Biblical Scripture, a Hard Look

[Skwim]

A lot of different claims are made about Biblical scripture: It's the word of god, it's infallible, it's inerrant, its words are the exact words of god, its words are those of its writers.

In light of the fact that the Bible does have errors in it (Ezra 2:15 The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four. Vs. Nehemiah 7:20 The children of Adin, six hundred fifty and five.) I took a look into the nature of the claims made for it:

(All emphases mine)​

I've presented the following claims to show that they are, in fact, current beliefs. I don't expect all Christians to agree with all of them.

CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS THE "WORD OF GOD"

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

There are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One is the historicity of the Bible.

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of its human authors.

A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible.
source​

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to give you five reasons to affirm the Bible is the Word of God.

First Peter 1:25 says: “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
source​

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, God has spoken, and He has not stuttered. The God of truth has given us the Word of Truth, and it does not contain any untruth in it. The Bible is the unerring Word of God.
source​

______________________________________________


CLAIMS THAT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE CAME FROM GOD

When people speak of the Bible as inspired, they are referring to the fact that God divinely influenced the human authors of the Scriptures in such a way that what they wrote was the very Word of God. In the context of the Scriptures, the word “inspiration” simply means “God-breathed.” Inspiration means the Bible truly is the Word of God and makes the Bible unique among all other books.

While there are different views as to the extent to which the Bible is inspired, there can be no doubt that the Bible itself claims that every word in every part of the Bible comes from God
source​

______________________Vs_____________________


CLAIMS THAT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE DID NOT COME FROM GOD

. . .most Christians conclude that God provided the precise thought to the human author, and he then wrote it down in terms of his own vocabulary, culture, education, and writing style. So we have here no wooden, single-colored document, but a many-faceted and dynamic book.

. . .many Christians believe that inspiration should be described as thought-for-thought rather than word-for-word. The human writers provide God’s message in terms of their own personalities and historical circumstances, and yet they transmit the message fully and exactly as God desired.
source​

_____________________________________________

INFALLIBLE Vs INERRANT, an explanation

There are two theological terms that are often used to explain the nature of the Bible - inerrancy and infallibility. They are used to point out how the Bible is different from all other books that have ever been written.

The Word Infallible Means Trustworthy

When referring to Scripture, the term infallible is usually used to mean reliable and trustworthy. It refers to something that is without any type of defect whatsoever. Those who trust its infallible teachings will never be lead astray.

Inerrancy Means There Are No Errors Whatsoever

Inerrancy contends that the Bible does not have any errors of fact or any statements that contradict.
source​

_____________________________________________

CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS INFALLIBLE

A second important characteristic of Scripture is its infallibility.
source

---------------------------------------

We also believe that there is sufficient evidence that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. The Scriptures themselves testify, “All Scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). If they contain error, then one must call it God-inspired error.
source

-------------------------------------------

May all who read this adopt Jesus” attitude and become subject both to Him as Living Word (living Torah) and to the Bible as the infallible, written Word of God.
source​

______________________________________________


CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS INERRANT

A Definition of Inerrancy
The word inerrancy means “freedom from error or untruths.” Synonyms inlcude “certainty, assuredness, objective certainty, infallibility.”​

It is important to bear in mind that belief in inerrancy is in keeping with the character of God. If God is true and He is (Rom. 3:4), and if God breathed out the Scripture, then the Scripture, being the product of God, must also be true. This is why the Psalmist affirms, “All your words are true” (Ps. 119:160a).

Inerrancy demands the account does not teach error or contradiction. In the statements of Scripture, whatever is written is in accord with things as they are.
source

------------------------------------------

And just as Jesus was human but did not sin, even so the Bible is a human book but does not err.
source

------------------------------------------

Finally, there is the inerrancy of Scripture. Inerrancy is a natural outflow of infallibility in the traditional, orthodox sense. Since the authors could not err when writing Scripture, the bible contains no affirmations of anything that is contrary to fact.
source

​

So, from this we could conclude that the Bible is the word of god, all of which came directly from god or was at least inspired by him, and that these words are infallible if not inerrant.

But what does one do with the errors in the Bible's as pointed out above? Adin certainly couldn't have four hundred fifty and four children and also have six hundred fifty and five. One of the statements has to be false! Of course one could claim that through the years translators screwed up and misinterpreted one of the two figures, or perhaps even both. But what does this do to the claim of the Bible's infallibility and inerrancy? It pretty much does away with it. Considering the Bible is capable of passing along bogus information it's certainly a less than trustworthy book, which prompts one has to ask what other statements might be false; perhaps very crucial statements at that. Moreover, it's quite obvious the Bible isn't inerrant. The contradiction regarding the number of Adin's children being a blatant example.

And this takes us to the claim that the Bible is "the word of god"---typically taken as "His word" to be followed for generations to come. Granting that way back when, when god dictated each word or inspired them, the Bible was truly infallible and inerrant, and could legitimately said to be "His Word." But what can be said of it now? Errors have crept into his word that not only sow doubt as to the veracity of what is said, but have divided Christianity into thousands of individual denominations and sects. And all without a peep of correction from god himself. It's as if he really doesn't care. "Do with My Word what you will, and believe what you want. It isn't important." So, what's to be done with this exposé?

I didn't create this post to denigrate Christian belief, but to put some of it into perspective. I posted the terms above with their explanations to show just how badly Christians seem to be fooling themselves by accepting them without question. Now, if any Christian is comfortable with this, then fine. Go right ahead, but I believe a lot of Christians prefer their religious beliefs to be coherent and rational. If you truly want to spread Christianity then do it with an honest and clean presentation. Not one encumbered with embarrassing contradictions and complications. As I've tried to show, the Bible does have contradictions, which means it isn't infallible and inerrant, and that it may no no longer be the true Word of God, so don't try to sell it as if it is. Be honest with yourself and others. Take the good stuff and leave the rest behind.


.

 

[Neo Deist]

Nice long post. I will counter it with a short one.

The Autographs were the original writings of the Tanach (OT). They were destroyed when Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed the temples in Jerusalem back around 587 BC. The Autographs could be the inerrant/infallible Word of God. We have no way of knowing and can't prove it.

Not so hard of a look, though I understand you are basically agreeing with my premise.

 

[siti]

Here's a possible answer:

<<It appears to be a contradiction if the two passages were referring to the same count. But do they? Ezra's reckoning was more likely drawn when the returnees just recently arrived from Babylon: "Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city." Ezra 2:1.

Nehemiah's, on other hand, were counted several years after Ezra’s count, when the wall has been rebuilt and the doors have been set up:

"Now it came to pass, when the wall was built, and I had set up the doors, and the porters and the singers and the Levites were appointed... 6 These are the children of the province, that went up out of the captivity..." Nehemiah 7: 1-6

Considering the date from which these two books were written, number of each families would definitely be changed. It is also important to observe that these statistics never claimed completeness, for example, Benjamin and Judah clans were not included in this list.>>

From Cleared-up "Bible Contradictions"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A lot of different claims are made about Biblical scripture: It's the word of god, it's infallible, it's inerrant, its words are the exact words of god, its words are those of its writers.

In light of the fact that the Bible does have errors in it (Ezra 2:15 The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four. Vs. Nehemiah 7:20 The children of Adin, six hundred fifty and five.) I took a look into the nature of the claims made for it:

(All emphases mine)​

I've presented the following claims to show that they are, in fact, current beliefs. I don't expect all Christians to agree with all of them.

CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS THE "WORD OF GOD"

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

There are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One is the historicity of the Bible.

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of its human authors.

A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible.
source​

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to give you five reasons to affirm the Bible is the Word of God.

First Peter 1:25 says: “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
source​

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, God has spoken, and He has not stuttered. The God of truth has given us the Word of Truth, and it does not contain any untruth in it. The Bible is the unerring Word of God.
source​

______________________________________________


CLAIMS THAT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE CAME FROM GOD

When people speak of the Bible as inspired, they are referring to the fact that God divinely influenced the human authors of the Scriptures in such a way that what they wrote was the very Word of God. In the context of the Scriptures, the word “inspiration” simply means “God-breathed.” Inspiration means the Bible truly is the Word of God and makes the Bible unique among all other books.

While there are different views as to the extent to which the Bible is inspired, there can be no doubt that the Bible itself claims that every word in every part of the Bible comes from God
source​

______________________Vs_____________________


CLAIMS THAT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE DID NOT COME FROM GOD

. . .most Christians conclude that God provided the precise thought to the human author, and he then wrote it down in terms of his own vocabulary, culture, education, and writing style. So we have here no wooden, single-colored document, but a many-faceted and dynamic book.

. . .many Christians believe that inspiration should be described as thought-for-thought rather than word-for-word. The human writers provide God’s message in terms of their own personalities and historical circumstances, and yet they transmit the message fully and exactly as God desired.
source​

_____________________________________________

INFALLIBLE Vs INERRANT, an explanation

There are two theological terms that are often used to explain the nature of the Bible - inerrancy and infallibility. They are used to point out how the Bible is different from all other books that have ever been written.

The Word Infallible Means Trustworthy

When referring to Scripture, the term infallible is usually used to mean reliable and trustworthy. It refers to something that is without any type of defect whatsoever. Those who trust its infallible teachings will never be lead astray.

Inerrancy Means There Are No Errors Whatsoever

Inerrancy contends that the Bible does not have any errors of fact or any statements that contradict.
source​

_____________________________________________

CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS INFALLIBLE

A second important characteristic of Scripture is its infallibility.
source

---------------------------------------

We also believe that there is sufficient evidence that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. The Scriptures themselves testify, “All Scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). If they contain error, then one must call it God-inspired error.
source

-------------------------------------------

May all who read this adopt Jesus” attitude and become subject both to Him as Living Word (living Torah) and to the Bible as the infallible, written Word of God.
source​

______________________________________________


CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS INERRANT

A Definition of Inerrancy
The word inerrancy means “freedom from error or untruths.” Synonyms inlcude “certainty, assuredness, objective certainty, infallibility.”​

It is important to bear in mind that belief in inerrancy is in keeping with the character of God. If God is true and He is (Rom. 3:4), and if God breathed out the Scripture, then the Scripture, being the product of God, must also be true. This is why the Psalmist affirms, “All your words are true” (Ps. 119:160a).

Inerrancy demands the account does not teach error or contradiction. In the statements of Scripture, whatever is written is in accord with things as they are.
source

------------------------------------------

And just as Jesus was human but did not sin, even so the Bible is a human book but does not err.
source

------------------------------------------

Finally, there is the inerrancy of Scripture. Inerrancy is a natural outflow of infallibility in the traditional, orthodox sense. Since the authors could not err when writing Scripture, the bible contains no affirmations of anything that is contrary to fact.
source
​

So, from this we could conclude that the Bible is the word of god, all of which came directly from god or was at least inspired by him, and that these words are infallible if not inerrant.

But what does one do with the errors in the Bible's as pointed out above? Adin certainly couldn't have four hundred fifty and four children and also have six hundred fifty and five. One of the statements has to be false! Of course one could claim that through the years translators screwed up and misinterpreted one of the two figures, or perhaps even both. But what does this do to the claim of the Bible's infallibility and inerrancy? It pretty much does away with it. Considering the Bible is capable of passing along bogus information it's certainly a less than trustworthy book, which prompts one has to ask what other statements might be false; perhaps very crucial statements at that. Moreover, it's quite obvious the Bible isn't inerrant. The contradiction regarding the number of Adin's children being a blatant example.

And this takes us to the claim that the Bible is "the word of god"---typically taken as "His word" to be followed for generations to come. Granting that way back when, when god dictated each word or inspired them, the Bible was truly infallible and inerrant, and could legitimately said to be "His Word." But what can be said of it now? Errors have crept into his word that not only sow doubt as to the veracity of what is said, but have divided Christianity into thousands of individual denominations and sects. And all without a peep of correction from god himself. It's as if he really doesn't care. "Do with My Word what you will, and believe what you want. It isn't important." So, what's to be done with this exposé?

I didn't create this post to denigrate Christian belief, but to put some of it into perspective. I posted the terms above with their explanations to show just how badly Christians seem to be fooling themselves by accepting them without question. Now, if any Christian is comfortable with this, then fine. Go right ahead, but I believe a lot of Christians prefer their religious beliefs to be coherent and rational. If you truly want to spread Christianity then do it with an honest and clean presentation. Not one encumbered with embarrassing contradictions and complications. As I've tried to show, the Bible does have contradictions, which means it isn't infallible and inerrant, and that it may no no longer be the true Word of God, so don't try to sell it as if it is. Be honest with yourself and others. Take the good stuff and leave the rest behind.


.

When a christian says there are no errors in the bible, they mean the bible//chridt/word does not contradict himself. Paul may have dotted his is whike John only left a mark, but these two inaccuracies does nit mean the message contradicts each other -from a christian point if view.

Have you Experienced what its like to be christian? (Meaning personally and imtimately knowing and believe as FACT that the bible is yout your source of truth to the world and no other book is legit?)


If so, if it were divine revelation to lead you to truth, how can you turn from it? How can you see something as false if it is the truth? (If you know two and two is four how can you nownsee it as five)

If you were never christian, explaining the christian experience good anenbad is somewhst hard. But it all wraps aeound hownthe bibkenis interpreted. Are youbreading it from youe point ofnview, pekple's, or christ?

Sorry. Adds. Ill editnit later.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Most people look at the Bible and try to find reasons why it is wrong. Why not try looking for reasons why it is correct.

 

[psychoslice]

Most people look at the Bible and try to find reasons why it is wrong. Why not try looking for reasons why it is correct.

But if you spend all your time trying to find what is right, don't you miss where its wrong ?.

 

[Nous]

When a christian says there are no errors in the bible, they mean the bible//chridt/word does not contradict himself. Paul may have dotted his is whike John only left a mark, but these two inaccuracies does nit mean the message contradicts each other -from a christian point if view.

Geez, that the Bible merely contains a self-consistent “message” isn't at all my impression of what people mean when they claim that the Bible is literally inerrant. But if that were what people mean by the claim of the literal inerrancy of the Bible, then how do they explain all of these passages that literally contradict each other?

Take number 92, for example:

92. Does God change his mind?

Yes. The word of the Lord came to Samuel: I repent that I have made Saul King... (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)

No. God will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent (I Samuel 15:29)

Yes. And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:

i. The Lord was sorry that he made man (Genesis 6:6)

I am sorry that I have made them (Genesis 6:7)

ii. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people (Exodus 32:14).

iii. (Lots of other such references).​

What exactly is the “message” of I Samuel 15:29 that isn't contradicted by I Samuel 15:10-11? And by Genesis 6:6-7?

 

[Skwim]

Most people look at the Bible and try to find reasons why it is wrong. Why not try looking for reasons why it is correct.

Why do you assume I haven't?

Here's a possible answer:

<<It appears to be a contradiction if the two passages were referring to the same count. But do they? Ezra's reckoning was more likely drawn when the returnees just recently arrived from Babylon: "Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city." Ezra 2:1.

Hedging qualifiers don't impress.

Nehemiah's, on other hand, were counted several years after Ezra’s count, when the wall has been rebuilt and the doors have been set up:

"Now it came to pass, when the wall was built, and I had set up the doors, and the porters and the singers and the Levites were appointed... 6 These are the children of the province, that went up out of the captivity..." Nehemiah 7: 1-6

Considering the date from which these two books were written, number of each families would definitely be changed. It is also important to observe that these statistics never claimed completeness, for example, Benjamin and Judah clans were not included in this list.>>

From Cleared-up "Bible Contradictions"

Ezra 2:1-2,15 (ISV)
A List of Those who Returned

2 Here is a list[a] of descendants of the province of Judah who returned from the captivity, from those who had been exiled. Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, had taken them to Babylon. They came back to Jerusalem and Judah, each one to his town, 2 along with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah,[c] Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar,[d] Bigvai, Rehum,[e] and Baanah. Here is the enumeration of:
15 Descendants of Adin: 454​

COMPARE TO

Nehemiah 7:5-6, 20 (ISV)
A List of Those who Returned

I found a register of the original inhabitants in which there was recorded 6 a list of descendants of the province of Judah[c] who returned from captivity, from those who had been exiled by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. They had come back to Jerusalem and to Judah, each one to his town. 7 They were coming with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani,[d] Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth,[e] Bigvai, Nehum,[f] and Baanah. Here is the enumeration of:
20 Adin’s descendants: 655​

Then there's this comparison of both sources.

Nehemiah 7 x,xxx
Ezra 2: [x,xxx]


8 Parosh’s descendants: 2,172 [2,172] SAME

9 Shephatiah’s descendants: 372 [372] SAME

10 Arah’s descendants: 652 [775] LESS

11 Pahath-moab’s descendants; that is, through Jeshua and Joab: 2,818 [2,818] SAME

12 Elam’s descendants: 1,254 [1,254] SAME

13 Zattu’s descendants: 845 [945] LESS

14 Zaccai’s descendants: 760 [760] SAME

15 Binnui’s descendants: 648 [642] MORE

16 Bebai’s descendants: 628 [623] MORE

17 Azgad’s descendants: 2,322 [1,222] MORE

18 Adonikam’s descendants: 667 [666] MORE

19 Bigvai’s descendants: 2,067 [2,056]MORE

20 Adin’s descendants: 655 [454] MORE

21 Ater’s descendants through Hezekiah: 98 [98] SAME

22 Hashum’s descendants: 328 [223] MORE

23 Bezai’s descendants: 324 [323] MORE

24 Hariph’s descendants: 112 [112] SAME

25 Gibeon’s descendants: 95 [95] SAME

26 People from Bethlehem and Netophah: 188 [123] MORE

27 People from Anathoth: 128 [128] SAME

28 People from Beth-azmaveth: 42 [42] SAME

29 People from Kiriath-jearim,[x] Chephirah, and Beeroth: 743 [743] SAME

30 People from Ramah and Geba: 621 [621] SAME

31 People from Michmas: 122 [122] SAME

32 People from Bethel and Ai: 123 [223] LESS

33 People from the other Nebo: 52 [52] SAME

34 The other Elam’s descendants: 1,254 [1,245] MORE

35 Harim’s descendants: 320 [320] SAME

36 Jericho’s descendants: 345 [345] SAME

38 Senaah’s descendants: 3,930 [3,620] MORE

39 The Priests:
Jedaiah’s descendants from the household of Jeshua: 973 [973] SAME

40 Immer’s descendants: 1,052 [1,052] SAME

41 Pashhur’s descendants: 1,247 [1,247] SAME

42 Harim’s descendants: 1,017 [1,017] SAME​

Here's how the numbers stack up: The number of families in Nehemiah 7 with, less, more, or the same number of descendants than Ezra 2:

LESS: ....(3)......9%
MORE: (11)....32%
SAME: (20).... 59%​

Obviously the overwhelming change is NONE AT ALL, with only 32% reflecting the argument your linked source tries to make. The upshot is that while almost 60% of the figures do jibe, the Bible also presents 14 instances of internal errancy. So sorry, but your cherry-picking source, Apologetics Research Ministry, is a bust, and should be ashamed of itself for trying to pass off a purposely fallacious apologetic.

.


.


.

 

[Skwim]

Most people look at the Bible and try to find reasons why it is wrong.

Nah, most people who look at the Bible are Christians and have no desire find anything wrong with it. Some will even go out of their way to preserve its integrity, and at almost any cost. And I have never tried to "find reasons why it is wrong," but rather have come across persuasive reasons not to believe it's right. Big difference.

Why not try looking for reasons why it is correct.

It's just not my approach to issues---purposely letting bias lead me. I let issues present themselves and then weigh their pros and cons.


.

 

[Rise]

Although various explanations may be suitable, I have no problem with accounting for scribal errors as a source of minor details like that.

Because scribal errors might get a date or number off, but they won't change the fundamental message of the Bible - which is too numerous and repetitious, weaved into the very fabric of every book, for any random errors to change that.

You would need to find more meaningful examples than that if you wanted to claim the Bible's revelation of God, His relationship to us, the accounts of Jesus, or prophecy, were in fundamental error. You would probably not even be able to come up with examples of meaningful historical error, let alone prove theological error.

The position I take on the Bible is that it is an accurate history of God's dealings with man, an accurate vision of who God is, an accurate guide to lead you to God, and an accurate warning or promise of what is to come on the earth in the future. Even if a scribe miscopied an otherwise irrelevant number in a list of families, that doesn't prevent the Bible from being any of those things.

 

[oldbadger]

I want to give you five reasons to affirm the Bible is the Word of God.

First Peter 1:25 says: “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
​

.

I couldn't read all of your post...... stopped short just here.
Then I accessed the source and found your 5 reasons, which I won't copy here either, I'll just enter the chapter/verses:-
(John 10:35, NKJV).
(Matt. 5:18, NIV).
(2 Tim. 3:16, NIV).
Matt. 4:4, NIV).
(2 Pet. 1:21, NIV).

I don't know what your interest is, but mine is centred upon 'Christian additions and fidlings'.
This is a fine example, where authors are making claims about a compilation of books, hundreds of years before mankind decided what could be included in the compilation.

I'm surprised that Jesus didn't say something about it, only the real Cjhristian Prophets, like Paul, Peter, etc....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Geez, that the Bible merely contains a self-consistent “message” isn't at all my impression of what people mean when they claim that the Bible is literally inerrant. But if that were what people mean by the claim of the literal inerrancy of the Bible, then how do they explain all of these passages that literally contradict each other?

Take number 92, for example:

92. Does God change his mind?

Yes. The word of the Lord came to Samuel: I repent that I have made Saul King... (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)

No. God will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent (I Samuel 15:29)

Yes. And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:

i. The Lord was sorry that he made man (Genesis 6:6)

I am sorry that I have made them (Genesis 6:7)

ii. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people (Exodus 32:14).

iii. (Lots of other such references).​

What exactly is the “message” of I Samuel 15:29 that isn't contradicted by I Samuel 15:10-11? And by Genesis 6:6-7?

I know there are contradicons in the bihle.

Where are contradictions in christ himself?

Many christians know there are technical contradictions and say there are. For example, in one place it says god dosnt change his mind. Then when hebwas with abram, at sadam ans gomorra, he did. The message wasntba contradiction. It showed god' justice on the wicked just as many other OTnpoints out. His changing his mond as wirtten and christian claismndont change the constancy of thenbibles message.

God changes his mind when you quotee "god doesnt repent" to "god repents". He is saying at first, I am not saying sorry for what i nl did and now, i sorry for this. When you say youre sorry, you usuallt didnt mean to do X to begin with until you findnit caused something maybe guiltnto make you want to apologize.

Its not a contradiction: the message means godnhas a change kfnheart.

@Skwim said

35 Harim’s descendants: 320 [320] SAME

36 Jericho’s descendants: 345 [345] SAME

How does this change the message of what christians here? How is thebcontradiction of whst this event actually talksnabout (context?) A contradiction?

You sais

. The Lord was sorry that he made man (Genesis 6:6)

I am sorry that I have made them (Genesis 6:7)

ii. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people (Exodus 32:14).

The message means: he is sorry that he created man; he feels guilty; he changed his mind by accepting his future actiin and decided to do otherwise.

The message shows compassion and change of heart of god. How is his a contradiction according to cristians?

There are contradictions in ye bible. No christian willnsay those words because they feelnit discreditsnthe bible. Yet, they dobadmit biblical errors and translation can be faulted but the Word of christ is not.

The message (from anchristian view) has noncontradictions. The message is the bible/the Word. Most christians arejt referring tonthe bibke asnjesu christnjust the holy words transmitted through inspired parties.

If you showed a christian these verses, they prob say "yes, that is true he repented in X verse and didnt in Y verse. But the aMeaning jever contradicts."

To whomever placesnthe bible, the words, as perfect are using the bible as an idol. I dont know many christians who do that. They put their trust innchrist. Christ is the idol.

 

[omega2xx]

A lot of different claims are made about Biblical scripture: It's the word of god, it's infallible, it's inerrant, its words are the exact words of god, its words are those of its writers.

In light of the fact that the Bible does have errors in it (Ezra 2:15 The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four. Vs. Nehemiah 7:20 The children of Adin, six hundred fifty and five.) I took a look into the nature of the claims made for it:

(All emphases mine)​

I've presented the following claims to show that they are, in fact, current beliefs. I don't expect all Christians to agree with all of them.

CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS THE "WORD OF GOD"

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

There are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One is the historicity of the Bible.

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of its human authors.

A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible.
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I want to give you five reasons to affirm the Bible is the Word of God.

First Peter 1:25 says: “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
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Yes, God has spoken, and He has not stuttered. The God of truth has given us the Word of Truth, and it does not contain any untruth in it. The Bible is the unerring Word of God.
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CLAIMS THAT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE CAME FROM GOD

When people speak of the Bible as inspired, they are referring to the fact that God divinely influenced the human authors of the Scriptures in such a way that what they wrote was the very Word of God. In the context of the Scriptures, the word “inspiration” simply means “God-breathed.” Inspiration means the Bible truly is the Word of God and makes the Bible unique among all other books.

While there are different views as to the extent to which the Bible is inspired, there can be no doubt that the Bible itself claims that every word in every part of the Bible comes from God
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CLAIMS THAT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE DID NOT COME FROM GOD

. . .most Christians conclude that God provided the precise thought to the human author, and he then wrote it down in terms of his own vocabulary, culture, education, and writing style. So we have here no wooden, single-colored document, but a many-faceted and dynamic book.

. . .many Christians believe that inspiration should be described as thought-for-thought rather than word-for-word. The human writers provide God’s message in terms of their own personalities and historical circumstances, and yet they transmit the message fully and exactly as God desired.
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INFALLIBLE Vs INERRANT, an explanation

There are two theological terms that are often used to explain the nature of the Bible - inerrancy and infallibility. They are used to point out how the Bible is different from all other books that have ever been written.

The Word Infallible Means Trustworthy

When referring to Scripture, the term infallible is usually used to mean reliable and trustworthy. It refers to something that is without any type of defect whatsoever. Those who trust its infallible teachings will never be lead astray.

Inerrancy Means There Are No Errors Whatsoever

Inerrancy contends that the Bible does not have any errors of fact or any statements that contradict.
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CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS INFALLIBLE

A second important characteristic of Scripture is its infallibility.
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We also believe that there is sufficient evidence that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. The Scriptures themselves testify, “All Scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). If they contain error, then one must call it God-inspired error.
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May all who read this adopt Jesus” attitude and become subject both to Him as Living Word (living Torah) and to the Bible as the infallible, written Word of God.
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CLAIMS THAT THE BIBLE IS INERRANT

A Definition of Inerrancy
The word inerrancy means “freedom from error or untruths.” Synonyms inlcude “certainty, assuredness, objective certainty, infallibility.”​

It is important to bear in mind that belief in inerrancy is in keeping with the character of God. If God is true and He is (Rom. 3:4), and if God breathed out the Scripture, then the Scripture, being the product of God, must also be true. This is why the Psalmist affirms, “All your words are true” (Ps. 119:160a).

Inerrancy demands the account does not teach error or contradiction. In the statements of Scripture, whatever is written is in accord with things as they are.
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And just as Jesus was human but did not sin, even so the Bible is a human book but does not err.
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Finally, there is the inerrancy of Scripture. Inerrancy is a natural outflow of infallibility in the traditional, orthodox sense. Since the authors could not err when writing Scripture, the bible contains no affirmations of anything that is contrary to fact.
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So, from this we could conclude that the Bible is the word of god, all of which came directly from god or was at least inspired by him, and that these words are infallible if not inerrant.

But what does one do with the errors in the Bible's as pointed out above? Adin certainly couldn't have four hundred fifty and four children and also have six hundred fifty and five. One of the statements has to be false! Of course one could claim that through the years translators screwed up and misinterpreted one of the two figures, or perhaps even both. But what does this do to the claim of the Bible's infallibility and inerrancy? It pretty much does away with it. Considering the Bible is capable of passing along bogus information it's certainly a less than trustworthy book, which prompts one has to ask what other statements might be false; perhaps very crucial statements at that. Moreover, it's quite obvious the Bible isn't inerrant. The contradiction regarding the number of Adin's children being a blatant example.

And this takes us to the claim that the Bible is "the word of god"---typically taken as "His word" to be followed for generations to come. Granting that way back when, when god dictated each word or inspired them, the Bible was truly infallible and inerrant, and could legitimately said to be "His Word." But what can be said of it now? Errors have crept into his word that not only sow doubt as to the veracity of what is said, but have divided Christianity into thousands of individual denominations and sects. And all without a peep of correction from god himself. It's as if he really doesn't care. "Do with My Word what you will, and believe what you want. It isn't important." So, what's to be done with this exposé?

I didn't create this post to denigrate Christian belief, but to put some of it into perspective. I posted the terms above with their explanations to show just how badly Christians seem to be fooling themselves by accepting them without question. Now, if any Christian is comfortable with this, then fine. Go right ahead, but I believe a lot of Christians prefer their religious beliefs to be coherent and rational. If you truly want to spread Christianity then do it with an honest and clean presentation. Not one encumbered with embarrassing contradictions and complications. As I've tried to show, the Bible does have contradictions, which means it isn't infallible and inerrant, and that it may no no longer be the true Word of God, so don't try to sell it as if it is. Be honest with yourself and others. Take the good stuff and leave the rest behind.


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You need to be a little more careful in your homework, if it is yours and not some atheist website.

There are several differences in the passages you referenced. That is because they are taken at different times. In Ezra Cyrus is king. In Nehemiah Artaxerxes is king. There is 58 years between the first time Zerubbabel went to Jerusalem and the second time he went. It would seem less likely to be true if all of the numbers remained the same.

You can't say we are foolish unless you understand them and according to I Cor 2:14, you can't. "Since you can't, you are the foolish one. I am not saying this to denigrate you, just to make you look before you leap.

 

[savagewind]

I couldn't read all of your post...... stopped short just here.
Then I accessed the source and found your 5 reasons, which I won't copy here either, I'll just enter the chapter/verses:-
(John 10:35, NKJV).
(Matt. 5:18, NIV).
(2 Tim. 3:16, NIV).
Matt. 4:4, NIV).
(2 Pet. 1:21, NIV).

I don't know what your interest is, but mine is centred upon 'Christian additions and fidlings'.
This is a fine example, where authors are making claims about a compilation of books, hundreds of years before mankind decided what could be included in the compilation.

I'm surprised that Jesus didn't say something about it, only the real Cjhristian Prophets, like Paul, Peter, etc....

I think maybe Jesus did say something about it. It is written that he has said for us to be careful we are not misled. Could it have actually been written that we not mislead? Changing meaning would cause the reader to be misled. Telling lies about what God is saying was warned about, but was changed to mean something different and of course it was changed seeing that the possessors of it wanted people to trust them. And why not?

 

[Thief]

A lot of different claims are made about Biblical scripture:

I didn't create this post to denigrate Christian belief, but to put some of it into perspective. I posted the terms above with their explanations to show just how badly Christians seem to be fooling themselves by accepting them without question. Now, if any Christian is comfortable with this, then fine. Go right ahead, but I believe a lot of Christians prefer their religious beliefs to be coherent and rational. If you truly want to spread Christianity then do it with an honest and clean presentation. Not one encumbered with embarrassing contradictions and complications. As I've tried to show, the Bible does have contradictions, which means it isn't infallible and inerrant, and that it may no no longer be the true Word of God, so don't try to sell it as if it is. Be honest with yourself and others. Take the good stuff and leave the rest behind.


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so this thread isn't really about whether or not the scripture is correct and /or infallible

it's about believers....fooling themselves

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Most people look at the Bible and try to find reasons why it is wrong. Why not try looking for reasons why it is correct.

Because a lot of things in the bible is wrong.
Rape, murder, genocide, ritual human sacrifice, sorcery, slavery, is all in the bible. Christians say that the bible are god's words so be must allow all that to happen.
Exposing the Holy Bible | followersoflucifer

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Of course someone who follows Lucifer is not going to follow the Bible.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Of course someone who follows Lucifer is not going to follow the Bible.

So you are ok with a man raping a woman and the woman will have the marry her rapist?
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT) “If a man is caught in the act of raping a woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorcee her.”

 

[Skwim]

so this thread isn't really about whether or not the scripture is correct and /or infallible

Of course it is.

it's about believers....fooling themselves

Don't confuse the aim with the substance.


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[Luciferi Baphomet]

Nah, most people who look at the Bible are Christians and have no desire find anything wrong with it. Some will even go out of their way to preserve its integrity, and at almost any cost.

Because most believe that the bible is god's words.