Believing

[savagewind]

It is now several years for me that I have been searching for reason in believing. I imagine that what I have found is that everyone I have met that is a believer in God believe only the things they believe should be true about faith, righteousness and life. For instance it has become obvious to me that many people believe something about God because it has been told to them by man who has said it is the right way to believe. At the same time they know the scripture that says "do not put your trust in nobles nor in man". They say they do not do that because that is wrong. They do do it but they know it is wrong so they believe they don't it.

Do you see it too, and can you think of any other way it demonstrates itself as an actual phenomenon?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is now several years for me that I have been searching for reason in believing. I imagine that what I have found is that everyone I have met that is a believer in God believe only the things they believe should be true about faith, righteousness and life. For instance it has become obvious to me that many people believe something about God because it has been told to them by man who has said it is the right way to believe. At the same time they know the scripture that says "do not put your trust in nobles nor in man". They say they do not do that because that is wrong. They do do it but they know it is wrong so they believe they don't it.

Do you see it too, and can you think of any other way it demonstrates itself as an actual phenomenon?

I think there are couple of things to consider.
One is that, many of the Founders of Faiths, did not claim to be just a "man".
They claimed to be an "image of God", a Manifestation of God.
Second is that, the idea in believing in God, comes from these Prophets.
so, when you quote "do not put your trust in nobles nor in man". this statement, in my view, pre-assumes that, the Prophets are completely the same nature of any other human. But that may not be the case. Because, there are solid arguments that, human, has also a non-materialistic nature, which some call it spirit. Thus, although prophets appear physically with the same body as everyone else, but it could be that their spiritual nature is above regular men. That is to say, they would be the embodiment of the holy spirit.

 

[Freedomelf]

Savage, you make a good point, and this is why there is so much myth attached to all faiths. Faiths have evolved over time because people have added to their rich tapestry of concepts and ideas. Some of those people were inspired, perhaps they were prophets, perhaps not. Others were simply adding what they want-hope-wish to be true, and if more and more people believed those things, they became dogma. Other things, that people did not wish to be true (but might have indeed been true) have fallen by the wayside and are no longer part of the faith. For examples of this, look up a guy named Aramais (sp?) and see how the leaders of the early Christian church anethemized him at the Nicene Council for his beliefs, even though those beliefs were part of the original Christian dogma.

In other words, all religions have a great deal of mythology infused into them. That's why it's so hard to believe everything about any religion. The majority of the "facts" are almost certainly colored by individual interpretation. The only way for people to truly find god is to seek their own, unique path, the one that brings them peace. In order to do that, thinking people study several religions, not just the one that they were indoctrinated/brainwashed into believing as children.

I hope you find what you seek. Blessings.

 

[savagewind]

I think there are couple of things to consider.
One is that, many of the Founders of Faiths, did not claim to be just a "man".
They claimed to be an "image of God", a Manifestation of God.
Second is that, the idea in believing in God, comes from these Prophets.
so, when you quote "do not put your trust in nobles nor in man". this statement, in my view, pre-assumes that, the Prophets are completely the same nature of any other human. But that may not be the case. Because, there are solid arguments that, human, has also a non-materialistic nature, which some call it spirit. Thus, although prophets appear physically with the same body as everyone else, but it could be that their spiritual nature is above regular men. That is to say, they would be the embodiment of the holy spirit.

OK. I am from the Christian faith. I know of people who put their faith in men who claim they are the same nature as 'Jesus' but at the same time they claim to be the same as everyone else. "One flock" as in John 10:16. So they teach we are one flock with one shepherd, 'Jesus Christ' being the Shepherd but they presume the role of the shepherd. I think you are referring to Mohammed. I don't think I am going to study Islam.

 

[Jainarayan]

It is now several years for me that I have been searching for reason in believing. I imagine that what I have found is that everyone I have met that is a believer in God believe only the things they believe should be true about faith, righteousness and life. For instance it has become obvious to me that many people believe something about God because it has been told to them by man who has said it is the right way to believe. At the same time they know the scripture that says "do not put your trust in nobles nor in man". They say they do not do that because that is wrong. They do do it but they know it is wrong so they believe they don't it.

Do you see it too, and can you think of any other way it demonstrates itself as an actual phenomenon?

I'm not sure if I'm answering the question, but I can't know what is in the mind of another person. I can't know if they believe not to put their trust in men v. actually doing it. I don't believe in the God I believe in or the way I believe because someone told me I should. I believe it because something pervades me in that it is right. I believe it is God communicating with me. This is something one has to feel; no one can tell it to you.

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” The Buddha

What I can further say is that even Sri Krishna says to be wary of those who tell you what to do when they themselves are misguided (Kesava Kasmiri's commentary on Bhagavad Gita 2.42):

Why is it that the scholars who have studied the Vedas so fastidiously fail to possess the resolute intelligence? It is because they could not comprehend the essence of the Vedic scriptures and subsequently they missed understanding the true purport of the Vedas. This Lord Krishna emphasises ... meaning the ignorant who are not knowledgeable are attracted to flowery descriptions in the Vedas even as a beautiful flowery creeper may be attractive although it is poisonous. But these living entities are ignorant and not actual scholars of Vedanta because they are only devoted to those parts of the Vedas which help them secure material opulence in this life and the next. ... Their conception of devotion is being devoted to pursuing heavenly delights and they even foolishly argue that there is nothing more beyond the rewards of heavenly pleasures to attain.

By this ignorance, these people will lead you astray. I don't know if any of that answers the questions, but it might be something to chew on.

 

[savagewind]

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” The Buddha

Perfect! That is the same point I am trying to make with my post. Thank you.

And which makes me think of another way believing can lead astray. I know I can say this because I was once a part of the body of believers that views things thus;

To be accrediting attention to any other god is to be making The God jealous. So even though what The Buddha and what Sri Krishna says is true and beneficial for teaching and learning The Body has to reject it or be in contempt of their god because it comes from what they believe is a false god. To be siding with what is not true will cause their extinction. But it IS true. They even know it is true because the bible has similar things to say.

 

[Jainarayan]

There's another verse from the Bhagavad Gita: Whosoever worship Me through whatsoever path, I verily accept and bless them in that way. Men everywhere follow My path. The Rig Veda has the verse Ékam sat vipra bahudā vadanti which means "The truth is one, the wise know it by many names". Some people claim this is too universalist; I don't think so. Rather, I think it's the truth. Rejecting both of those verses based on "false gods" or "false religions" simply underscores that people who make those claims are mainly following what they're told. This, of course, is only my opinion.

 

[savagewind]

There's another verse from the Bhagavad Gita: Whosoever worship Me through whatsoever path, I verily accept and bless them in that way. Men everywhere follow My path. The Rig Veda has the verse Ékam sat vipra bahudā vadanti which means "The truth is one, the wise know it by many names". Some people claim this is too universalist; I don't think so. Rather, I think it's the truth. Rejecting both of those verses based on "false gods" or "false religions" simply underscores that people who make those claims are mainly following what they're told. This, of course, is only my opinion.

Yes! It is my life view that everything that is talked about is opinion. There exists TRUTH though and I believe it can be found but can not be shared as found because everyone has a different point of view.

 

[Jainarayan]

Obiwan Kenobi told Luke Skywalker that the things we think of as true are true only from a certain p.o.v. OK, so it was fiction, and I don't get out much but I think it's true...

Ready... ?


Are you really ready... ?


You sure... ?


It's true from my p.o.v.

 

[savagewind]

LOL. No frubal? OMG. I have found Truth to be multidimensional. A diamond is a diamond. It is real (true). I won't wear one because I see toil and blood. Some people see love. Some people see profit. I worry I might lose it if I had one. So I don't.

 

[Awoon]

It is now several years for me that I have been searching for reason in believing. I imagine that what I have found is that everyone I have met that is a believer in God believe only the things they believe should be true about faith, righteousness and life. For instance it has become obvious to me that many people believe something about God because it has been told to them by man who has said it is the right way to believe. At the same time they know the scripture that says "do not put your trust in nobles nor in man". They say they do not do that because that is wrong. They do do it but they know it is wrong so they believe they don't it.

Do you see it too, and can you think of any other way it demonstrates itself as an actual phenomenon?

I dont think the so-called believers in God really believe in a God, but they believe in the concepts given to them by ministers about the God of the Bible or their religious books and the particuler religion they affiliate with. I for one did.

Over thirty yrs ago I started asking questions to the leaders about bible writings, the culture of the people written about and how come none today repeated what Jesus and his disciples did. When they couldnt or wouldnt answer I left. The parting words from most were they had the only truth or the "devil" got to me.

Today I read the postings here, the people that do some talking of God and religion that I meet, the writings of Rocco Errico and at Freeratio.com. I also compare the religious peoples beliefs and their words with the way life goes on Earth today.

Their beliefs to me are just what they are, mental gymnastics, ideologies and psychologies to push away everyday struggles and joys for some future utopia by condemming and threatening people to go to their heavens with their hells and future punishments of their own beliefs in the names of their Gods.

No God has ever threatened or saved me for anything I've ever done. Only Humans have.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

OK. I am from the Christian faith. I know of people who put their faith in men who claim they are the same nature as 'Jesus' but at the same time they claim to be the same as everyone else.

Ok, but do you believe a Faith should be based on imitation?
What I mean is this:
Suppose a person is born in a culture and family who does not have any background in any religion. That would be a nutural position with regards to what religion to choose.
Why should that person choose Christianity over other Faiths?
Is it because of the Miracles of Jesus? Is it based on what is written in Bible?
There are other faiths that claim for Miracles. There other faiths that have Holy Books, with excellent spiritual and moral teachings.

"One flock" as in John 10:16. So they teach we are one flock with one shepherd, 'Jesus Christ' being the Shepherd but they presume the role of the shepherd.

John 10:16:
"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

I would interpret it this way:
The followers of Jesus, "Christians", were a flock. John 10:16 is talking about another flock. That is the followers of a New Faith, from return of Christ. Not Christians. I understand this as "Baha'is"
Jesus said, He returns with a New Name, and writes His new name on them.

I think you are referring to Mohammed. I don't think I am going to study Islam.

I was speaking generally.

 

[savagewind]

Ok, but do you believe a Faith should be based on imitation?

This is a good question. My first impulsive answer is NO! But then I remember that

1 Corinthians 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. 1 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. Philippians 3:17 Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. Philippians 4:9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. 1 Thessalonians 1:6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 2 Thessalonians 3:9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

But what I am saying is some people have come to believe that it is possible to see truth just as someone else sees it. They even believe when it is told them "see it my way in order to be saved". The line should be drawn before that imo. The difference exists in how a person perceives (or sees) truth and how a person follows another in the search for truth. Isn't the contrast between "I am seeing" and "I am learning". Learning is good. Seeing what is not there is not good.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is a good question. My first impulsive answer is NO! But then I remember that

1 Corinthians 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. 1 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. Philippians 3:17 Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. Philippians 4:9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. 1 Thessalonians 1:6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 2 Thessalonians 3:9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

I think the overall message of Bible is to encourage newness, rather than imitation of old ways.
“No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment” Mat. 9:16
“…we also should walk in newness of life.” Rom. 6:4
“And that ye put on the new man…” Ephes. 4:24
“…And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge” Colo. 3:10

Yes, there are verses that those Men, talked about being an example of the new Faith, which was Christianity at that time. They encouraged others to imitate them as an example of followers of that new faith. But essentially I don't think Bible teaches imitation of older generation. Rather it encourages new ways.

 

[savagewind]

Revelation 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Hebrews 12:27 The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken--that is, created things--so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

It is how Christ is the Son and the image of God. And so He is the One to listen to. Not men who say they are speaking FOR HIM. "Every eye will see" but if it is customary to believe the man who tells you what to see you will say "what should I see?" instead of looking at it to see it.

Why do they not see the difference? Christ is THE WAY. Men come to say they KNOW the way. Christ did not say he knew the way. He said he IS the way.

 

[Awoon]

It is how Christ is the Son and the image of God. And so He is the One to listen to. Not men who say they are speaking FOR HIM. "Every eye will see" but if it is customary to believe the man who tells you what to see you will say "what should I see?" instead of looking at it to see it.

Why do they not see the difference? Christ is THE WAY. Men come to say they KNOW the way. Christ did not say he knew the way. He said he IS the way.

Christ is also the one that gives light (knowledge) to every man that is born. The Bible says it !!!

So no man should bother with any religious BELIEF or writings of any book.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why do they not see the difference? Christ is THE WAY. Men come to say they KNOW the way. Christ did not say he knew the way. He said he IS the way.

Well, the way I understand what Jesus was saying, is to see the overall Message of Jesus.
Yes, He did say "I am the way". But I think the way to understand what He meant by that, is to see His overall sayings within the context of Bible.

Jesus had a mission from the Father, to bring a message from Him to His people, as bible says:

"I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it." John 12:19

Now, as you pointed out, Jesus was an image of God. It was really God who was saying "I am the way". But this expression came through Jesus, as the image of God who was reflected in the Mirror of Jesus. So, Jesus acted as a pure Mirror. God's words was reflected in Him.
Other Prophets essentially said similar sayings.

 

[Awoon]

Well, the way I understand what Jesus was saying, is to see the overall Message of Jesus.
Yes, He did say "I am the way". But I think the way to understand what He meant by that, is to see His overall sayings within the context of Bible.

Jesus had a mission from the Father, to bring a message from Him to His people, as bible says:

"I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it." John 12:19

Now, as you pointed out, Jesus was an image of God. It was really God who was saying "I am the way". But this expression came through Jesus, as the image of God who was reflected in the Mirror of Jesus. So, Jesus acted as a pure Mirror. God's words was reflected in Him.
Other Prophets essentially said similar sayings.

When man was created in the image of God, what makes anyone think that Jesus was any differant then any man? Where in the Bible does any one say that Man is not the image of the Bible God still?

 

[savagewind]

Well, the way I understand what Jesus was saying, is to see the overall Message of Jesus.
Yes, He did say "I am the way". But I think the way to understand what He meant by that, is to see His overall sayings within the context of Bible.

Jesus had a mission from the Father, to bring a message from Him to His people, as bible says:

"I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it." John 12:19

Now, as you pointed out, Jesus was an image of God. It was really God who was saying "I am the way". But this expression came through Jesus, as the image of God who was reflected in the Mirror of Jesus. So, Jesus acted as a pure Mirror. God's words was reflected in Him.
Other Prophets essentially said similar sayings.

I cannot agree that there is more than one way to go. Two different people cannot be "the way". But I agree with the scripture you quote John 12:19

God cannot be The Way. The reason being is "the way" is the spiritual journey TO God.

James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you.
Zechariah 1:3 Therefore tell them: Thus says Yahweh of Armies: 'Return to me,' says Yahweh of Armies, 'and I will return to you,' says Yahweh of Armies
Malachi 3:7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty. "But you ask, 'How are we to return?

These scriptures indicate it is a going toward God, not with God. The Way is Christ who is ONE way. Are you really advocating more than one leader?

 

[savagewind]

When man was created in the image of God, what makes anyone think that Jesus was any differant then any man? Where in the Bible does any one say that Man is not the image of the Bible God still?

Jesus was different in that he was sent to Earth to save Earth. Man is still in God's image. You are right about that. Some people honor that feature of man, some dishonor it.