Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[ppp]

The Bible doesn't even know some of the authors of the Bible! and you want to attribute that to God??

Knowing the author(s) of a book would not help their case. Nor Islam's.

 

[MyM]

Knowing the author(s) of a book would not help their case. Nor Islam's.

Doesn't have to help Islam. Islam is complete They have that problem but they don't want to admit it

 

[nPeace]

The person making the claim has the burden of proof. It's not up to me to disprove a claim made without evidence.

What she said is most certainly not demonstrated.

prophecy is evidence of diety because no man can know the future. Humans are limited in their foreknowledge.

It would be impossible for you know what will befall a small town in the middle of nowhere in 100 years from now.

As far as I can see... and I can read, no doubt.
You need to demonstrate that it is possible for man to predict that, but so far, man has demonstrated that he cannot, and we know man's limitations.
Therefore, it has been demonstrated. Or... do you believe in miracles. I can accept a 'yes'.

Bree is making the statement that humans cannot predict the future, by stating what exactly will happen, and exactly when.

She is not talking about telling persons that the sun will rise tomorrow morning x AM, and set at x PM. Or that the moon will eclipse the sun in the month of x, on day x.
Or that if one eats rat poison they will get sick and even die.

That's not what she is talking about.
Not stating that we will have electric cars some time in the future, because we are working on it.
That's not what Bree is talking about.
So if that's what you have in mind, Bye. You can talk to Bree.

However, we know, because it is the case.
5 Futurist Predictions in the World of Science
If there's one thing we can predict about the future, it's that at least some of the amazing scientific and technological advances envisioned by today's futurists won't actually become a reality, at least not in the expected time frame. After all, in 1932, renowned 20th century British political leader Winston Churchill, who had access to his country's top researchers, predicted that within 50 years, an engine would generate 600 horsepower for hours from a fuel tank the size of a fountain pen, Iceland would be relocated to the tropics, robots would have human-like consciousness, and people would feast on synthetic chicken flesh grown in laboratories. In fairness, Churchill did get a few things right; he predicted both cellphones and technology the equivalent of Skype through which anyone could "connect up to any room similarly equipped and hear and take part in the conversation as well as if he put his head in through the window" [source: Churchill].

Today's seers may have learned something from Churchill's folly, because they're a bit more careful in substantiating and qualifying their predictions of future wonders. For example, theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, author of the 2011 book "Physics of the Future: How Science Will Shape Human Destiny and Our Daily Lives by the Year 2100," bases his forecast on scientific discoveries -- such as quantum physics and the nature of DNA -- that already have been made, and on prototypes of inventions that already exist in laboratories [source: Kaku]. And when the World Future Society, a group of scientific and economic forecasters from 80 countries, compiled a recent report envisioning life in 2100, it was careful to characterize its work as a "first light" view of the horizon that might play out very differently, depending upon a host of variables -- including whether humans make wise use of technological advances or foolishly use them in ways that are destructive [source: The Futurist].

Awaiting your response.

 

[nPeace]

More like you are growing exhausted trying to
deny reality.

Nice avatar.

 

[SkepticThinker]

As far as I can see... and I can read, no doubt.
You need to demonstrate that it is possible for man to predict that, but so far, man has demonstrated that he cannot, and we know man's limitations.
Therefore, it has been demonstrated. Or... do you believe in miracles. I can accept a 'yes'.

Bree is making the statement that humans cannot predict the future, by stating what exactly will happen, and exactly when.

She is not talking about telling persons that the sun will rise tomorrow morning x AM, and set at x PM. Or that the moon will eclipse the sun in the month of x, on day x.
Or that if one eats rat poison they will get sick and even die.

That's not what she is talking about.
Not stating that we will have electric cars some time in the future, because we are working on it.
That's not what Bree is talking about.
So if that's what you have in mind, Bye. You can talk to Bree.

However, we know, because it is the case.
5 Futurist Predictions in the World of Science
If there's one thing we can predict about the future, it's that at least some of the amazing scientific and technological advances envisioned by today's futurists won't actually become a reality, at least not in the expected time frame. After all, in 1932, renowned 20th century British political leader Winston Churchill, who had access to his country's top researchers, predicted that within 50 years, an engine would generate 600 horsepower for hours from a fuel tank the size of a fountain pen, Iceland would be relocated to the tropics, robots would have human-like consciousness, and people would feast on synthetic chicken flesh grown in laboratories. In fairness, Churchill did get a few things right; he predicted both cellphones and technology the equivalent of Skype through which anyone could "connect up to any room similarly equipped and hear and take part in the conversation as well as if he put his head in through the window" [source: Churchill].

Today's seers may have learned something from Churchill's folly, because they're a bit more careful in substantiating and qualifying their predictions of future wonders. For example, theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, author of the 2011 book "Physics of the Future: How Science Will Shape Human Destiny and Our Daily Lives by the Year 2100," bases his forecast on scientific discoveries -- such as quantum physics and the nature of DNA -- that already have been made, and on prototypes of inventions that already exist in laboratories [source: Kaku]. And when the World Future Society, a group of scientific and economic forecasters from 80 countries, compiled a recent report envisioning life in 2100, it was careful to characterize its work as a "first light" view of the horizon that might play out very differently, depending upon a host of variables -- including whether humans make wise use of technological advances or foolishly use them in ways that are destructive [source: The Futurist].

Awaiting your response.

I don't see how this refutes what I said. Sorry.

It has not been demonstrated that humans alone cannot predict the future. It hasn't been demonstrated that if humans can be shown to predict the future, that it must come from some God(s).
And it definitely has not been demonstrated that any God exists (or which God), never mind that said God inspired humans to predict the future, or whatever.

 

[Audie]

I don't see how this refutes what I said. Sorry.

It has not been demonstrated that humans alone cannot predict the future. It hasn't been demonstrated that if humans can be shown to predict the future, that it must come from some God(s).
And it definitely has not been demonstrated that any God exists (or which God), never mind that said God inspired humans to predict the future, or whatever.

People are called believers because they are
into believing things.
Often the most utterly outlandish things.

IF somehow there is a god, is prophecy, and there is a purpose to it, what is the purpose?

 

[nPeace]

I don't see how this refutes what I said. Sorry.

It has not been demonstrated that humans alone cannot predict the future. It hasn't been demonstrated that if humans can be shown to predict the future, that it must come from some God(s).
And it definitely has not been demonstrated that any God exists (or which God), never mind that said God inspired humans to predict the future, or whatever.

You do like to make strawman, don't you?
The point - If a source makes a exact prophetic utterance, and that prophecy comes true exactly. then since we know that it is impossible for a human, then that is evidence the source of the prediction is of divine nature - a deity.
That is the point.

 

[ppp]

slam is complete

[shrug] Phrenology is complete. The miasmic theory of disease is complete. Completeness is trivial.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You do like to make strawman, don't you?

Where's the straw man?

The point - If a source makes a exact prophetic utterance, and that prophecy comes true exactly. then since we know that it is impossible for a human, then that is evidence the source of the prediction is of divine nature - a deity.
That is the point.

First of all, the Bible doesn't make an "exact prophetic utterance" as I pointed out earlier.
Secondly, we don't know that it's impossible for a human to make a prediction.
We don't know that God(s) is/are required for people to make predictions. We don't even know if there are God(s) in the first place to attribute such things to.

 

[Audie]

You do like to make strawman, don't you?
The point - If a source makes a exact prophetic utterance, and that prophecy comes true exactly. then since we know that it is impossible for a human, then that is evidence the source of the prediction is of divine nature - a deity.
That is the point.

That is so shallow.
Columbus wowed the natives by oredicting an eclipse.
I can predict the next one.
Exactly, for anywhere, any year.

The claim of " exact" prophecy in the bible is
laughable.
You cant really mean it.

 

[firedragon]

I have sympathy with Jews because they are holding fast to a covenant that they believe is everlasting. The Spirit of the law is, I would agree, eternal, but the heart of man is not pure, and, as such, man is incapable of fulfilling the law in righteousness. It takes a sinless mediator to complete the law. For Christians, that man (who is also the Lord of heaven) is the only one capable of fulfilling the law in righteousness. Christians live by his Spirit of righteousness, not their own!

In presenting this argument to Muslims, I am saying that Muhammad cannot have been sinless, because the Spirit of God was not in him by 'measure' [John 3:31-34]. There has only ever been one sinless mediator, and that was Jesus Christ. This is what scripture teaches and is not solely my personal opinion. [1 Timothy 2:5]

Muhammed is irrelevant. I am not a jew or a christian, but in order to understand the language of the Tanakh, one has to consult a Jewish scholar or at least a scholar in the Jewish languages.

Just making some random statement that Jews are just stuck in some covenant while misrepresenting their text is preposterous. Thats in my opinion.

And prior to quoting 1st Timothy as "authoritative" maybe you should establish why it should be authoritative. YoU just quote a random verse as if its Gods word.

 

[nPeace]

Where's the straw man?


First of all, the Bible doesn't make an "exact prophetic utterance" as I pointed out earlier.

Which Bible did you read?
I have no desire to quote the entire bible to people who don't know anything about it, nor care to know.
However, so that such a blatant false claim does not go unaddressed...
(Daniel 9:2) . . .Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years.

(Jeremiah 25:11) And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’

(Jeremiah 29:10) “For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’

(Ezra 1:1) In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah would be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his kingdom, which he also put in writing, saying:

(Daniel 9:24-27) 24 “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”

The OP mentioned other verses.

(Daniel 2:44, 45) 44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; 45 forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy.”

Maybe I should ask... Do you understand what prophecy is?

Secondly, we don't know that it's impossible for a human to make a prediction.

Lol
Look at your statement, and tell me where in this thread anyone made such a ridiculous argument.

We don't know that God(s) is/are required for people to make predictions. We don't even know if there are God(s) in the first place to attribute such things to.

Strawman.
Do you know what a strawman is? There it is. Lol

 

[SkepticThinker]

Which Bible did you read?

I have no desire to quote the entire bible to people who don't know anything about it, nor care to know.

However, so that such a blatant false claim does not go unaddressed...

I've actually read the entire Bible back when I was a Christian.

(Daniel 9:2) . . .Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years.

(Jeremiah 25:11) And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’

(Jeremiah 29:10) “For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’

(Ezra 1:1) In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah would be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his kingdom, which he also put in writing, saying:

(Daniel 9:24-27) 24 “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”


The OP mentioned other verses.


(Daniel 2:44, 45) 44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; 45 forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy.”


Maybe I should ask... Do you understand what prophecy is?

I'm sorry, are you submitting that this is an "exact prophetic utterance?"
How so?

“Seventy weeks of years?”
Huh? That’s supposed to be an “exact prophetic utterance?”

Look at how you have to twist the words into a pretzel and do all kinds of mental and mathematical gymnastics to make that make any sort of sense.

Lol

Look at your statement, and tell me where in this thread anyone made such a ridiculous argument.

Strawman.

The claim was that “prophecy is evidence of diety because no man can know the future. Humans are limited in their foreknowledge.”


This line you have quoted was one part of my response to that claim.

Do you know what a strawman is? There it is. Lol

Do you?

 

[CG Didymus]

fulfilled prophecy IS objective evidence.

The Bible offers us many passages of scripture that point to future times

If the prophecy is not worded so that it can later be interpreted to be correct whatever happens

That's the problem. Christians say the "Comforter" was the prediction of the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost. Baha'is, and maybe Muslims also, use it as a prediction of their prophets.

But also, if the NT was written after the events happened, how can we be sure that the writers didn't make the story fit a prophesy. Like Matthew and the virgin birth, Herod having the little boys killed, out of Egypt he will be called his son and he will be called a Nazarene.

But then... were some of those even prophecies? The cherry-picking problem of finding one verse that says something that can be made to fit cannot be claimed to be a prophecy.

Then, going back to the virgin birth, there's the dual-fulfillment problem. What do Christians do with the context of Isaiah chapter 7 after verse 14? Was there a boy born that became the sign for King Ahaz? If so, was he born of a virgin? If there was no boy in Isaiah's time and the sign was a prophesy about Jesus, then how did Jesus fulfill the rest of the things predicted about this boy?

And because Islam and the Baha'i Faith use the Bible to "prove", give "objective" evidence of "fulfilled" prophecy, then anybody can make the prophecies in the Bible show that their prophet is the promised one. So, unless Christians believe Islam and the Baha'i Faith are true, then this shows that prophecies can be interpreted in a way to make whatever happens fit.

 

[nPeace]

That is so shallow.
Columbus wowed the natives by oredicting an eclipse.
I can predict the next one.
Exactly, for anywhere, any year.

The claim of " exact" prophecy in the bible is
laughable.
You cant really mean it.

Do you know who will be born on earth 10 years... even 1 year from now? Can you name that person, and say what they will do?
No.? Then your argument is weak, and crumby... like bread that has gone bad for a month.

The Bible gave precice predictions - prohecies about the future.
A one time event that happens annually, monthly, or every x years, is not a prophecy.

Prophecies are not obvious things like "The weather tomorrow will be fair."

"Oops. Didn't see that coming."
"The sun will "rise" tomorrow."
That's like me saying, 'I predict my watch will be 1 hour later, 1 hour from now.' Then going, 'Whoopie! I was right!'

 

[Audie]

Which Bible did you read?
I have no desire to quote the entire bible to people who don't know anything about it, nor care to know.
However, so that such a blatant false claim does not go unaddressed...
(Daniel 9:2) . . .Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years.

(Jeremiah 25:11) And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’

(Jeremiah 29:10) “For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’

(Ezra 1:1) In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah would be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his kingdom, which he also put in writing, saying:

(Daniel 9:24-27) 24 “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”

The OP mentioned other verses.

(Daniel 2:44, 45) 44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; 45 forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy.”

Maybe I should ask... Do you understand what prophecy is?


Lol
Look at your statement, and tell me where in this thread anyone made such a ridiculous argument.


Strawman.
Do you know what a strawman is? There it is. Lol

The more the color changes and the
more the bold font is underlined, the weaker
the presentation gets. Keep it up.

Oh, i almost missed this, the colours so dazzled me-

"A one time event that happens annually"

Thats too precious!

And prophecy of the flood? You couldnt have picked a better
example ofvfailed prophecy to auto- discredit your claims.

 

[Audie]

Do you know who will be born on earth 10 years... even 1 year from now? Can you name that person, and say what they will do?
No.? Then your argument is weak, and crumby... like bread that has gone bad for a month.

The Bible gave precice predictions - prohecies about the future.
A one time event that happens annually, monthly, or every x years, is not a prophecy.

Prophecies are not obvious things like "The weather tomorrow will be fair."

"Oops. Didn't see that coming."
"The sun will "rise" tomorrow."
That's like me saying, 'I predict my watch will be 1 hour later, 1 hour from now.' Then going, 'Whoopie! I was right!'

Occasionally precise, never accurate

 

[Redemptionsong]

So? Like I said, the Bible is just the claim.

In reality, faith doesn't get us anywhere.

The Bible is a complete outlook, governed by the opening verse, informing us that God is the Creator.

Faith gets us to where God wants us to go. Without faith in God, one is left building faith in things that pass away.
Matthew 6:19-21. 'Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.'

Faith is trust, and without faith all our relationships would fail.

From the Christian perspective, Jesus is the face of God. To trust in Jesus is to trust in God. We do not know what he looks like, we cannot see him physically, but we can hear his voice. It's a still small voice that appeals to the heart. Not everyone who reads the scriptures can hear his voice speak to their heart, but many can!

 

[Audie]

The more the color changes and the
more the bold font is underlined, the weaker
the presentation gets. Keep it up.

The Bible is a complete outlook, governed by the opening verse, informing us that God is the Creator.

Faith gets us to where God wants us to go. Without faith in God, one is left building faith in things that pass away.
Matthew 6:19-21. 'Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.'

Faith is trust, and without faith all our relationships would fail.

From the Christian perspective, Jesus is the face of God. To trust in Jesus is to trust in God. We do not know what he looks like, we cannot see him physically, but we can hear his voice. It's a still small voice that appeals to the heart. Not everyone who reads the scriptures can hear his voice speak to their heart, but many can!

I am supposed to trust things i
know are untrue?

 

[Redemptionsong]

What if you're talking to somebody who considers the Christian concept of 'Saviour' ('salvation'/'saved') as an entirely unnecessary construct (drawn from a work of literature)?

The Bible is very clear about sin, and the impact that sin has on a human life.

Open your heart and mind to these words:
'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' [1 John 1:8,9]

When our thoughts, words, and actions are laid bare, and we are compared with Jesus, where do we stand?