Baha'is and a new form of discrimination?

[spirit_of_dawn]

If you promise someone, for example, that you will never ever do "X", and then that person dies and you do "X", was your initial statement that you would never do that thing honest?? I would say no, but I can see how someone might think otherwise.

Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha were also exiled to Palestine and were not allowed to leave that place due to that same contract that you claim they had with the ottomans about not teaching in ottoman land, how ever Abdu'l-Baha immediately left his place of exile after the ottomans were overthrown. Based on your reasoning Abdu'l-Baha was a dishonest person.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Aaah ... no. There's nothing in the Bahai teachings to say you have to be an enrolled member to be saved. That would be too stupid for Bahai, since all the Bahais in Iran and China and most of the Middle East today are not enrolled. I am not enrolled either. Enrollment is just an administrative status, and as the secretariat wrote on behalf of the House of Justice recently "Recognition of Baha’u’llah is a matter between the individual and God. While it may not be possible for some individuals to enroll as Baha’is, they can, if they choose, continue their study of the Teachings and strive to put them into practice in their lives." (June 5, 2018 to an individual) An Israeli can be a Bahai, but cannot enroll in an Israel Bahai community - there is no organised national community to enroll in. Also not in China and a number of Islamic countries.

The first paragraph of the Aqdas is about the religious value of "works" (the ones the Aqdas goes on to prescribe, such as prayer, fasting, pilgrimmage, inheritance, marriage, divorce, tithes (huququllah) and so forth. It says that "good works" (such as these) do not have religious merit unless they are based on "recognition" (`erfaan). `Erfaan is the consciousness born of a mystic encounter with the divine, it is sometimes translated as gnostic knowing.

The context is that Bahais from Islamic backgrounds have been pestering Baha'u'llah for some years for a book of laws they can follow, to replace the Islamic Shariah code and the Bab's Bayanic law. Eventually Baha'u'llah agrees, and compiles and composes the Aqdas (some of its contents already existed in other works), but he begins by saying (my paraphrase) you can pray and fast all you like, but if you don't have `erfaan in your heart it's not worth a bean, as a way of pleasing the Beloved.

Christianity has the same concept, in the form of the much-disputed relationship between faith and works. The Bahai approach is like the Catholic one: first faith, then good works. In Islam this is the doctrine of intention/neyyat, which says that each good work (prayer, but also charity) has religious value only if it is preceded by the correct intention. One has to form the intention, I am going to pray the salat as Muhammad and Islam has taught me, and then begin the prayer, in order to have obeyed the law of praying. (the salat is the 5-times per day obligatory prayer).

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Baha'is have our world centre and main Holy places in Israel. The Israeli government provides us freedom to be in Israel but has requested we do not teach the faith in Israel. Baha'is are required to be trustworthy and honour any agreements we have with governments.

Well the UHJ disagrees with you and claims the situation is not related to the Israeli government:

"in keeping with a policy that has been strictly followed since the days of Bahá'u'lláh, Bahá'ís do not teach the Faith in Israel."

 

[Sanzbir]

This only demonstrates how easily your organization was duped by an individual. You hold to a contract made by a monarch long dead in both body and as a political entity that lasts for all time. All despite there are modern nations which protect the rights of religious freedom. Freedoms which are vastly more favorable to your religion than you could dream off under the Ottomans. Nation which are not even close to be a successor state such as Turkey of the Ottomans. Hilarious.

Yeah, if you don't find honesty a valuable thing, I totally understand your position. If you find no value in truth, then yes, there's no reason whatsoever for the prohibition and the whole thing is very foolish.

We however place value on honesty and will keep to such agreements.

 

[Shad]

I said prior agreements.

Again if you promise "I will never go to Canada", and you go to Canada after the person you made that promise to dies, I personally wouldn't think the initial promise was honest. I'd argue such an example as that would be a blatant lie if you were to go to Canada even if the promise was made to a dead person.

Your organization got duped into a bad deal. More so if the deal was made under duress you are not bound by it by modern legal codes. So your legal code is outdated and inferior. You have simple accepted the coercion as valid. This is very problematic for justice. Hypothetically if you had an adult daughter threatened with death, ergo duress, to agree to sex, is the perpetrator no longer a rapist? The daughter is bound by a contract made under duress?

Interesting....

I don't think anyone knows the specific word of the agreement, but I somehow doubt a theocratic empire would make a demand to the effect "Promise us you will never teach your religion in this region as long as our nation continues to exist" when instead they could instead simply demand "Promise us you will never teach your religion in this region." Why wouldn't the Ottoman government demand the simpler one??

Again this merely demonstrates being duped and willing accepting it.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Aaah ... no. There's nothing in the Bahai teachings to say you have to be an enrolled member to be saved. That would be too stupid for Bahai, since all the Bahais in Iran and China and most of the Middle East today are not enrolled. I am not enrolled either. Enrollment is just an administrative status, and as the secretariat wrote on behalf of the House of Justice recently "Recognition of Baha’u’llah is a matter between the individual and God. While it may not be possible for some individuals to enroll as Baha’is, they can, if they choose, continue their study of the Teachings and strive to put them into practice in their lives." (June 5, 2018 to an individual) An Israeli can be a Bahai, but cannot enroll in an Israel Bahai community - there is no organised national community to enroll in. Also not in China and a number of Islamic countries.

The first paragraph of the Aqdas is about the religious value of "works" (the ones the Aqdas goes on to prescribe, such as prayer, fasting, pilgrimmage, inheritance, marriage, divorce, tithes (huququllah) and so forth. It says that "good works" (such as these) do not have religious merit unless they are based on "recognition" (`erfaan). `Erfaan is the consciousness born of a mystic encounter with the divine, it is sometimes translated as gnostic knowing.

The context is that Bahais from Islamic backgrounds have been pestering Baha'u'llah for some years for a book of laws they can follow, to replace the Islamic Shariah code and the Bab's Bayanic law. Eventually Baha'u'llah agrees, and compiles and composes the Aqdas (some of its contents already existed in other works), but he begins by saying (my paraphrase) you can pray and fast all you like, but if you don't have `erfaan in your heart it's not worth a bean, as a way of pleasing the Beloved.

Christianity has the same concept, in the form of the much-disputed relationship between faith and works. The Bahai approach is like the Catholic one: first faith, then good works. In Islam this is the doctrine of intention/neyyat, which says that each good work (prayer, but also charity) has religious value only if it is preceded by the correct intention. One has to form the intention, I am going to pray the salat as Muhammad and Islam has taught me, and then begin the prayer, in order to have obeyed the law of praying. (the salat is the 5-times per day obligatory prayer).

No one said anything about enrolling.

As for the rest of your statements, Baha'u'llah clearly disagrees with you:

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration." (Aqdas, verse 1)
​

It's clear that you have to first recognize Baha'u'llah, then do whatever he says. And these two duties are not separable or else you are considered astray even if you perform every righteous deed.

 

[Shad]

Yeah, if you don't find honesty a valuable thing, I totally understand your position. If you find no value in truth, then yes, there's no reason whatsoever for the prohibition and the whole thing is very foolish.

Strawman. I am pointing out by legal structure and duress clause legally make the contract void.

We however place value on honesty and will keep to such agreements.

All while not respecting nor considering duress clauses. Your principle can make any rapists merely a legal sex partner by force of agreement.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Strawman. I am pointing out by legal structure and duress clause legally make the contract void.



All while not respecting nor considering duress clauses. Your principle can make any rapists merely a legal sex partner by force of agreement.

The mere claim that we are bound by a void contract shouts dishonesty.

 

[Shad]

The mere claim that we are bound by a void contract shouts dishonesty.

Nope as you are ignoring what I am saying. Read something about legal duress. A contract is void if done under duress. You said the conditions include it. Ergo if I force you to agree to something by threats you are bound it by your own logic. Modern legal systems do not consider those contract legal nor is one bound by it. Your honor code illogical.

duress

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Yeah, if you don't find honesty a valuable thing, I totally understand your position. If you find no value in truth, then yes, there's no reason whatsoever for the prohibition and the whole thing is very foolish.

We however place value on honesty and will keep to such agreements.

Look I found another piece of honesty:

"Baha’i missionaries arrived in Syria in 1892 but failed to gain significant numbers of followers." (The Baha'i Faith in Syria)

Somehow, when you flood Syria (that was part of Sham) with missionaries it is not in conflict with honesty, but if you do the same thing is Israel it is in conflict with honesty. Double hypocritical standards.

 

[Sanzbir]

Your organization got duped into a bad deal.

Yeah, no kidding. The people holding the guns usually get the better end of every deal.

More so if the deal was made under duress you are not bound by it.

Strictly speaking, that's a matter of subjective opinion.

If the sacrifice is, as it is, specifically merely a matter of not proselytizing in a country we actively avoid anyway in order to keep the word, why not??

I don't really care about proselytizing in Israel. I don't think proselyzation is even that effective of a means at gaining followers. I am basically sacrificing nothing by not doing so. I don't see how anything valuable is given up to maintain honesty here.

Pretty big difference between agreeing to a rape and an agreeing to not knock on doors in a specific area, wouldn't you agree??

Do you proselytize in Israel?? Is that why you think we got a bad deal, because you place large value the ability to proselytize your own beliefs in this geographical region??

If not, you seem to have a strange vested interest in why we gave up a right you likewise see no value in.

And if you do proselytize in Israel, certainly you are benefited from our absence.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Nope as you are ignoring what I am saying. Read something about legal duress. A contract is void if done under duress. You said the conditions include it. Ergo if I force you to agree to something by threats you are bound it by your own logic.

duress

I have no problem with your statement. I was referring to the Baha'is.

 

[Sanzbir]

Look I found another piece of honesty:

"Baha’i missionaries arrived in Syria in 1892 but failed to gain significant numbers of followers." (The Baha'i Faith in Syria)

Somehow, when you flood Syria (that was part of Sham) with missionaries it is not in conflict with honesty, but if you do the same thing is Israel it is in conflict with honesty. Double hypocritical standards.

Your source: "Overall, the Syrian Baha’i community was largely made up of Iranian expatriates who had fled persecution in their native country. As of 2008, the Syrian Baha’i community numbered around 430 adherents."

You and your source consider expatriates fleeing persecution to be "missionaries"?? You are an amusing one.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Your source: "Overall, the Syrian Baha’i community was largely made up of Iranian expatriates who had fled persecution in their native country. As of 2008, the Syrian Baha’i community numbered around 430 adherents."

You and your source consider expatriates fleeing persecution to be "missionaries"?? You are an amusing one.

Wow you are acting so irrational. Can you even read?

"Baha’i missionaries arrived in Syria in 1892 but failed to gain significant numbers of followers. Overall, the Syrian Baha’i community was largely made up of Iranian expatriates who had fled persecution in their native country. As of 2008, the Syrian Baha’i community numbered around 430 adherents."

 

[YmirGF]

Baha'is have our world centre and main Holy places in Israel. The Israeli government provides us freedom to be in Israel but has requested we do not teach the faith in Israel. Baha'is are required to be trustworthy and honour any agreements we have with governments.

I find it fascinating that they would seek to protect Bahai's but didn't want anything to do with their religion. How is this circumvented in the age of the Internet?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I find it fascinating that they would seek to protect Bahai's but didn't want anything to do with their religion. How is this circumvented in the age of the Internet?

The relationship between the Baha'is and the Israeli government is very good. One of the issues for the Israelis is another proselytizing religion.

Israel, Teaching the Faith in

The mix of politics and religion is so volatile the Baha'is are wise to steer clear of it completely.

Baha'is shouldn't be proselytizing anyhow. On this forum I personally avoid discussing certain aspects of the Baha'i Faith with the Israeli Jews here.

What would happen if I started proselytizing to Israeli Jews about the Baha'i faith? There is no Baha'i authority monitoring my activities but it is out of respect for the Universal House of Justice that I don't overstep that boundary.

 

[YmirGF]

The relationship between the Baha'is and the Israeli government is very good. One issues for the Israelis is another proselytizing.

Israel, Teaching the Faith in

The mix of politics and religion is so volatile the Baha'is are wise to steer clear of it completely.

Baha'is shouldn't be proselytizing anyhow. On this forum I personally avoid discussing certain aspects of the Baha'i Faith with the Israeli Jews here.

What would happen if I started proselytizing to Israeli Jews about the Baha'i faith? There is no Baha'i authority monitoring my activities but it is out of respect for the Universal House of Justice that I don't overstep that boundary.

Thank you, @adrian009 That certainly makes sense. Thanks for the info and the link.

 

[Vinayaka]

According to the first verse of the Most Holy Baha'i book, if you do not Believe in Baha'u'llah and do not follow his orders you are astray even if you perform every righteous of deed:

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i Aqdas, verse 1)​

So basically you are never considered a guided person unless you become a Baha'i. However the citizens of Israel how no right to become Baha'is unless they get out of the country and never return back:

Thanks again for these alternate POVs. It provides a wider range of views about this subject matter.

 

[oldbadger]

So basically, Baha'u'llah and Baha'is seem to be discriminating against Israelis in the most important of all matters (eternal salvation and guidance) and an Israeli can never be guided and is always astray as long as he refuses to leave Israel and convert to Baha'ism, vowing never ever to return to his homeland for permanent residence.

If you discriminate based on sex it is called sexism and if based on race it is called racism. I would like to introduce a new concept here called geographism, where discrimination occurs based on the geographical location that you live in. So am I wrong to assume Baha'is are geographists based on the above reasoning?

Hi......... Bahai just doesn't want to irritate Israel in any way. If they were to openly try to convert Jewish folks in Israel then they would get shut down pretty quickly, and they have planted their roots there.

But, yes, in a Bahai World non-Bahais would have no voice, vote or full status. In fact there is no reason why a future UHJ in a majority Bahai World might not enact Babi Law that Bahais could turn non-Bahais out of their homes for Bahai use..... it's there in the writings after all.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The relationship between the Baha'is and the Israeli government is very good. One issues for the Israelis is another proselytizing.

Israel, Teaching the Faith in

The mix of politics and religion is so volatile the Baha'is are wise to steer clear of it completely.

Baha'is shouldn't be proselytizing anyhow. On this forum I personally avoid discussing certain aspects of the Baha'i Faith with the Israeli Jews here.

What would happen if I started proselytizing to Israeli Jews about the Baha'i faith? There is no Baha'i authority monitoring my activities but it is out of respect for the Universal House of Justice that I don't overstep that boundary.

Very hypocritical and another example of the double standard Baha'is practice. Israel tells Baha'is they are not allowed to convert Israelis, Baha'is happily oblige. Iran tells them the same thing, they spit in the face of the Iranian government, claim that their right to freedom of religions has been infringed, and make a great deal of fuss about the whole issue including but not limited to condemning Iran and throwing whatever they have at them at every chance they get.