Baptism purpose Sign of the covenant.

[Muffled]

Peter says that Baptism is:



Hmm, what does "Appeal to God for a good conscience" mean? Why would you need a good conscience if you're automatically sealed and saved with no works or behavior issues involved?

This is a different salvation. It is salvation from judgement.

Ro 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Shermana]

Ah, now there's different kinds of salvation, never heard that once ever, not once, in my hundreds and hundreds of discussions with Christians. Interesting concept. Got any links that support this or is this completely your own interpretation? What is the difference between salvation from judgment and the other salvation you speak of?

Kind of convenient to separate salvation into 2 different versions when the traditional interpretation is shown to be contradicted by the text.

 

[sincerly]

Ah, now there's different kinds of salvation, never heard that once ever, not once, in my hundreds and hundreds of discussions with Christians. Interesting concept. Got any links that support this or is this completely your own interpretation? What is the difference between salvation from judgment and the other salvation you speak of?

Kind of convenient to separate salvation into 2 different versions when the traditional interpretation is shown to be contradicted by the text.

Shermana, There is only one kind of salvation validated by the Scriptures---that which comes from paying the price for being guilty of SIN---Death. That price is Blood---Either one's own or that of Jesus Christ.
That "traditional interpretation" wasn't compromised/"contradicted" by Baptism. (1Pet.3:21). That "like figure"(baptism) was in the Resurrection of Jesus from death and the tomb.
Jesus remains the only "way, the truth, and the Life"--- which guarantees Salvation as HE said.

 

[Muffled]

Ah, now there's different kinds of salvation, never heard that once ever, not once, in my hundreds and hundreds of discussions with Christians. Interesting concept. Got any links that support this or is this completely your own interpretation? What is the difference between salvation from judgment and the other salvation you speak of?

Kind of convenient to separate salvation into 2 different versions when the traditional interpretation is shown to be contradicted by the text.

It is convenient to view receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior as incorporating both salvations and considering it one salvation. More than likely that would be the conventional view although the salvation from judgement might not be viewed as a salvation. I have never seen an apology for it based on scripture or otherwise but then I haven't had much experience with those who espouse that view.

You have probably heard it in different terms without understanding what it was.

I don't see it as interpretation just a different view. I do know of a few scriptures:

Rom 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Ro 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

In one God finds me righteous even though I have sinned while in the other God keeps me from committing sin. The second is better because the wages of sin is death even if I am found to be righteous. For instance God may find me righteous even though I pound a wall but my fist will still hurt but if He keeps me from pounding the wall I am both righteous and my fist doesn't hurt.

 

[Muffled]

Shermana, There is only one kind of salvation validated by the Scriptures---that which comes from paying the price for being guilty of SIN---Death. That price is Blood---Either one's own or that of Jesus Christ.
That "traditional interpretation" wasn't compromised/"contradicted" by Baptism. (1Pet.3:21). That "like figure"(baptism) was in the Resurrection of Jesus from death and the tomb.
Jesus remains the only "way, the truth, and the Life"--- which guarantees Salvation as HE said.

There actually is a third salvation, from guilt.

Are you saying that Jesus doesn't have the power to keep you from comitting sin or do you think being cleansed by the blood cleanses the consciousness and eliminates the human tendancy to sin?

I would also say that having the Paraclete saves me from being long winded since God tends towards terse verse.

 

[sincerly]

There actually is a third salvation, from guilt.

Muffled, isn't Guilt the result of transgression/disobedience in some way?---i.e., SIN? Isn't that what Jesus, the Redeemer, did---set one free from that Sin debt?

Are you saying that Jesus doesn't have the power to keep you from comitting sin or do you think being cleansed by the blood cleanses the consciousness and eliminates the human tendancy to sin?

Neither GOD the Father, Nor Jesus, or the Holy Spirit prevents one from "commiting Sin" or that would have been the case in the Garden with Adam and Eve; or With all those during Noah's day; Or any that have lived since the Creation. It isn't GOD'S WILL that any should perish, but that all come to Repentance. GOD made mankind with the power of choice---NOT robots. Therefore, it is only as a person chooses in love/rebellion to do that a person will do.-----and the rewards will be appropriate.

Yes, when one chooses to be cleansed by the Blood of Jesus, the conscience/person is freed from the Guilt of SIN, but that act doesn't eliminate one's freedom to return to the practices of the "old man of sin". As Paul stated, there is the need to die daily to self in submission to the WILL of the Father.

I would also say that having the Paraclete saves me from being long winded since God tends towards terse verse.

That is, also, your choice.

GOD can save/deliver/preserve one's life from enemies/dangers/etc., but the salvation of one into HIS Kingdom/earth made new is only accomplished by Jesus Christ and HIS Shed Blood.

 

[Muffled]

Muffled, isn't Guilt the result of transgression/disobedience in some way?---i.e., SIN? Isn't that what Jesus, the Redeemer, did---set one free from that Sin debt?

[/color]

Neither GOD the Father, Nor Jesus, or the Holy Spirit prevents one from "commiting Sin" or that would have been the case in the Garden with Adam and Eve; or With all those during Noah's day; Or any that have lived since the Creation. It isn't GOD'S WILL that any should perish, but that all come to Repentance. GOD made mankind with the power of choice---NOT robots. Therefore, it is only as a person chooses in love/rebellion to do that a person will do.-----and the rewards will be appropriate.

Yes, when one chooses to be cleansed by the Blood of Jesus, the conscience/person is freed from the Guilt of SIN, but that act doesn't eliminate one's freedom to return to the practices of the "old man of sin". As Paul stated, there is the need to die daily to self in submission to the WILL of the Father.



That is, also, your choice.

GOD can save/deliver/preserve one's life from enemies/dangers/etc., but the salvation of one into HIS Kingdom/earth made new is only accomplished by Jesus Christ and HIS Shed Blood.

The single act incorporates both salvations (wrath and guilt). However a person must internalize both for both to have affect.

In my case the Paraclete keeps me from sin and the Father has done that once before I was saved, simply because I asked Him to. Adam and Eve did not ask for salvation from sin and the Paraclete wasn't available to them.

I have a choice. I choose for God to keep me from sin. I asked Him to be Lord. Do you think my Lord's will is for me to sin? God forbid!

It used to be that way. Now I am completely dead.

No, it isn't because it is not I who speak but God who speaks through me.

 

[sincerly]

The single act incorporates both salvations (wrath and guilt). However a person must internalize both for both to have affect.

In my case the Paraclete keeps me from sin and the Father has done that once before I was saved, simply because I asked Him to. Adam and Eve did not ask for salvation from sin and the Paraclete wasn't available to them.

I have a choice. I choose for God to keep me from sin. I asked Him to be Lord. Do you think my Lord's will is for me to sin? God forbid!

It used to be that way. Now I am completely dead.

No, it isn't because it is not I who speak but God who speaks through me.

Muffled, isn't the wrath the result of SIN/Guilt??(Rom.1:18) Wouldn't Repentance for the SIN as GOD has stated/promised/faithful void the "wrath"? (1John 1:9)
Should one "sin again", a confessing and repenting is necessary for Jesus to be our Advocate before the Father again.(1John 2:1)

John goes on the add (1John 3:9), that it isn't necessary to Sin, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
That isn't because GOD will not allow the person to Sin/or will prevent him from doing so, but because the person LOVES GOD and chooses not to Sin.

"Now I am completely dead."
This statement of yours and the others indicates to me that you have fully surrendered your will to be that of the Father in LOVE. Which as Jesus stated, "If ye love me Keep my Commandments(/Decalogue)."

 

[Shermana]

I have a choice. I choose for God to keep me from sin. I asked Him to be Lord. Do you think my Lord's will is for me to sin? God forbid!

What is the definition of sin for you? Do you have a handy list or is it just arbitrary? What do you think of 1 John 3:4? "Sin is lawlessness". What law? What lawlessness?

 

[sojourner]

Shermana, There is only one kind of salvation validated by the Scriptures---that which comes from paying the price for being guilty of SIN---Death. That price is Blood---Either one's own or that of Jesus Christ.
That "traditional interpretation" wasn't compromised/"contradicted" by Baptism. (1Pet.3:21). That "like figure"(baptism) was in the Resurrection of Jesus from death and the tomb.
Jesus remains the only "way, the truth, and the Life"--- which guarantees Salvation as HE said.

Nope. That's not the only kind of salvation validated by the scriptures. It may be the one you believe -- but it's not the only one.

 

[sincerly]

Nope. That's not the only kind of salvation validated by the scriptures. It may be the one you believe -- but it's not the only one.

Inform us of another valid way to be saved from the guilt of SIN----Penalty for which is the second death?

 

[sojourner]

Inform us of another valid way to be saved from the guilt of SIN----Penalty for which is the second death?

We are reconciled through the simple fact of the Incarnation. We cannot become clean enough ourselves to be reconciled to God, so God became dirty -- became human -- for us, thus reconciling us to God's Self.

 

[sincerly]

We are reconciled through the simple fact of the Incarnation. We cannot become clean enough ourselves to be reconciled to God, so God became dirty -- became human -- for us, thus reconciling us to God's Self.

Sojourner, my previous answer included that in this: """Should one "sin again", a confessing and repenting is necessary for Jesus to be our Advocate before the Father again."""(1John 2:1)
Jesus became one's advocate by/through HIS shed Blood/death---Taking our "dirty sins" and giving the sinner HIS "Righteousness.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner, my previous answer included that in this: """Should one "sin again", a confessing and repenting is necessary for Jesus to be our Advocate before the Father again."""(1John 2:1)
Jesus became one's advocate by/through HIS shed Blood/death---Taking our "dirty sins" and giving the sinner HIS "Righteousness.

Or, became the Advocate simply by becoming human. The spilling of blood was unnecessary.

 

[Shermana]

Or, became the Advocate simply by becoming human. The spilling of blood was unnecessary.

Why would you believe Jesus was Messiah if he didn't fulfill Isaiah 53 as the Guilt Offering? How do you interpret Isaiah 53:10?

 

[sojourner]

Why would you believe Jesus was Messiah if he didn't fulfill Isaiah 53 as the Guilt Offering? How do you interpret Isaiah 53:10?

What? God sacrificing Divinity to become human? We already know that Jesus didn't fit the bill for what the Jews identified as the Messiah. The Jews were mistaken, according to the Xtians.

 

[Shermana]

What? God sacrificing Divinity to become human? We already know that Jesus didn't fit the bill for what the Jews identified as the Messiah. The Jews were mistaken, according to the Xtians.

I believe he fit the bill for what many of the Nazarene/Essene Sects believed was the Messiah at the time (Though the idea that he was God himself did not originate apparently until over a century later). But how does that answer my question?

"Why would you believe Jesus was Messiah if he didn't fulfill Isaiah 53 as the Guilt Offering? How do you interpret Isaiah 53:10?"

So if Jesus wasn't even the Guilt Offering of Isaiah 53:10, on what grounds do you personally believe that he fit the OBjective requirements to be Messiah? Where does it list this requirements and why do you believe he fulfilled them? What is the basis of the reason you take up the stand to vouch for Jesus being Messiah, especially if you deny one of the most critical passages used to defend the concept. I hope that's clear. Does Isaiah 53:10 refer to something else?

 

[sojourner]

So if Jesus wasn't even the Guilt Offering of Isaiah 53:10, on what grounds do you personally believe that he fit the OBjective requirements to be Messiah?

"Because he saved humanity" leaps to mind.

 

[Shermana]

"Because he saved humanity" leaps to mind.

Okay, I can take a hint that you're not interested in answering this basic foundational question.

Doesn't the (alleged) Epistle of Peter say something about always being prepared to answer questions?

Why don't you start with explaining where it says he will save humanity.

 

[Shermana]

Sojourner, my previous answer included that in this: """Should one "sin again", a confessing and repenting is necessary for Jesus to be our Advocate before the Father again."""(1John 2:1)
Jesus became one's advocate by/through HIS shed Blood/death---Taking our "dirty sins" and giving the sinner HIS "Righteousness.

And if one is to cease sinning that means they obey the Law, all of it, every "iota". That includes Sabbath Obedience like even the Female Disciples obeyed after he was crucified.