• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Biden Wants All Banks To Report Transactions To IRS

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't ignore it. I deem it irrelevant.

It directly refutes your constant claims of socialist "failure" and "stagnation," so it's certainly not irrelevant. If your point is that their standard of living is lower than that of the USA and other governments we've propped up, then that's another matter. But the reasons for that have absolutely nothing to do with the system. That's where you are in error.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It directly refutes your constant claims of socialist "failure" and "stagnation," so it's certainly not irrelevant.
That misses the concept.
The USSR is a socialist example inferior to a great
many capitalist countries. Your claim that it was an
improvement over Tsarist Russia is irrelevant cuz
it's about what works best...not what what was slightly
better than something that was worse.
 
Last edited:

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You're still missing the concept.
The USSR is a socialist example inferior to a great
many capitalist countries. Your claim that it was an
improvement over Tsarist Russia is irrelevant cuz
it's about what works best...not what what was slightly
better than something that was worse.

For them, it did work best. The fact remains that every socialist country that has ever existed did markedly improve over what they had before. To compare that to nations which were already centuries ahead of them in industry and technology is what is truly irrelevant here.

By your logic, capitalist Chad should have had a much higher standard of living than the USSR - and it should have been equal to the United States, since they're both capitalist. Since that's clearly not the case, then obviously the system has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps you should look for other reasons why some countries fail and others do not.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If you're saying that the USSR was the best economic
& political system of all, then....holy cow.

Did you miss the part that said "for them"? It was obvious that capitalism wasn't working for them under the Tsar. It led to total disaster and national ruination.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nope.
It's irrelevant.

I disagree.

BTW, the best system for them wasn't socialism
after all. They ditched that, & are now capitalist.

From all indications, Russia is a country in the grip of organized crime and ultra-nationalism.

Here's something to chew on: 75% of Russians Say Soviet Union Was Greatest Time in Country’s History – Poll - The Moscow Times

Three out of four Russians think the Soviet era was the best time in their country’s history, according to a survey published by the independent Levada Center pollster on Tuesday.

Russians have expressed increasingly positive opinions about the Soviet Union over the years, with nostalgia toward the U.S.S.R. and approval of Stalin hitting record highs in the past year or so.

Just 18% of Russian respondents said they disagree with the idea that the Soviet Union was the best time in their country’s history, Levada said.

Despite this, only 28% of respondents said they would want to “return to the path that the Soviet Union was following.” Fifty-eight said they support Russia's “own, special way” and 10% said they preferred the European path of development.

When asked to name the things they associate with the Soviet era, 16% of respondents pointed to “future stability and confidence” and 15% said they associated it with “a good life in the country.” Eleven percent said they associate the Soviet era with personal memories from their childhood or youth.

Only a small portion of those surveyed said they had negative associations with the Soviet Union. The economic deficit, long lines and coupons were named by 4% of respondents each, while the Iron Curtain, economic stagnation and political repressions were named by 1% each, the Levada Center said.

Levada sociologist Karina Pipiya told the Vedomosti business daily that while Russians tend to view the Soviet era in a mostly positive light, their personal memories of that time have largely been replaced by a general image of social stability, confidence in the future and a good life during that time.

According to Pipiya, nostalgia for the Soviet Union is more common among older generations, but it exists among younger people as well. The so-called romanticization of the Soviet past doesn’t necessarily equal a wish for the Soviet system’s return, Vedomosti quoted Pipia as saying.

Andrei Kolesnikov, a senior associate at the Carnegie Center Moscow think tank, told Vedomosti that the poll’s results are a reflection of the public’s sentiments toward Russia’s current reality.

“The Soviet era may not be seen as a time of high living standards, but as a time of justice. Today's state capitalism is viewed as unfair: the injustice is in distribution, access to goods and infrastructure. And this feeling is growing stronger,” Vedomosti quoted Kolesnikov as saying.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
From all indications, Russia is a country in the grip of organized crime and ultra-nationalism.
As it was under socialism. Organized crime thrived
in the USSR because the black markets were needed
for survival. The corruption spanned all classes.
When they ditched socialism, the criminal element
filled the vacuum created by collapse of the state
Socialism made Russia what it is today.
Still missing the point, eh.
I prefer the system that gives the best results.
You're arguing the irrelevant point that a particular
socialist system is better than a particularly bad
capitalist one.
You're not coming out to say so, but I suspect you
believe the USSR to be better (per your goals &
values) than any capitalist country. To openly
declare that would be hard to defend indeed.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As it was under socialism. Organized crime thrived
in the USSR because the black markets were needed
for survival. The corruption spanned all classes.
When they ditched socialism, the criminal element
filled the vacuum created by collapse of the state
Socialism made Russia what it is today.

There were black markets and gray markets at a lower level, but there's very little evidence of any actual "organized crime." The streets were incredibly safe for the citizenry, even in large cities - day or night. After the dissolution of the USSR, the remnants of the old KGB morphed into what became known as the "Russian Mafia," which is the main reason why a small percentage of Muscovites are doing quite well for themselves under the current regime. But that's definitely not true for the vast majority of Russians today.

Still missing the point, eh.
I prefer the system that gives the best results.
You're arguing the irrelevant point that a particular
socialist system is better than a particularly bad
capitalist one.

Oh, I get the point you're trying to make pretty well. As you say, you prefer the system that gives the best results, but I think that point is based on an erroneous premise. You seem to believe that a country's success or failure is based solely on an abstract "system" - and nothing else.

Your basic argument implies that one can ignore the location of a country, their climate, percentage of arable land, their availability of year-round seaports, their proximity to powerful countries which are enemies, the size of the population, the availability/accessibility of resources, history of invasion/exploitation, history of classist tyranny, the general state of infrastructure/industry under the previous regime, and the general standard of living and overall condition of the country at the time the "system" was implemented.

You deem all of that "irrelevant" (as if you can make such grand proclamations), and keep insisting that it's all about the "system" and nothing else. I reject the entire premise of your argument and the line of reasoning leading up to it.

If, according to you, the United States produced better results, it was more due to luck than anything else. Don't get me wrong; I like living in the United States and I was raised in a patriotic family. I was reminded on a near daily basis how lucky and fortunate I was to be born in America, and perhaps that might be true. Some people even suggest that America has been blessed by God. I don't believe that, of course, but in my opinion, even that's a more probable explanation for America's good fortune than anything we can attribute to a magical "system."

You're not coming out to say so, but I suspect you
believe the USSR to be better (per your goals &
values) than any capitalist country. To openly
declare that would be hard to defend indeed.

Ah, your inner McCarthy is showing through.

Nevertheless, I never argued or claimed that the USSR was "better" than any capitalist country. I know that the United States was materially, industrially, and technologically better off than numerous countries, particularly in the decades immediately following WW2, when most of the world was devastated - except for us.

The USSR and China both suffered extremely in that war, far more than any other participant in that conflict. Despite that enormous handicap (which we didn't have), they still rose from the ashes and became formidable adversaries of the West in a relatively short period of time. They didn't get there by sitting on their butts and doing nothing.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
As you say, you prefer the system that gives the best results, but I think that point is based on an erroneous premise. You seem to believe that a country's success or failure is based solely on an abstract "system" - and nothing else.
That's ridiculous.
I based it upon results in the real world.
It's the socialists who believe in a theory never shown
to work well (if one values social & economic liberty).

But you just might get another try at it....
Biden's new comrade: How Soviet-born nominee idolized Karl Marx at Moscow State University | Daily Mail Online
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That's ridiculous.
I based it upon results in the real world.

If this is true, then why do you say that it's due to a magical "system" and not due to actual real world factors which you consistently fail to acknowledge?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If this is true, then why do you say that it's due to a magical "system" and not due to actual real world factors which you consistently fail to acknowledge?
So you believe I claimed that capitalism is "magical",
as opposed to a stochastic process with emergent
properties I prefer to socialism's results.
It appears to be an impossible concept to get across.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So you believe I claimed that capitalism is "magical",
as opposed to a stochastic process with emergent
properties I prefer to socialism's results.
It appears to be an impossible concept to get across.

I believe that you ignore numerous real world factors which contribute to a country's success or failure. You compare results, but you don't seem to understand the history or the processes which lead to said results. You consistently ignore it or deem it irrelevant, mainly because it's inconvenient to your argument.

I mean, there is a lot of history which transpired on this continent from about 1607 up until the present. A lot of different commodities produced, resources mined, industries built, railroads, telegraphs. It took a great deal of sweat and labor to make all that happen, but rather than acknowledge any of that or even bother to mention it, you just attribute it all to a single word: "Capitalism." And I'm supposed to believe that you don't see it as "magical"?
 
Top