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Biblical Faiths: Which is more dangerous?
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Yes, to pray and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance is very important, for, we as Christians have the 'mind of Christ' available, and the Holy Spirit who will guide us into all truth. Thy word is truth, God's word, the Bible, and with honest and sincere effort, with much studying and researching, we can know the truths of the Bible. I Believe certain truths, and so I regularly challenge myself on these doctrines and try to find verses that would question them. Then I research to see if they actually do, and what they really mean. It has really helped me to understand God's Word on a much deeper level. Examining all sides of an issue, pro and con, without bias, even playing the 'devil's advocate' against my own beliefs, to try to disprove myself. In doing this through many years, I feel I have discovered not 'my truth', but more and more of 'His Truth', and this has greatly deepened my faith and love for God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Katzpur,
God does want us to understand His words, but as the Bible says; we must search for truth, as for silver or gold, which you must put in effort to find, Proverbs 2:1-9.
God had recorded in His word, The Holy Bible, all information needed by His loyal ones, and God condemned the making of other books, that say anything different than The Bible.
Consider, meditate on these words of The Almighty God. Jehovah says that He will protect His words from all generations, so we know that the Bible is true, Psalms 12:6,7, Isaiah 40:8, John 17:17, 1Peter 1:25. The Bible says that ALL Scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for settings straight, that the man of God would be COMPLETELY furnished for EVERY good work, 2Timothy 3:16,17. No other Sacred book is acceptable, Matthew 6:8.
God put His feelings very clear at Galatians 1:6-9. The Gospel is not from man, but was given to men, especially Paul through a revelation from Jesus Christ, 1Thessalonians 2:13. Any other supposed Sacred Scripture, would cause division, which is not to be in the Christian Congregation, 1Corinthians 1:10. Partaking of any other supposed Sacred Scripture seems to be partaking of the table of Demons, 1Corinthians 10:18-22.
No other Scripture is needed or acceptable to God.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
God didn't "record" anything. People did. Sometimes they did a good job; sometimes they didn't. Some of what they recorded was lost. Some of what they recorded was not included in the Bible. Some of what they recorded was included in early versions of the Bible, but was later omitted. Some of what was added to more recent versions of the Bible was not included in the earliest Bibles. Some of what they recorded was transcribed incorrectly. Some of what they recorded was translated incorrectly. When two different individuals both recorded the same event, they didn't always get all of the details the same. People recorded God's word as they understood and interpreted it. You failed to take any of these things into account. There is not one Bible in existence today that was signed, sealed and delivered by God.
All scripture is inspired by God. It's you, not God, who has defined "scripture" as "the Bible." It's you, not God, who is limiting scripture to one collection of documents, compiled, transcribed and translated by human beings and bound as a single volume. Fortunately, God is not responsible for your ignorance.
Sorry you think I'm partaking of the table of demons.
Talk about insulting. All of the scriptures I use testify of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior of the World. Doesn't sound the slightest bit demonic to me.Your words, not God's. He can choose to speak to anyone He wants, at any time and at any place He wants. He has not restricted himself to speaking to a few men in ancient Israel, and has never even remotely implied He has.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
No. You need to work on your comprehension skills. Or maybe it's not a matter of comprehension skills at all. Maybe you just like to put words in other people's mouths. I never suggested that every word in the Bible be taken literally.
Regarding the OP and it’s question of literal vs metaphor and implications for finding meaning in ancient documents :
While I do not know how, as imperfect beings, we can eliminate all error in interpretation of either written or personal revelation from God. I think God makes allowances for such weaknesses and doesn't expect that we will understand everything.
Even the apostle Peter initially doesn’t know what to make of his vision of the sheet with animals of Acts 10:9-16 and it takes some correlation with external events for him to make sense of what the vision (which was a metaphor) meant and it’s implication in practice. I think we are all left to doing our best and being patient with each other and having humility and some healthy self skepticism that we could possibly be without error in our own interpretative models.
I like some of the theoretic points that Joeboonda pointed out in his post (#17) Joeboonda, speaking of a method of interpretation, said : “ Each word should be interpreted in the light of its normal, ordinary usage that was accepted in the times in which it was written,
Each sentence should be interpreted according to the rules of grammar and syntax normally accepted when the document was written,
Each passage should also be interpreted in the light of its historical and cultural environment. “
While I very much agree with these principles, it is also true that most Christians are not historically educated enough to know ancient languages and ancient cultures enough to approach Scriptures this way. They do not, for the most part, live and breath in the ancient historical milieu. Thus, they are still left to create and then adopt personal interpretations and models dependent upon whatever personal meanings they can form from their personal exposure to the texts.
As we mature, we learn, and as we learn, we discover new meanings and new applications and, this changes our personal religious models in important ways. I think one important principle is to realize that our personal models have errors in them and seek to find the errors and eliminate them, rather than to hold on to the early and immature religious models we make and then resist making changes to them (which includes resisting the correction of errors of interpretation).
Individuals and committees who create bibles for the rest of us to read are also, in the same situation. They have their own religious models, which affects their product (the version of the bible they are creating). I think for the most part, they are trying to do their best, but still, the product will be affected by their own interpretations.
For example, Luther felt the second of the 10 commandments was directed only to the Jews (a "judisches sachenspiegel" or local law meant for the Jews) and thus omitted this commandment from his first version of his very, very popular translation of the Old testament. This is why the 10 commandments were different between Catholics and Protestants in europe for a time. The point is, that there are consequences to how we interpret the biblical text, but I do not know how one can avoid errors completely and, importantly, if this life is a tutoring, then there may be something important to learn, even by making the errors we make.
Clear
δρσιδρακω
While I do not know how, as imperfect beings, we can eliminate all error in interpretation of either written or personal revelation from God. I think God makes allowances for such weaknesses and doesn't expect that we will understand everything.
Even the apostle Peter initially doesn’t know what to make of his vision of the sheet with animals of Acts 10:9-16 and it takes some correlation with external events for him to make sense of what the vision (which was a metaphor) meant and it’s implication in practice. I think we are all left to doing our best and being patient with each other and having humility and some healthy self skepticism that we could possibly be without error in our own interpretative models.
I like some of the theoretic points that Joeboonda pointed out in his post (#17) Joeboonda, speaking of a method of interpretation, said : “ Each word should be interpreted in the light of its normal, ordinary usage that was accepted in the times in which it was written,
Each sentence should be interpreted according to the rules of grammar and syntax normally accepted when the document was written,
Each passage should also be interpreted in the light of its historical and cultural environment. “
While I very much agree with these principles, it is also true that most Christians are not historically educated enough to know ancient languages and ancient cultures enough to approach Scriptures this way. They do not, for the most part, live and breath in the ancient historical milieu. Thus, they are still left to create and then adopt personal interpretations and models dependent upon whatever personal meanings they can form from their personal exposure to the texts.
As we mature, we learn, and as we learn, we discover new meanings and new applications and, this changes our personal religious models in important ways. I think one important principle is to realize that our personal models have errors in them and seek to find the errors and eliminate them, rather than to hold on to the early and immature religious models we make and then resist making changes to them (which includes resisting the correction of errors of interpretation).
Individuals and committees who create bibles for the rest of us to read are also, in the same situation. They have their own religious models, which affects their product (the version of the bible they are creating). I think for the most part, they are trying to do their best, but still, the product will be affected by their own interpretations.
For example, Luther felt the second of the 10 commandments was directed only to the Jews (a "judisches sachenspiegel" or local law meant for the Jews) and thus omitted this commandment from his first version of his very, very popular translation of the Old testament. This is why the 10 commandments were different between Catholics and Protestants in europe for a time. The point is, that there are consequences to how we interpret the biblical text, but I do not know how one can avoid errors completely and, importantly, if this life is a tutoring, then there may be something important to learn, even by making the errors we make.
Clear
δρσιδρακω
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God didn't "record" anything. People did. Sometimes they did a good job; sometimes they didn't. Some of what they recorded was lost. Some of what they recorded was not included in the Bible. Some of what they recorded was included in early versions of the Bible, but was later omitted. Some of what was added to more recent versions of the Bible was not included in the earliest Bibles. Some of what they recorded was transcribed incorrectly. Some of what they recorded was translated incorrectly. When two different individuals both recorded the same event, they didn't always get all of the details the same. People recorded God's word as they understood and interpreted it. You failed to take any of these things into account. There is not one Bible in existence today that was signed, sealed and delivered by God.
All scripture is inspired by God. It's you, not God, who has defined "scripture" as "the Bible." It's you, not God, who is limiting scripture to one collection of documents, compiled, transcribed and translated by human beings and bound as a single volume. Fortunately, God is not responsible for your ignorance.
Sorry you think I'm partaking of the table of demons.
Your words, not God's. He can choose to speak to anyone He wants, at any time and at any place He wants. He has not restricted himself to speaking to a few men in ancient Israel, and has never even remotely implied He has.
Don't you know, Katz. You don't believe in the "real" Jesus Christ. Lol
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yeah, so I've been told.
God didn't "record" anything. People did. Sometimes they did a good job; sometimes they didn't. Some of what they recorded was lost. Some of what they recorded was not included in the Bible. Some of what they recorded was included in early versions of the Bible, but was later omitted. Some of what was added to more recent versions of the Bible was not included in the earliest Bibles. Some of what they recorded was transcribed incorrectly. Some of what they recorded was translated incorrectly. When two different individuals both recorded the same event, they didn't always get all of the details the same. People recorded God's word as they understood and interpreted it. You failed to take any of these things into account. There is not one Bible in existence today that was signed, sealed and delivered by God.
All scripture is inspired by God. It's you, not God, who has defined "scripture" as "the Bible." It's you, not God, who is limiting scripture to one collection of documents, compiled, transcribed and translated by human beings and bound as a single volume. Fortunately, God is not responsible for your ignorance.
Sorry you think I'm partaking of the table of demons.
Your words, not God's. He can choose to speak to anyone He wants, at any time and at any place He wants. He has not restricted himself to speaking to a few men in ancient Israel, and has never even remotely implied He has.
katzpur,
Now I understand what you are saying!!! You reserve the right to believe what you want to believe, and any part of the Bible, or any other book or part of a book that disagrees with you is wrong.
Thousands of Bible scholars, from all over the world, have found the Bible to be accurate, and that the last reason for thinking that the Bible is not from The Almighty God, has been thoroughly disproved.
When you rely on your own knowledge you confront, what is called Egocentric Predicament, because we all know so very little, it is futile to try to produce something from your own reasoning that is on the level of God's word. To try will lead only to Doping Out, and is always wrong, when compared with the Holy Scriptures.
Right now your knowledge of the Bible, can only be described as superficial at best, just a nodding acquaintance, maybe Terra Incognita. You need to ask questions, not make assertions, which only prove your little knowledge.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
If you're going to take the time to respond to my post, you ought to at least make your comments relevant to what I said. Maybe that's too much to ask.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
The Bible is literal. Very few /groups, actually do read it literally.
John 18:36 /Jesus's Kingdom
Matthew 28:18 /authority of Jesus
//literal verses
Some of the Bible, isn't ''literal'', although the meaning is literal. So, you read the non-literal verses to figure out the 'literal' meaning
When people say 'literal', usually they don't mean 'literal'. Usually they mean, 'my church, so forth, interpretation, and we consider it literal'; or something to that affect.
hope that answered /part of your question
John 18:36 /Jesus's Kingdom
Matthew 28:18 /authority of Jesus
//literal verses
Some of the Bible, isn't ''literal'', although the meaning is literal. So, you read the non-literal verses to figure out the 'literal' meaning
When people say 'literal', usually they don't mean 'literal'. Usually they mean, 'my church, so forth, interpretation, and we consider it literal'; or something to that affect.
hope that answered /part of your question
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Hi Katzpur,
I agree that 12jtartars post was irrelevant. I am not sure he understood your point (which he quoted) and offered no data or historical relevance. 12jtartars point that biblical scholars have "found the bible to be accurate” is no more true than it’s opposing counter point that biblical scholars "found the bible to have errors”. Simple minded claims and religious soundbites are unable, by themselves to reconcile these two, conflicting yet true claims. Similarly, irrelevant posts don’t help reconcile the conflict between what is allegorical and what is literal.
As an example of more insightful and helpful thinking, I like syncretics’ concept that there is some literal meaning which underlies all biblical text and the difficulty is determining how to create accurate literal meaning from allegory that has multiple potential meanings. I also like syncretics point that meaning is, at it's base level of interpretation, personal. That is, a text has a personal meaning to one person or group while it may have different meaning to another group.
Clear
δρακακδρω
I agree that 12jtartars post was irrelevant. I am not sure he understood your point (which he quoted) and offered no data or historical relevance. 12jtartars point that biblical scholars have "found the bible to be accurate” is no more true than it’s opposing counter point that biblical scholars "found the bible to have errors”. Simple minded claims and religious soundbites are unable, by themselves to reconcile these two, conflicting yet true claims. Similarly, irrelevant posts don’t help reconcile the conflict between what is allegorical and what is literal.
As an example of more insightful and helpful thinking, I like syncretics’ concept that there is some literal meaning which underlies all biblical text and the difficulty is determining how to create accurate literal meaning from allegory that has multiple potential meanings. I also like syncretics point that meaning is, at it's base level of interpretation, personal. That is, a text has a personal meaning to one person or group while it may have different meaning to another group.
Clear
δρακακδρω
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BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I agree wholeheartedly, Katzpur. That's why I'm surprised when people claiming literal adherence say, for an example that is painful to me as a Jewish believer, that they and their church are the 144,000 of Revelation, rather than the plainest reading of the text--144,000 Jewish persons.
Thanks for your post.
Quiddity,
The truth in the Bible is not meant to be easy to find, as the Bible says, search for it as for silver, and hidben treasures, and you will find the knowledge of God, Proverbs 2:1-9.
Some people re so quick to find fault with the way the Bible is written, even though we still use many of the sayings used in the Holy Scriptures.
If anyone wants to understand the Bible better, they should compare several Bibles, or read Bible dictionaries or Bible encyclopedias. Some Bibles also use notes along with the Scriptures, and some use brackets to add explanations within the texts. If a person really wants to understand the Bible, he will find a way!!!
The truth in the Bible is not meant to be easy to find, as the Bible says, search for it as for silver, and hidben treasures, and you will find the knowledge of God, Proverbs 2:1-9.
Some people re so quick to find fault with the way the Bible is written, even though we still use many of the sayings used in the Holy Scriptures.
If anyone wants to understand the Bible better, they should compare several Bibles, or read Bible dictionaries or Bible encyclopedias. Some Bibles also use notes along with the Scriptures, and some use brackets to add explanations within the texts. If a person really wants to understand the Bible, he will find a way!!!
allright,
I don't understand your logic. At lest in veryone has a chance at salvation. Remember the Bible tells us that there is ONE name under heaven by which we MUST get saved, Acts 4:12. The Bible also says that if you do not have the son, you do not have the Father either, 1John 2:23, John 20:30,31.
Jesus said that many would try to get in, but would not be able, Luke 13:23, Matthew 7:13,14, 21-23.
Why do you think that Jesus said these things??? There are several reasons!! They are probably nominal Christians, which means in name only, they do not do the things that Jesus commanded. First, anyone who wants to live MUST worship in truth, John 4:23,24, 2Thessalonians 2:8-13. It is not the one who hears the word, but the one who obeys that will be saved,Romans 2:13, James 1:22-25, 1John 3:18.
There is one other reason for people not to gain salvation, they accept the word of God, but selfishly do not try to help others learn the truth in order tobe saved, 2Timothy 2-5. The last order that Jesus gave his disciples, was to go throughout the world teaching all the things that he had commanded, Matthew 28:19,20. Agape!!!