesus said:

22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 22:37

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6:5.

I believe there were later some followers of Jesus who believed He was God.

 

[cocolia42]

If YHWY says "Though shall have no other gods before me" Exodus 20:3 Deuteronomy 5:7....

Is believing in Jesus as GOD, or even as a gateway that you NEED to go through before you get to GOD... actually breaking the first commandment?

Yes, that would be breaking the first commandment. Jesus is not God. He's a prophet.
When Jesus said in John 14:6 that no one comes to the Father except through him, it meant believing the words of God's prophets, it did not mean that Jesus will decide who gets into heaven.

 

[Harmonious]

Who said that passage is about talking to God through Jesus?

Simple context. Unless you somehow get something ELSE out of the words "None come to the Father but through me..."

People-->Jesus-->God

The whole need for Jesus as the middleman in the way described there is idolatrous.

Like I said, unless you get something else out of that passage. And if you do, I'd like to see what that is.

 

[Harmonious]

Interesting language used to refer to Israel using he, him, his.. If that's what you're saying?

Yup.

Sometimes, Israel as a nation is described as a woman, with God as the husband. Sometimes, Israel as a nation is described as One Man, One Heart. And so, yes, all of that he, him, his is referring to Israel.

A bad judgement on who's part?

Who ever came up with the idea of the bronze snake.

Remember - the snake was supposed to be a tool to help people focus. It was generally unnecessary, as far as prayer went in general.

Put your points out more clearly. You're right it was supposed to be used as a learning tool, and was. And Jesus did fulfill a very similar role. Grow out of Jesus? You've answered that below.

As noted above, the bronze serpent served the same purpose. The Father's power healed them by their faith in the serpent's purpose. No one should look at the bronze serpent as God. And no one should look at the human Jesus as God. It was the Spirit in Him that is God.

You realize that only some Christians agree with you. Other Christians would say that Jesus was man and God in one body...

In any event, Jesus is entirely unnecessary, by my belief system, and the way my belief system functions considering non-Jews.

 

[Harmonious]

What? Exodus 3:2 came to mind first.. Among many other instances.

Hmm...

Was Moses speaking to the bush as an entity, or did the bush catch Moses attention, and Moses spoke to God?

 

[Harmonious]

I want to bring to mind this conversation.



I've had this conversation with you and Jayhawker. If you want to argue about idolatry, what is that?

A discussion about Torah. The Torah isn't in Heaven, it is here on earth. And if out-arguing a position in Torah (not to twist the Law, but arguing for the sake of Heaven) is a discussion.

Talking Torah isn't idolatry, so I'm not quite sure what you are going for, here.

Part of your response to the above..

I also noticed your post in the Jeremiah thread. Either way you to want to translate it, God is still the source of righteousness. Not men. Notice it says God raises the righteous shoot, not that the righteous shoot raised itself.

What a way to take things out of context.

Righteousness can come from all sorts of places, people included.

But God is the source of all things, including righteousness. Does this mean that people can never be righteous? No.

 

[Sleeppy]

Hmm...

Was Moses speaking to the bush as an entity, or did the bush catch Moses attention, and Moses spoke to God?

What does your translation say? The ones I've seen say the 'messenger/angel' spoke to Moses. There's probably quite a few instances where God sent messengers to speak.. Not to mention, Moses was the one going up and down mountains speaking to God.

 

[Harmonious]

What does your translation say? The ones I've seen say the 'messenger/angel' spoke to Moses. There's probably quite a few instances where God sent messengers to speak..

Ah. Well, I see that I was mistaken.

If God sends an angel to speak to someone, I guess speaking to the angel isn't such a bad thing.

However, if God sends an angel to be God's mouthpiece, that is not prayer, but dealing with prophecy.

Further, when one is focused on prayer, one should not seek angels to be messengers. A human has only to open his mouth for God to hear him or her.

And even when they can't speak, God knows.

Not to mention, Moses was the one going up and down mountains speaking to God.

To receive prophecy, yes. But to be a go-between concerning prayer, not at all.

He might have offered his own prayers on behalf of Israel, but not as a special conduit. God favored him, and he asked for Israel to be saved.

 

[Sleeppy]

A discussion about Torah. The Torah isn't in Heaven, it is here on earth. And if out-arguing a position in Torah (not to twist the Law, but arguing for the sake of Heaven) is a discussion.

Talking Torah isn't idolatry, so I'm not quite sure what you are going for, here.

I don't know what you're saying there. Clarify if you want.

What a way to take things out of context.

Righteousness can come from all sorts of places, people included.

But God is the source of all things, including righteousness. Does this mean that people can never be righteous? No.

Righteousness doesn't originate in people. Righteousness originates with God. So, if a person is righteous, it is because of God.

 

[Harmonious]

I don't know what you're saying there. Clarify if you want.

I guess this is a moment of mutual confusion.

When the scholars "out-argued God," were you attempting to point this out as idolatry?

If not, then I think we're good. But if so, I'm not sure that I understand why you brought this particular set of passages from the other thread.

Righteousness doesn't originate in people. Righteousness originates with God. So, if a person is righteous, it is because of God.

Well, okay.

People can choose to be righteous, following God. God doesn't have to override a human's responses for them to be righteous.

 

[Sleeppy]

Ah. Well, I see that I was mistaken.

If God sends an angel to speak to someone, I guess speaking to the angel isn't such a bad thing.

However, if God sends an angel to be God's mouthpiece, that is not prayer, but dealing with prophecy.

Further, when one is focused on prayer, one should not seek angels to be messengers. A human has only to open his mouth for God to hear him or her.

And even when they can't speak, God knows.

To receive prophecy, yes. But to be a go-between concerning prayer, not at all.

He might have offered his own prayers on behalf of Israel, but not as a special conduit. God favored him, and he asked for Israel to be saved.

Prayer. It's an interesting subject, huh?

As far as I know, there is no instance in the Gospels of anyone praying to Jesus. I'm sure you're aware of the Lord's Prayer.. "Our Father, who art in Heaven..." and "Ask the Father, in my name.."

 

[Harmonious]

Prayer. It's an interesting subject, huh?

As far as I know, there is no instance in the Gospels of anyone praying to Jesus. I'm sure you're aware of the Lord's Prayer.. "Our Father, who art in Heaven..." and "Ask the Father, in my name.."

It's the whole "Ask the Father, in my name" that concerns me.

That, and "None comes to the Father but through me..."

These things seem to say that unless someone "prays in the name of Jesus," then their prayers won't be heard by God.

That is idolatry.

 

[Sleeppy]

I guess this is a moment of mutual confusion.

When the scholars "out-argued God," were you attempting to point this out as idolatry?

If not, then I think we're good. But if so, I'm not sure that I understand why you brought this particular set of passages from the other thread.

How does anyone have any authority over what God says or does? I do see how it can seem that way.. but this is an Almighty, All-knowing God, we're talking about. The mindset that says God is outmatched in any way or "out-argued" is idolatry to me. Again, I'm aware of instances where it may have seemed that way.

Well, okay.

People can choose to be righteous, following God. God doesn't have to override a human's responses for them to be righteous.

Where does the choice come from?

 

[Sleeppy]

It's the whole "Ask the Father, in my name" that concerns me.

That, and "None comes to the Father but through me..."

These things seem to say that unless someone "prays in the name of Jesus," then their prayers won't be heard by God.

That is idolatry.

Let me ask you this.. Who gave Elijah his spirit and power?

 

[Harmonious]

How does anyone have any authority over what God says or does?

It isn't a matter of authority over what God says or does, but a matter of authority on what God commanded the Jews to do.

We understand that the simplest definition of a false prophet is someone who says, in God's name, that any part of the Torah (Written or Oral) is false.

And the idea of understanding Torah Law such that God stating a "new opinion" in such a way that negates what He said before, and the Jews calling Him out on it... Means that the Jews who argued this paid enough care and attention to learning God's Word and God's Law that it makes God happy to know that we care as much as we do.

I do see how it can seem that way.. but this is an Almighty, All-knowing God, we're talking about. The mindset that says God is outmatched in any way or "out-argued" is idolatry to me. Again, I'm aware of instances where it may have seemed that way.

What are you talking about? Arguing with God is something that the Jews have been doing since before we were properly Jews. Abraham argued with God over the fate of the Five Cities (most particularly Sodom and Amora). He lost that one, but it is one of the reasons that Abraham is considered greater than Noah as a human being, at least by Jews. Abraham argued with God to try to save the lives of the wicked ones of his generation. Noah didn't.

Moses argued with God about actually being the chosen one to save the Jews from Egypt. (He lost that one.) He argued with God about not destroying the Jews after the Sin of the Golden Calf. Moses won that one.

Gideon argued with God over his appointment as a Judge, and he was considered a righteous judge. Gideon lost that one.

Arguing with God is one of those things that Jews have always done, and when we win the argument, God is proud of us.

Where does the choice come from?

Free will. True, that free will is God-given...

 

[Harmonious]

Let me ask you this.. Who gave Elijah his spirit and power?

God did. But what does this have to do with anything?

Jews don't pray in the name of Elijah. We ask God to hasten Elijah the Herald's arrival, but we don't pray in his name.

 

[Levite]

It isn't a matter of authority over what God says or does, but a matter of authority on what God commanded the Jews to do.

We understand that the simplest definition of a false prophet is someone who says, in God's name, that any part of the Torah (Written or Oral) is false.

And the idea of understanding Torah Law such that God stating a "new opinion" in such a way that negates what He said before, and the Jews calling Him out on it... Means that the Jews who argued this paid enough care and attention to learning God's Word and God's Law that it makes God happy to know that we care as much as we do.

What are you talking about? Arguing with God is something that the Jews have been doing since before we were properly Jews. Abraham argued with God over the fate of the Five Cities (most particularly Sodom and Amora). He lost that one, but it is one of the reasons that Abraham is considered greater than Noah as a human being, at least by Jews. Abraham argued with God to try to save the lives of the wicked ones of his generation. Noah didn't.

Moses argued with God about actually being the chosen one to save the Jews from Egypt. (He lost that one.) He argued with God about not destroying the Jews after the Sin of the Golden Calf. Moses won that one.

Gideon argued with God over his appointment as a Judge, and he was considered a righteous judge. Gideon lost that one.

Arguing with God is one of those things that Jews have always done, and when we win the argument, God is proud of us.

Free will. True, that free will is God-given...

I would frubal this many times, if I could.

 

[Harmonious]

I would frubal this many times, if I could.

Thank you.

 

[Sleeppy]

It isn't a matter of authority over what God says or does, but a matter of authority on what God commanded the Jews to do.

We understand that the simplest definition of a false prophet is someone who says, in God's name, that any part of the Torah (Written or Oral) is false.

That's very interesting. I'll keep that in mind.

And the idea of understanding Torah Law such that God stating a "new opinion" in such a way that negates what He said before, and the Jews calling Him out on it... Means that the Jews who argued this paid enough care and attention to learning God's Word and God's Law that it makes God happy to know that we care as much as we do.

Why do you think the All-knowing God negates things He's said?

What are you talking about? Arguing with God is something that the Jews have been doing since before we were properly Jews. Abraham argued with God over the fate of the Five Cities (most particularly Sodom and Amora). He lost that one, but it is one of the reasons that Abraham is considered greater than Noah as a human being, at least by Jews. Abraham argued with God to try to save the lives of the wicked ones of his generation. Noah didn't.

Abraham did not argue for his son Isaac. Genesis 22. Wasn't this his defining moment? God told Abraham that he would not be able to count his seed. He later gave him a child through Sarah and asked Abraham to sacrifice him. Abraham on the way assured his son that God would provide the lamb. But, still he motioned toward the sacrifice. Abraham had grown to know God. Thus..

Genesis 22: 16-18 'By Myself I have sworn -- the affirmation of Jehovah -- that because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only one -- that blessing I bless thee, and multiplying I multiply thy seed as stars of the heavens, and as sand which [is] on the sea-shore; and thy seed doth possess the gate of his enemies; and blessed themselves in thy seed have all nations of the earth, because that thou hast hearkened to My voice.'

Gideon argued with God over his appointment as a Judge, and he was considered a righteous judge. Gideon lost that one.

Arguing with God is one of those things that Jews have always done, and when we win the argument, God is proud of us.

I don't see argument in these cases, I see confusion. God knew all along what He was doing and what these patriarchs were doing and would do.

Moses argued with God about actually being the chosen one to save the Jews from Egypt. (He lost that one.) He argued with God about not destroying the Jews after the Sin of the Golden Calf. Moses won that one.

I've read the instance of the Golden Calf and wondered. Again, I see confusion. Moses did not know what God had known. There was no argument. Moses spoke in his ignorance, but God accepted the intercession for the time it took Moses to fill himself of God's knowledge of their "great sin." Moses and the sons of Levi took upon themselves what God was going to do by killing "about 3000." Moses then tries atoning for their sin. It isn't accepted. The chapter ends with God plaguing the people.

Free will. True, that free will is God-given...

I'm wondering what free will is. What is it?