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Bahai - What do you think about free-bahais?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They contested the will that gave the guardianship of the Baha'i Faith to Shoghi Effendi. They claim that a handwriting expert said the will was a forgery.

That is just a load of rubbish frpm them CG. The document is still available.

The circumstances as to the reading of the will is well recorded. Abdul'baha appointed Shoghi Effendi a long time before in a document he penned when all around him thought he would be taken away to be killed. Yet Abdul'baha continued work as normal, much to the amusement of his enemies.

Then nearly at the twelfth hour the boat turned away, the Shah instead had been assassinated and the young Turks had given Abdul'baha his freedom.

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And what do you mean that "evidence" was available? They claimed they had evidence also. But the subject shouldn't be pursued? So, we should do like InvestigateTruth?

The original documents are in the Archives and have been confirmed.

But sure, look the website, does not take long to see them rubbishing the Universal House of Justice.

Go to the Offical Baha'i Website, see anything bad about anything or anyone?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's easy to find out who they are... the OP provided the link to their website. But, contrary to calling yourself "InvestigateTruth", in this case you don't care? Without investigating? Oh course, because they are to be shunned, avoided and treated as if dead. And that's what a Baha'i thinks about these people calling themselves "free-Baha'is". Why not just say so?

This is one of the first thing a Baha'i learns about CG. Maybe consider that when speaking to InvestigateTruth.

We have studied this subject and thus know of the failed attempts by a few disgruntled people wanting the Baha'i Faith to fit their visions.

We have even discussed this topic many times over the last few years with you as well. But you still have not chosen to find out what is the Truth behind these issues.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member

I had never heard of this group before. Its look like a small break away group that had its origins after 'Abdu'l-Baha's passing. 'Abdu'l-Baha appointed twin successors in his Will and Testament, Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian) and the Universal House of Justice. This group does not recognise the legitimacy of 'Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament, nor the institution of the Guardian and Universal House of Justice.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I had never heard of this group before. Its look like a small break away group that had its origins after 'Abdu'l-Baha's passing. 'Abdu'l-Baha appointed twin successors in his Will and Testament, Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian) and the Universal House of Justice. This group does not recognise the legitimacy of 'Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament, nor the institution of the Guardian and Universal House of Justice.

One of these followers was living in my Community in Western Australia, where and when I became Baha'i.

That is why the Covenant was a hot topic when I became a Baha'i.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This is one of the first thing a Baha'i learns about CG. Maybe consider that when speaking to InvestigateTruth.

We have studied this subject and thus know of the failed attempts by a few disgruntled people wanting the Baha'i Faith to fit their visions.

We have even discussed this topic many times over the last few years with you as well. But you still have not chosen to find out what is the Truth behind these issues.

Regards Tony
All I did is read the link in the OP. There is no reason why I shouldn't. If all I had was one side of the story, and believed it was true simply because they told me it was true, would that be independently investigating the truth? But, again, the OP asks what do you, a Baha'i, think of the free-Baha'is? All you had to do is say that they are covenant-breakers, and you want nothing to do with them.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All I did is read the link in the OP. There is no reason why I shouldn't. If all I had was one side of the story, and believed it was true simply because they told me it was true, would that be independently investigating the truth? But, again, the OP asks what do you, a Baha'i, think of the free-Baha'is? All you had to do is say that they are covenant-breakers, and you want nothing to do with them.

I would not say that CG, but I would always offer that their own actions have severed them from the tree, some can turn back, but it is a dangerous spiritual road.

The Bible also warns of this CG, as the 2nd death.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I would not say that CG, but I would always offer that their own actions have severed them from the tree, some can turn back, but it is a dangerous spiritual road.

The Bible also warns of this CG, as the 2nd death.

Regards Tony
That is what is so strange. Why do they believe so strongly that they are correct in all this? Knowing they are severing themselves from the main body of Baha'is... And that they will never gain a large following.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is what is so strange. Why do they believe so strongly that they are correct in all this? Knowing they are severing themselves from the main body of Baha'is... And that they will never gain a large following.

All I can offer is my experience CG. I have not always embraced the Laws as given by Baha'u'llah, I even knew at those times that I was neglecting and falling short of the very foundations of the faith, yet I still took that path. We, as humans have a unique way of justification for our own actions and sometimes we must stray and face the consequences before we can find the wisdom.

Some people are not able to come back from the self justification, their own desires overtake their choices.

God knows we will stray, that is why we have the bounty of Daily prayer, to remember who gives us life and faith, little by little, day by day we can change. No Baha'i is perfect CG, a lot of us have had to do a lot of change, many fail to implement the required change and always struggle, but that is life.

I like this part of a prayer we use during the time of the Fast.

"..I beseech Thee, O my God, by Thy mighty Sign, and by the revelation of Thy grace amongst men, to cast me not away from the gate of the city of Thy presence, and to disappoint not the hopes I have set on the manifestations of Thy grace amidst Thy creatures. Thou seest me, O my God, holding to Thy Name, the Most Holy, the Most Luminous, the Most Mighty, the Most Great, the Most Exalted, the Most Glorious, and clinging to the hem of the robe to which have clung all in this world and in the world to come....."

There are many passages about having to cling to that hem of the robe CG.

There are always consequences for our choices.

Regards Tony
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
I would not say that CG, but I would always offer that their own actions have severed them from the tree, some can turn back, but it is a dangerous spiritual road.

The Bible also warns of this CG, as the 2nd death.

Regards Tony

Wow, first I discover this sort of thinking in Jainism and now the Bahai faith.

I guess there really is no such thing as a religion of peace.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Wow, first I discover this sort of thinking in Jainism and now the Bahai faith.

I guess there really is no such thing as a religion of peace.
For the sake of peace and unity within the Baha'i Faith, anyone that doesn't follow and obey the chain of command is kicked out. Every transition from one leader to the next within the Baha'i Faith, and even the transition from The Bab to Baha'u'llah was contested. The "true" leadership went from Baha'u'llah, to Abdul Baha, to Shoghi Effendi. Then there was another problem. There was to be another guardian of the Baha'i Faith appointed by Shoghi Effendi, but he had no children, I think it had to be a descendant of Baha'u'llah, and he left no will appointing anyone. And... I don't even know if there were any family members that hadn't been ex-communicated and declared covenant-breakers. I'm sure Tony will be able to tell us.

But what the Baha'i Faith is doing, does prevent any other splinter group from ever getting enough followers and power to ever be a threat. Thus, Baha'i are unified, and they now follow the leadership of their Universal House of Justice.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wow, first I discover this sort of thinking in Jainism and now the Bahai faith.

I guess there really is no such thing as a religion of peace.

What sort of thinking? There are good reasons for laws, without laws there is anarchy.

So would you have no system of Justice?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For the sake of peace and unity within the Baha'i Faith, anyone that doesn't follow and obey the chain of command is kicked out.

The process is one of Love and encouragement.

That was the example is that Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi did all in their power to help those that suffered this great spiritual disease, where a person thinks they have become a spokesperson of God, when it is evident they are not.

One needs to understand the process and how some people just cannot look past their own desires.

I saw a show yesterday that was an amazing example of what materialism and nature and nurture can do to the progress of the soul.

It was about 2 South African boys who were switched at birth and it was 2 years later the mothers found out, but still decided to keep the same child.

one was a well to do family one was a struggling single mother. The outcome is draw dropping.

The well to do child was materialism at its worst, self centred self serving. The one brought up with the single mother, a gental caring soul.

Worth a watch.


Regards Tony
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
What sort of thinking? There are good reasons for laws, without laws there is anarchy.

So would you have no system of Justice?

Regards Tony

If you think condemning people to a "second death" is justice, then I think we have very different definitions of that word.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is just a load of rubbish frpm them CG. The document is still available.

The original documents are in the Archives and have been confirmed.
I don't know what document they had that was shown to be a forgery. But should I believe you or them? But it's not just the document... Why were all of the relatives declared covenant-breakers? Shoghi Effendi had his reasons, but all those relatives and the other people that challenged him have their reasons. What were they? Like I said, why would they challenge the appointment knowing they would probably get booted out of the Baha'i Faith? Do you really think they thought they would succeed? Do you really think that they had dreams of grandeur? It sounds like there was some controversy. Were their grievances listened to or ignored? Were their complaints proven to be wrong? If so, why didn't they stop their complaints and go along with the decision that the Will was genuine?

Now it's too late. They've been kicked out and are not to be talked to. It seems like they've been declared to be the most evil, power-hungry people in the world. Yet... they used to be high-level Baha'is that were important in getting the word about the Baha'i Faith out to the world.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't know what document they had that was shown to be a forgery. But should I believe you or them? But it's not just the document... Why were all of the relatives declared covenant-breakers?

Well I have read about these matters, I guess if you want to know, you could also. Of course they thought they would succeed, the power of self deception when one thinks they are the source of truth is a powerful deception. There is a reason we are told to stay away from such a cancer.

These teachings, warnings to those that choose a path of deception, can be found in all faiths.

The Will and Testament of Abdul'baha is a document written in three parts between 1901 and 1908. It was read officially in the Holy Land on 3 January 1922.

Here is a link to the translation

Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá | Bahá’í Reference Library

The originals are kept in the archives.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Well I have read about these matters, I guess if you want to know, you could also. Of course they thought they would succeed, the power of self deception when one thinks they are the source of truth is a powerful deception. There is a reason we are told to stay away from such a cancer.

These teachings, warnings to those that choose a path of deception, can be found in all faiths.

The Will and Testament of Abdul'baha is a document written in three parts between 1901 and 1908. It was read officially in the Holy Land on 3 January 1922.

Here is a link to the translation

Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá | Bahá’í Reference Library

The originals are kept in the archives.

Regards Tony
I don't know. I'm just reading... you know part of investigating things on my own. Here's something I found.... A Letter Of Protest To UHJ Member By Grand Daughter Of Abdul-Baha

In the letter she makes claims that members of the family were not covenant-breakers.
My maternal grandparents, who were Shoghi Effendi’s parents, his aunts and their husbands, their children and grandchildren, my own parents, aunt and both paternal and maternal uncles and their children -they were all very much a part of my life and my existence. I knew a great deal about them, and most of all, I knew a great deal about my parents, Nayer and Rouhanguise Afnan, about my husband, Hassan Shahid, and myself, Bahiyeh Afnan Shahid...

As you fully recount in Parts 1 and 2 of your book, both the periods of Baha’u’llah and the Master were rife with the problems created by the active, aggressive and deliberate opposition created by members of the family who opposed them during those periods.

Very well aware of all these matters, none, and I repeat none, of the members of the family that you deal with in your chapter, wanted either to question, undermine, or disturb the Guardianship of Shoghi Effendi, or hinder the execution of the big trust placed in his hands by the will of the Master. For years they helped him in all ways and in different capacities, until Shoghi Effendi saw fit to distance each and every one of them from the Cause and the community! You only have his version of why he considered them unworthy and systematically condemned them. But, and here is the point that I wish to underline: every one of them saw fit to withdraw quietly, without creating any trouble or difficulty. Not one of them, beginning with his parents, and down to my generation, raised a voice in dissent or made an unseemly move. In the interest of the Cause and its unity, matters as dear to their hearts, as they were to the hearts of Baha’u’llah and the Master, none of them disputed these verdicts. But this silence should not be misrepresented as an admission of guilt.

I do not know where you get your information about the family of Shoghi Effendi? But in your description of their behavior and motives I could detect no relationship to the facts of the lives of the people you so carelessly write about. Had you taken the trouble to contact some of them? You, like all scholars, would have found that history is a many-faceted thing. Even a half-hearted effort at research into the lives, characters, and motives of those mentioned, would have quickly shown that the facile, careless and carefree condemnation that you scatter around is rather rudely denuded of any relation to fact and reality.​
Anyway, like I said, I don't know who's right and who's wrong. I just looking things up and reading what I find. If you have any comments on this person and what she says, I'll be glad to listen.

Oh, and here is an article about the handwriting expert and Abdul Baha's Will...
Dr. Charles Ainsworth Mitchell (20 November 1867 – 5 January 1948) was a British chemist and forensic scientist...

In 1911 he was head of the inspection bureau of the Scotland Yard. He frequently served as an expert witness. In 1915, he gave testimony about the invisible ink used in the case of German spy, Anton Kuepferle.

In 1925 he analyzed documents and seals of Mary,Queen of Scots, and claimed to show that Mary was innocent of conspiracy to assassinate Queen Elizabeth I of England. He said that William Maitland, Mary’s secretary, forged Mary’s hand in the documents which led to Mary’s execution...

Dr. Mitchell was hired by Lady Ruth White to analyze the Will and Testament of Abdul-Baha. White opposed parts of the Will that suggested the establishment of a hierarchy in the Bahá’í Faith. His report concluded in agreement with Lady Ruth Whites allegations, that the document was a forgery. Ruth White placed a copy of Dr Mitchell’s signed report of the handwriting analysis done by the latter with the U.S. Library of Congress in the year 1930.​
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't know. I'm just reading... you know part of investigating things on my own. Here's something I found.... A Letter Of Protest To UHJ Member By Grand Daughter Of Abdul-Baha

In the letter she makes claims that members of the family were not covenant-breakers.
My maternal grandparents, who were Shoghi Effendi’s parents, his aunts and their husbands, their children and grandchildren, my own parents, aunt and both paternal and maternal uncles and their children -they were all very much a part of my life and my existence. I knew a great deal about them, and most of all, I knew a great deal about my parents, Nayer and Rouhanguise Afnan, about my husband, Hassan Shahid, and myself, Bahiyeh Afnan Shahid...

As you fully recount in Parts 1 and 2 of your book, both the periods of Baha’u’llah and the Master were rife with the problems created by the active, aggressive and deliberate opposition created by members of the family who opposed them during those periods.

Very well aware of all these matters, none, and I repeat none, of the members of the family that you deal with in your chapter, wanted either to question, undermine, or disturb the Guardianship of Shoghi Effendi, or hinder the execution of the big trust placed in his hands by the will of the Master. For years they helped him in all ways and in different capacities, until Shoghi Effendi saw fit to distance each and every one of them from the Cause and the community! You only have his version of why he considered them unworthy and systematically condemned them. But, and here is the point that I wish to underline: every one of them saw fit to withdraw quietly, without creating any trouble or difficulty. Not one of them, beginning with his parents, and down to my generation, raised a voice in dissent or made an unseemly move. In the interest of the Cause and its unity, matters as dear to their hearts, as they were to the hearts of Baha’u’llah and the Master, none of them disputed these verdicts. But this silence should not be misrepresented as an admission of guilt.

I do not know where you get your information about the family of Shoghi Effendi? But in your description of their behavior and motives I could detect no relationship to the facts of the lives of the people you so carelessly write about. Had you taken the trouble to contact some of them? You, like all scholars, would have found that history is a many-faceted thing. Even a half-hearted effort at research into the lives, characters, and motives of those mentioned, would have quickly shown that the facile, careless and carefree condemnation that you scatter around is rather rudely denuded of any relation to fact and reality.​
Anyway, like I said, I don't know who's right and who's wrong. I just looking things up and reading what I find. If you have any comments on this person and what she says, I'll be glad to listen.

Oh, and here is an article about the handwriting expert and Abdul Baha's Will...
Dr. Charles Ainsworth Mitchell (20 November 1867 – 5 January 1948) was a British chemist and forensic scientist...

In 1911 he was head of the inspection bureau of the Scotland Yard. He frequently served as an expert witness. In 1915, he gave testimony about the invisible ink used in the case of German spy, Anton Kuepferle.

In 1925 he analyzed documents and seals of Mary,Queen of Scots, and claimed to show that Mary was innocent of conspiracy to assassinate Queen Elizabeth I of England. He said that William Maitland, Mary’s secretary, forged Mary’s hand in the documents which led to Mary’s execution...

Dr. Mitchell was hired by Lady Ruth White to analyze the Will and Testament of Abdul-Baha. White opposed parts of the Will that suggested the establishment of a hierarchy in the Bahá’í Faith. His report concluded in agreement with Lady Ruth Whites allegations, that the document was a forgery. Ruth White placed a copy of Dr Mitchell’s signed report of the handwriting analysis done by the latter with the U.S. Library of Congress in the year 1930.​

Now one needs to look at the replies to those allegations CG.

Remember, they are individuals wanting to discredit the Will of Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi's rights as the Guardian to make such decisions.

If one is looking to do that, one can find an "expert" to do just that. History is full of these examples.

One needs to read about the life of Shoghi Effendi to know that he was also trustworthy and truthful.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Now one needs to look at the replies to those allegations CG.

Remember, they are individuals wanting to discredit the Will of Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi's rights as the Guardian to make such decisions.

If one is looking to do that, one can find an "expert" to do just that. History is full of these examples.

One needs to read about the life of Shoghi Effendi to know that he was also trustworthy and truthful.

Regards Tony
But what about the granddaughter of Abdul Baha? There's no descendance of Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha' that aren't covenant-breakers?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But what about the granddaughter of Abdul Baha? There's no descendance of Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha' that aren't covenant-breakers?

I see if Shoghi Effendi did not appoint anyone, then there was no one that was suitable CG.

In the end, it is all but a test. The subsequently appointed Universal House of Justice clarified this matter to the best of their abilities, which, when we are faithful to the Covernant was the guidance given of God.

Letter such as this, written ro an individual believer, address this issue.

https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...ages/19660527_001/19660527_001.xhtml?54321697

Regards Tony
 
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