Ban the Burqa

[texan1]

I found this to be an interesting and important article that expresses many of the feelings I have about this practice. Just curious what thoughts any of you may have on the subject......

Ban the Burqa - Claire Berlinski - National Review Online

 

[Ordeet]

Europe had to work hard to free itself from one totalitarian religion - Catholicism. I see no reason why they should not put forth just as much of a fight to free itself from another totalitarian religion of the Mohammadeans.

I particularly agree with this:

The burqa must be banned. All forms of veiling must be, if not banned, strongly discouraged and stigmatized. The arguments against a ban are coherent and principled. They are also shallow and insufficient. They fail to take something crucial into account, and that thing is this: If Europe does not stand up now against veiling — and the conception of women and their place in society that it represents — within a generation there will be many cities in Europe where no unveiled woman will walk comfortably or safely.

and this:

Veiling cannot be disambiguated from the problem of Islam’s conception of women, and this conception is directly tied to gender apartheid and the subjugation and abuse of women throughout the Islamic world, the greatest human-rights problem on the planet, bar none. Nor can the practice of veiling be divorced from the concept of namus — an ethical category that is often translated as “honor,” and if your first association with this word is “honor killing,” it is for a reason: That is the correct association. The path from veiling to the practice of killing unveiled women is not nearly so meandering as you might think.

The Burqa, is a disgusting symbol of religious oppression which has no place in secular society. If they want to dress that way, they can do so in afganistan or another mohammadean country. If we allow veiling today, the Moslems will next demand the right to conduct honor killings or to amputate limbs for theft, and the modern world will slide into anarchy as a second Holocaust occurs before our eyes.

I would go as far as to say that all religious symbols whether Xtian or Muslim have no place in the public sphere. This might go for beards for men as well.

 

[sandandfoam]

I'm not for banning anything.
The drive to ban burqa's, burn books, demonise pot smokers etc etc leaves me cold.
Live and let live

 

[texan1]

Stephenw: I don't agree that banning the burqa is in the same category as banning books or stigmatizing pot smokers. I'm all for "live and let live" unless it means "Live and let others oppress, abuse and endanger women". If you read the article you may find that you agree with some of the points made.

I like this section as well:

"There is no nation on the planet where the veil is the cultural norm and where women enjoy equal rights. Not one. Nor is there such a thing as a neighborhood where the veil is the cultural norm and yet no judgment is passed upon women who do not wear it.

Like all freedoms, religious freedom is not absolute. It is said in the United States that the Constitution is not a suicide pact, and this principle is applicable to any open society. It is one thing to say I should be perfectly free to worship Baal, another to say I must be free to sacrifice children to him. Donning a burqa is not an outrage on the order of killing a child, but it is surely an outrage on just that order to permit a culture that views women as slaves to displace one that does not. We are all by now familiar with the demographic predictions: Europe’s Muslim population is growing; many cities will soon have Muslim majorities. If the conception of Islam that the veil represents is allowed to prevail in Europe, these cities will no longer be free."

 

[Ordeet]

I'm not for banning anything.
The drive to ban burqa's, burn books, demonise pot smokers etc etc leaves me cold.
Live and let live

I'm not for abitrary bannings either, but I see banning the Burqa as being similar to banning Nazi swastikas or Mein Kampf. We can't really argue that the ban on Nazi paraphenelia has been negative for Europe, and if anything the what the Burqa symbolizes is just as bad as Nazism.

 

[sandandfoam]

I'm not for abitrary bannings either, but I see banning the Burqa as being similar to banning Nazi swastikas or Mein Kampf. We can't really argue that the ban on Nazi paraphenelia has been negative for Europe, and if anything the what the Burqa symbolizes is just as bad as Nazism.

oh dear

 

[texan1]

As Farzana Hassan, a spokesperson for the MCC says: "To cover your face is to conceal your identity. If a government claims to uphold equality between men and women, there is no reason for them to support a practice that marginalizes women."

French President Nicholas Sarkozy
"The problem of the burka is not a religious problem. This is an issues of a women’s freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France."

You may disagree, but I feel that the burqa, which hides a woman from head to toe, including her eyes, helps to maintain a lower place in society for women and brings to mind the horrible practices of Honor Killings, child brides, rape, and female genital mutilation in the Middle East. I would hate to see these practices begin to spread in the West.

 

[Badran]

I see no reason why they should not put forth just as much of a fight to free itself from another totalitarian religion of the Mohammadeans.

You have to put more effort in explaining your ridiculous comparison. What does women wearing what they want have to do with being under a "totalitarian" religion? And how are muslims in Europe resembling anything anyway near that?

The Burqa, is a disgusting symbol of religious oppression

No its not. And your lack of ability to understand that most women who wear it do so willingly doesn't excuse this ignorant claim. I don't think women should or need to cover their faces, however that doesn't make it disgusting or oppressive.

which has no place in secular society.

Really? I thought in secular societies, people have the right to practice the aspects of their religion. You'd expect at least that women should be allowed to wear what they want. Enforcing on women how to dress is the actual clear oppression.

If they want to dress that way, they can do so in afganistan or another mohammadean country.

I though you said its oppression, why aren't you against it being any where? Clearly you have no problem with it, as long as its not in your country, is that the case? (By the way, you should stop this childish "mohammadean" thing whatever that means).

If we allow veiling today, the Moslems will next demand the right to conduct honor killings

Honor killings, as we both know, is not part of Islamic teachings, it is condemned. Also, thats a really pathetic logic you got going on there. To compare honor killings to how a woman chooses to dress is stupid to say the least.

and the modern world will slide into anarchy as a second Holocaust occurs before our eyes.

Once again, you're showing how stupid and ignorant your "deductions" or conclusions are. That this is supposedly in anyway, shape or form even remotely related to how a woman dress.

I would go as far as to say that all religious symbols whether Xtian or Muslim have no place in the public sphere.

Of course they do. As long as they don't hurt other people.

 

[Cypress]

There are already many neighborhoods in Europe where scantily dressed women are not safe. In the benighted Islamic suburbs of Paris, as Samira Bellil writes in her autobiography Dans l’enfer des tournantes (“In Gang-Rape Hell”),

there are only two kinds of girls. Good girls stay home, clean the house, take care of their brothers and sisters, and only go out to go to school. . . . Those who . . . dare to wear make-up, to go out, to smoke, quickly earn the reputation as “easy” or as “little whores.”
​

Parents in these neighborhoods ask gynecologists to testify to their daughters’ virginity. Polygamy and forced marriages are commonplace. Many girls are banned from leaving the house at all. According to French-government statistics, rapes in the housing projects have risen between 15 and 20 percent every year since 1999. In these neighborhoods, women have indeed begun veiling only to escape harassment and violence. In the suburb of La Courneuve, 77 percent of veiled women report that they wear the veil to avoid the wrath of Islamic morality patrols. We are talking about France, not Iran.

That is the problem.
First some girls start wearing the Burqa because it suits them, then others who do not follow get a bad name.
Want it or not, the Burqa is a signal of chastity and when enough women wear it, those who don't get associated with unchastity.
It's a kind of automatic.

 

[Badran]

That is the problem.
First some girls start wearing the Burqa because it suits them, then others who do not follow get a bad name.
Want it or not, the Burqa is a signal of chastity and when enough women wear it, those who don't get associated with unchastity.
It's a kind of automatic.

Yet, in my country that is not the case. Lots of women wear Niqab (everything except the eyes) here in Egypt, but most people are aware that it is not a requirement, and that hijab is the standard, and that even women who don't wear hijab are not unchaste. Of course, there are always ignorant people who might view things differently.

I don't know if you're in favor of this banning or not, but please note that the article i think said banning any kind of veiling too, right?

Also, I have yet to hear one meaningful or relevant argument for telling women how to dress. You see, for us to come to such decision, there must be a very very good reason to do so, not the kind of reasons presented here. Also, in that case, i would understand (assuming given good reasons) banning burqa. But Hijab on the other hand, can never ever be any kind of remotely relevant reason to ban it.

 

[Cypress]

Yet, in my country that is not the case. Lots of women wear Niqab (everything except the eyes) here in Egypt, but most people are aware that it is not a requirement, and that hijab is the standard, and that even women who don't wear hijab are not unchaste. Of course, there are always ignorant people who might view things differently.

I think when one lives in ones own culture, in a surrounding where most people share one's religion & views, one thends to be relext and takes things more easy.
But Muslims who live in the West, they live in a society with completely different values and so for some - especially young people - Islam becomes a kind of "fortress".

 

[Badran]

I think when one lives in ones own culture, in a surrounding where most people share one's religion & views, one thends to be relext and takes things more easy.
But Muslims who live in the West, they live in a society with completely different values and so for some - especially young people - Islam becomes a kind of "fortress".

Thats a good point, i have heard repeatedly that lots of muslims tend to isolate themselves, which i guess doesn't contribute to their integration in those societies.

Thats also another reason not to make ridiculous laws that further alienates them, and makes them an easy prey for those who like to stir up trouble. I think this is important because not only it is good for those muslims in those countries, but it also contributes to the society of that country, as those muslims are part of the community, and its better to have that part not alienated or isolated.

 

[beenie]

telling women how to dress, whether enforcing veiling/niqaab/burqa or banning such clothing...is equally oppressive to women.

why is it more acceptable to ban veiling than to force it? both are abhorrent and should never be tolerated. both show a distrust of women's ability to decide for themselves what they wish to wear. just because secular societies see the burqa as oppressive doesn't give them the right to oppress women again.

in my personal opinion, i can see the argument in secular societies for not allowing face-covering. it's not a universal requirement of Islam, and i can see the point of having trouble identifying a person you can't see. unfortunately, the actions of few have ruined the harmless dress of niqaab/burqa for those who genuinely wear it without causing harm to others. in this case, it has put the burden once again on mainstream Muslims that we cannot escape...until the extremists cease their horrible behavior.

 

[xxclaro]

telling women how to dress, whether enforcing veiling/niqaab/burqa or banning such clothing...is equally oppressive to women.

why is it more acceptable to ban veiling than to force it? both are abhorrent and should never be tolerated. both show a distrust of women's ability to decide for themselves what they wish to wear. just because secular societies see the burqa as oppressive doesn't give them the right to oppress women again.

in my personal opinion, i can see the argument in secular societies for not allowing face-covering. it's not a universal requirement of Islam, and i can see the point of having trouble identifying a person you can't see. unfortunately, the actions of few have ruined the harmless dress of niqaab/burqa for those who genuinely wear it without causing harm to others. in this case, it has put the burden once again on mainstream Muslims that we cannot escape...until the extremists cease their horrible behavior.

Yep,gotta agree with that. Let them wear what they want,so long as they leave the face uncovered for indentification purposes. I'm all for government staying out of our lives as much as possible,and sometimes that means letting people live their lives the way they please,even if I don't agree with it.

 

[texan1]

Badran and ssainhu - thank you. It's nice to have input from members of the Muslim faith. And just to clarify - the article is in favor of banning the burqa in the west, not other forms of headcoverings which show the face.

 

[beenie]

Badran and ssainhu - thank you. It's nice to have input from members of the Muslim faith. And just to clarify - the article is in favor of banning the burqa in the west, not other forms of headcoverings which show the face.

Thank you.

yes, i know that this article is referring to the burqa; the fear is the slippery slope problem as well. will they stop at the burqa or will they then decide that seeing the hair is also required for identification purposes?

while i'm not in favor of face-covering for myself (i have a hard enough time with the hijaab), i truly believe that if circumstances were different and there weren't militant groups calling themselves Muslims acting violently and irrationally, we wouldn't need bans of burqas either. i strongly support the right to religious expression as long as it doesn't interfere with the laws of the land they reside in...but i will fight hard to protect women's right to wear what they wish on either side of the coin.

IMO any religion allows choice; we are harder on ourselves than God is on us.

 

[YmirGF]

Hehe. This isn't just a phenomena in Islamophobic Non-Muslim counties... See this interesting bit of news from the Middle East.

Syria bans the burka and niqab in universities | Mail Online

I guess they don't understand Islam either....

Sort of weird news from a secular country that is 87% Muslim.

 

[ChristineES]

I found this to be an interesting and important article that expresses many of the feelings I have about this practice. Just curious what thoughts any of you may have on the subject......

Ban the Burqa - Claire Berlinski - National Review Online

I am not sure we would be able to dictate to a woman what she should wear. If a woman chooses to wear a burqa, would we really have a right to tell her she can't? I would never, ever wear one, myself (unless I visited some middle Eastern country, which I don't intend to do). Can we tell nuns not wear their habits? Or tell a priest not to wear his collar?

 

[Misty]

This is a difficult one. Obviously there are places where face coverings are inappropriate and should be banned or discouraged for security reasons for instance, but I am not sure an outright ban is reasonable or feasible as it would be hard to police.

 

[Badran]

Badran and ssainhu - thank you. It's nice to have input from members of the Muslim faith.

No problem

And just to clarify - the article is in favor of banning the burqa in the west, not other forms of headcoverings which show the face.

Thats good to know, i got the impression that its talking about veils in general.