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Being "right" is NOT a reason for God to favour people.

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
That would seem fair. Why then do you suppose so many Christian organizations send missionaries to these tribes to tell them about Jesus? If they just left them alone, they'd go to heaven. By talking to them, aren't they just giving them an opportunity to spend eternity in hell by rejecting Jesus?
I said that I do not believe they are nessecarily damned... I don't believe they are nessecarily saved either... though I tend towards the eastern Christian view of the afterlife anyways, in which we all end up in God's love and it is how we react to it that determines our experience of bliss or torment...

Finally. Ok, now what is it?
There are a multitude of experiences that back up my belief... such that the question of the existance God is not a question anymore for me...

What is a Christian doing that a Hindu or Muslim is not, that is causing them to be right? What are they doing better?
I have no idea what is going on in any individual's head or heart, Christian or otherwise, except my own and thus I cannot tell you ;)

What? This would not be fair. If the test is testing someone's ability to get maths questions correct and one person guesses and scores 100%, whereas the other actually tries and scores 75%, the person who guessed does not deserve anything better than the other person. If anything, the person who scored less deserves a reward.
If it is a test of writing down the correct answer to math questions then the person who writes down more correct answers fared better, regardless of effort/intelligence/study/guessing...

And your going to have to explain to me how it's not the same as Christianity. The maths test is testing your ability to get maths questions correct and the Christian God is testing your ability to accept the true religion, isn't he?
The person guessing hardly truly believes his answers are correct before the results come back to him...

Again you will have to explain.
They have an equal opportunity, it is not weighted towards one person or the other, thus it is fair.

Completely undeserved but some get it and some do not? Why? And how is this fair?
It is fair because of the equality of opportunity to receive it...

They have not "found truth" in the way that it is a good thing. Their beleifs just happened to be true.
In the same way my knowledge of history "just happens" to be true...(mostly ;) )

A little bit of a problem? Your going to be punished for eternity because you merely happened to be wrong about your beleifs and you would only have a little problem with it?
I certainly wouldn't be pleased... I'd probably be scared as ****... but I'd realize that it was on me... my fault, my consequences...

Yes you would have something else to blame - luck. It was completely out of your control that Islam was the true religion. Yes it was in your control to believe it, but completely out of your control for it to actually be true.
Not at all, I reject luck in it at all... Reality is out of my control, but my beliefs are not... when my beliefs do not reflect reality it is all on me...
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
I believe little babies, the unborn, and people who live in a place where the word of God has not reached them will undoubtedly go to heaven.

Well that is not fair is it? Why does God play favourites before we were even born? All those people who have not heard of Christianity are going to automatically go to heaven, whereas the rest of us are given a chance to go to hell?

Holdem, this will be the last time I try to explain this to you, so please pay extra attention.

Explain what to me? What don't I understand about any of your posts?
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
There are a multitude of experiences that back up my belief... such that the question of the existance God is not a question anymore for me...
This is not about how sure you are that you are right or how you came to have your beliefs. There are people in other religions who are more sure than you are that they are right. I asked what you (and Christians) are doing better that is causing you to be right. There has to be something or it would be unfair for God to favour you. There has to be something otherwise it's equivalent to a guess.

I have no idea what is going on in any individual's head or heart, Christian or otherwise, except my own and thus I cannot tell you
So basically, you believe that God will favour Christians but you don't know why?

If it is a test of writing down the correct answer to math questions then the person who writes down more correct answers fared better, regardless of effort/intelligence/study/guessing...
Of course, that would simply be because of the rules. This is not what I was talking about, I was talking about if the test was to test your ability to get maths question correct.

The person guessing hardly truly believes his answers are correct before the results come back to him...
Wrong. You can guess and then truly believe that you are right. If God does not take into account how we came to be right or wrong, then our beleifs are just guesses, because there was nothing meaningful behind them. If God is going to favour people for having belief x over people who held belief y, there has to be something better, in Gods eyes, about having belief x. There has to be, otherwise favouring one over the other for no reason would be unfair. So why will God like people for believing Christianity over people who believe in Hinduism?

They have an equal opportunity, it is not weighted towards one person or the other, thus it is fair.
No it is not. Because the opportunity is equal and because the coin is not weighted does not make it fair. It is would only be fair if they both got head or both got tails. Now if two equal people flick that coin, and one gets head but ones gets tails, one gets rewarded and one gets punished, that would not be fair. It would not be fair because two equal people, who like you said, both deserve the same thing, would be getting to different outcomes, it would not be fair at all. Unfair = unjust.

It is fair because of the equality of opportunity to receive it...
See above reply. Your saying that God rewards/punishes based on nothing but luck, that would be unfair and therefore unjust. For it not to be just luck there has to be something that they are doing differently, that they are doing better.

In the same way my knowledge of history "just happens" to be true...(mostly )
No, religious beleifs are based on faith. Faith = hope and trust. No matter how much you hope and trust that you are right, it does not increase your chances of actually being right. If I have a belief that is based on faith, then whether or not it is true is left ONLY to chance. If Christianity is true, you got lucky. If Islam is true, the Muslims got lucky. Unless of course, you can tell me why, in Gods eyes, a belief in Christianity is better/more worthy of a gift than a belief in Islam. I think it's fine if you just say "I don't know", but do you see why "because Christianity is true" is not a valid reason for God to reward Christians?

I certainly wouldn't be pleased... I'd probably be scared as ****... but I'd realize that it was on me... my fault, my consequences...
No it was not your fault. Like I said there is something to blame - luck. Whether or not Christianity or Islam is true, is completely out of your control. Sure, it is in your control you believe one of them, but which one actually is true, is out of your control. For it to be your fault you would of had to done something wrong, or worse than the Muslims did. Just like for you to get a gift from God for believing in religion y, you have to have done something good that caused you to believe religion y, it cannot just be a guess. But if God does not take into account how we came to have our beliefs, if he just a had a big filter which only let through people who believed in religion y, then it is left to luck and it is unfair.

Not at all, I reject luck in it at all... Reality is out of my control, but my beliefs are not... when my beliefs do not reflect reality it is all on me...
Umm just because you are in control of your beliefs, does not mean that whether or not they are true is not left to chance, it is. You can say you reject it, but I dot know how. Whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is determined only by luck. If God is going to give out gifts to those who follow Christianity, and give out punishments to those who don't, there better be something that the Christians are doing better, otherwise God is unjust.
 
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Heneni

Miss Independent
This is just another spin on the 'only christians go to heaven thread'.

Now the thing is...if somebody is a real funamentalist biggoted person, then just remember that they are going to be in heaven just as much as the nice guy or the murderer or the child molester, cause...god doesnt favour people, only religions do....Hmmm....

The whole reason for this kind of argument, is because people want to compare their moral muscles. When one group says that another has been excluded, then the other group says, no everybody is included, making them look like mother teresa. But they dont realise that by their inclusion they included the very people that they dont like. So its a question asked by people who like favouritism in the first place.

Suzie:

'I dont like you....you show favouritism':slap: (Showing favouritism)

Pete:

'I'm not like that..i dont show favouritsm' (*though, i wouldnt want to be in heaven with you ...kind of thing, i just want to appear better than you*) (showing favourtism)

Heneni
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
Please tell me who ever gave you the idea that anything in life was ever fair?

I did not say that life was fair, and I know that life is not at all fair. This is God we are talking about, not life - and God would be fair. So please, answer: Well that is not fair is it? Why does God play favourites before we were even born? All those people who have not heard of Christianity are going to automatically go to heaven, whereas the rest of us are given a chance to go to hell?
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
I did not say that life was fair, and I know that life is not at all fair. This is God we are talking about, not life - and God would be fair. So please, answer: Well that is not fair is it? Why does God play favourites before we were even born? All those people who have not heard of Christianity are going to automatically go to heaven, whereas the rest of us are given a chance to go to hell?
What makes you think that God is fair?
What makes you think that God has to follow YOUR idea of fair?
What is your basis for comparison?
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
What makes you think that God is fair?

Personally, it just makes more sense to me to believe that if God exists, he would be fair. Of course Christians believe that God is fair, so there is no disagreement there.

What makes you think that God has to follow YOUR idea of fair?

I don't think that. I suppose God would work in ways that I do not find completely fair, but they are fair, because God says they are. But there are some things which are unfair by definition - like if God played favourites for no reason, that would be unfair.

What is your basis for comparison?

Common sense more than anything I guess. Like I said, I don't believe that there is a disagreement between me and Christians on what is fair and what is not, so why bring this up in this thread? Interesting, but completely irrelevant for this thread.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Common sense more than anything I guess. Like I said, I don't believe that there is a disagreement between me and Christians on what is fair and what is not, so why bring this up in this thread? Interesting, but completely irrelevant for this thread.
Never mind then.
Since the Christians didn't bring it up, by all means, ignore it as irrelevant.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
This is not about how sure you are that you are right or how you came to have your beliefs. There are people in other religions who are more sure than you are that they are right. I asked what you (and Christians) are doing better that is causing you to be right. There has to be something or it would be unfair for God to favour you. There has to be something otherwise it's equivalent to a guess.
I explained why it was not a guess...

So basically, you believe that God will favour Christians but you don't know why?
No, Christians will avail themselves of God's favor that is open to everyone...

I was talking about if the test was to test your ability to get maths question correct.
If it was a question of knowing the answers to math questions(and we have the ability to ascertain whether someone knows or guesses) then yes, the person who worked hard and got less answers right would have fared better than the guesser who got more right, but did not actually know the answers...

Wrong. You can guess and then truly believe that you are right.
Hmm... I'll have to think on this...

No it is not. Because the opportunity is equal and because the coin is not weighted does not make it fair.
I disagree... fair means without bias... I do not think fairness nessecitates that there not be a dichotomy... For instance, if a District Attorney offers all members of a gang of theives immunity for testifying, but only the first one gets to take it, that is fair...

See above reply. Your saying that God rewards/punishes based on nothing but luck, that would be unfair and therefore unjust.
No I did not, I merely said that chance is fair...

No, religious beleifs are based on faith. Faith = hope and trust.
To a major extent mine is not :shrug:

No it was not your fault. Like I said there is something to blame - luck.
No I can't... you can't blame luck for being wrong...
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
I explained why it was not a guess...
My point is that if God does not take into account how we came to be wrong or right, then it is the same as rewarding and punishing based on guesses. Whatever it is that is making your beliefs not be guesses, Muslims are doing that exact same thing, so you are equal to them.

No, Christians will avail themselves of God's favor that is open to everyone..
Another way of saying "they picked the right one". What is better about accepting Christianity over accepting Islam? Why would God reward one and not the other?

If it was a question of knowing the answers to math questions(and we have the ability to ascertain whether someone knows or guesses) then yes, the person who worked hard and got less answers right would have fared better than the guesser who got more right, but did not actually know the answers...
Right. Now what about those who try harder to find the true religion than some Christians? Such people obviously exist. And you say that God will favour the person who tried less just because they were right? That would be unfair.

Hmm... I'll have to think on this...
Whenever you initially choose a religion, it is a guess, then you work from that guess. Just think about the vast majority of Christians. They have not even looked into the other religions as much as they have looked into Christianity, so they are guessing. Christianity might grow on them and they may become more sure that it is true as time goes by, but initially, it was a complete guess.

I disagree... fair means without bias... I do not think fairness nessecitates that there not be a dichotomy... For instance, if a District Attorney offers all members of a gang of theives immunity for testifying, but only the first one gets to take it, that is fair...
What do you mean by only the first one gets to take it? Do you mean that the first person who owns up gets it? If so, that would be fair. But if there were 5 gang members and we picked names out of a hat to determine who gets to testify, of course that would not be fair, just like in the coin example. If two people who both deserve the same thing, get a different thing, then that is unfair. Just like a Christian and a non-Christian, like you said, deserve the same thing. It would be unfair to give one a gift and not the other, unless of course the one who got the gift, did something better/more reward worthy.


No I did not, I merely said that chance is fair...
Making the chance for everyone to become Christian equal, does not make it fair to reward Christians and punish non-Christians. There has to be something better about believing Christianity, if there is nothing then it is just luck. If I flicked a coin and said if it's heads you get $1,000,000 but if it's tails you will be killed, and I made two people flick that coin, and one got heads but one got tails, it would not be fair. It would not be fair because I would be using luck to determine whether or not someone gets a reward or punishment.

To a major extent mine is not :shrug:
Whatever else they are based on, people believe in different religions for those exact same reasons. Why are your beliefs any better just because yours were true and theirs were false? Completely out of curiosity, what else are your religious beleifs based on, apart from faith? I'm not talking about your belief in God/a higher being, I'm asking about your belief in Christianity.

No I can't... you can't blame luck for being wrong...
Yes you can. If those who were right did nothing better than those who were wrong, then all of the blame is on luck. If I play poker with someone and we are both equal players and I try harder than them to win, but I lose, I blame the fact that I lost on luck.
 

jacobweymouth

Active Member
There are hundreds of religions out there and we have to pick one of them, so it is as God has given us a hat full of religions and we have to pick one.

I'm saying that God didn't put them all there.

It is exactly that. And I know it requires faith, that is the problem. You say that God rewards based on whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true. Newsflash: (I've told you this before) whether or not a belief based on faith is true, is nothing but luck. Why will God reward you over an equally faithful Hindu? "Because I was right" is exactly the same as saying "because I got lucky".

Because the beliefs of Hinduism, Islam, etc. have nothing to do with God. They may be attempts to find God, they may be devils leading people astray, but God revealed Himself to us (creation), and it's up to us to accept it.

I see where you're coming from, though. The thing is it's not saying "I was right". It's like saying, "God is merciful." You're coming at it from the completely wrong direction.
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
Because the beliefs of Hinduism, Islam, etc. have nothing to do with God.

And that is completely out of our control. We do not choose which religion is actually true. This is just another way of saying that God will favour Christians because Christians are right. So why will you be favoured for being right over someone who was wrong? Being right, by itself, is no better than being wrong.

They may be attempts to find God, they may be devils leading people astray, but God revealed Himself to us (creation), and it's up to us to accept it.

Going in circles. There are hundreds of other religions, why will God like people more for believing religion x over religion y? Would you feel that God is being completely fair, if he tells you when you die, that you are going to be punished for not being a Hindu?

I see where you're coming from, though. The thing is it's not saying "I was right". It's like saying, "God is merciful." You're coming at it from the completely wrong direction.

Please explain. It is about being right, otherwise God would not play favourites for being right.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
It would be unfair to give one a gift and not the other, unless of course the one who got the gift, did something better/more reward worthy.
That is the whole point... the gift is there for everyone... no one is favored, no one is denied the gift... all they have to do is open it. God won't force you to...

As for trying harder, you can't say who does or doesn't try this hard or that hard... you, nor I, can point to someone and say, they tried harder to find God than this other person... you can't... therefore your point exists only in the realm of the hypothetical...
 

jacobweymouth

Active Member
And that is completely out of our control. We do not choose which religion is actually true.

No, and neither did God. He laid down the law. All other religions are from the imagianations.

This is just another way of saying that God will favour Christians because Christians are right.

:no:

So why will you be favoured for being right over someone who was wrong? Being right, by itself, is no better than being wrong.

Because I wasn't "right" because I didn't "choose" religions. I got saved, and got religion afterwards.

Going in circles.

Yeah, I know. :D That's why I bowed out of our previous one. I always end up coming back though...

There are hundreds of other religions, why will God like people more for believing religion x over religion y?

God has nothing to do with religion y.

Would you feel that God is being completely fair, if he tells you when you die, that you are going to be punished for not being a Hindu?

I'm sure I'd hate God as much as I expect everyone will be hating God. But the fact remains: God is God, and He is just. That may not be going through my mind at the time, but that's just the way it is. Of course Hinduism is a bad example.

Please explain. It is about being right, otherwise God would not play favourites for being right.

God isn't playing favorites: He's rewarding the faithful. As I said earlier in this post, I got saved, and got religion afterwards. If you want to equate that with playing favorites for being right, I won't stop you. I ain't with ya, though, and neither is this universe's brand of logic.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Because the beliefs of Hinduism, Islam, etc. have nothing to do with God. They may be attempts to find God, they may be devils leading people astray, but God revealed Himself to us (creation), and it's up to us to accept it.
Wow that is a very non progressive opinion to be held on a forum for all religions and for religious Education in general. keeping in mind that Christianity is only one umbrella of beliefs on this forum, and that this forum is also for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc., this is really a sad post to see on the forum, which lacks basic respect to other members of the forum and their background.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Because the beliefs of Hinduism, Islam, etc. have nothing to do with God. They may be attempts to find God, they may be devils leading people astray, but God revealed Himself to us (creation), and it's up to us to accept it.

I fail to see how your religion is any less nonsensical, irrational and unsubstantiated than the next religion. You have zero evidence to elevate your faith above anyone else's.
 
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HoldemDB9

Active Member
That is the whole point... the gift is there for everyone... no one is favored, no one is denied the gift... all they have to do is open it. God won't force you to...

Yes but if there is nothing better behind the choice of accepting Christianity, over accepting any of the other religions, then it would not be fair for the people who chose Christianity to get the gift. If there was nothing they did differently other than "be right" then it is equivalent to a complete guess. What you said here is just the same as the 200 houses example. There are hundreds of religions, all offering gifts, why will someone get rewarded for choosing the right one? The fact that it was the right one, was completely out of their control. Yes they all had an equal chance to accept the right one, yes they all had the same opportunity to get the $1,000,000, but that does not make it fair. It does not makes it fair because sheer luck is going to have a effect on what they end up getting. If sheer luck is used to determine whether or not someone will get a reward, even if the luck is equal, then that is not fair.

This is how it is. There are multiple religions in existence, one of them is true. God is going to reward people for choosing the true one and punish people for choosing the false one, regardless of how they came to make that choice. Now with no difference between the right and wrong religion, with no difference between the people who got it right and the people who got it wrong, it is exactley the same as saying that God rewards based on who got lucky and chose the right one.

As for trying harder, you can't say who does or doesn't try this hard or that hard... you, nor I, can point to someone and say, they tried harder to find God than this other person... you can't... therefore your point exists only in the realm of the hypothetical...

Of course we don't know exactley how hard everyone is trying. But surely you accept that there are non-Christians who are trying, all over the world, who are trying harder to find God/truth, than plenty of Christians.
 
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