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Baha'i and Messengers

F1fan

Veteran Member
Firstly, I notice you are a Buddhist. I believe in the Buddha too so always feel very welcome to teach me more as one can never stop learning. My favourite saying of the Buddha is one that I loved so much that I just remembered it so great an impression it left on me. It’s from the Dhamapadda, the Thousands.

“A man may conquer ten times ten thousand in battle, but he is the true conquerer who conquers his own self” How profound is that?
The dilemma with Buddhism and what Krishnamurti taught was that what religion does for and to the self is the antithesis to what it promises. Religions offer an easy path of an illusory and ideal world, and being religious does not require understand what the self is attracted to about it. It is a self-serving behavior. It is self-validating. It gives the ego exactly what it craves. Once religious belief gets under a person's skin it becomes a very difficult task to examine it objectively. The more a person accepts and adopts more and more belief, and becomes more convinced it's true, them more layers of dogma suffocate the spirit.

To my mind the human spirit is suffocated by religious belief, and being free of the walls of religious dogma is the successful spiritual path. Ironically it can be non-believers who are open to a more authentic and true life experience as a result. It takes more personal responsibility for the self, as dogma offers a huge crutch and distraction from the self being responsible for itself.

What Siddartha was referencing above is how the self can see the self for what it is, not for what a dogma says the self should be, or can be, or ought to be. Krishnamurti would call this process "the observer and the observed" both being the self. A religious path is easy. A path where the self has to be true to self, authentic, responsible, moral, and accountable is very hard. We humans are lazy and will go the path of least resistance. This tends to be a subconscious drive, much like the temptation for religious belief is.

What convinced me was the Words of Baha’u’llah.
If this was an objective and rational process you will be able to submit your line of thought to this group and we will see you are correct. Do you think we will confirm your thinking?

Baha’u’llah is mentioned often in both the Bible and Quran and other Holy Scriptures. A Promised One is foretold to appear to renew religion at the time of the end and usher in a golden age.
So vague references that you interpret is Baha’u’llah. No direct mention of this name, correct?

So why did you dismiss the Urantia book so quickly? I doubt you read the whole 2000+ pages in a day and saw no reference that could be interpreted as Baha’u’llah.

It is crucial because Baha’u’llah has brought teachings and laws for this age.
And what if he is incorrect?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Consider how clearly the advent of the Báb has been specified in the Torah and the Gospel!”
Clear to you, but not to me. Plus, why use a quote about Jesus when we don't know for sure that is what he really said? Because, supposedly, he also said, "touch me and see that I have flesh and bone and am not a ghost." Yet, we don't believe those words. Or, when in Mark16, he said "17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

The other problem is the gospel writers, especially Matthew, I think took lots of verses out of context and made them prophecies. Like Isaiah 7:14. When did Jesus fulfill Isaiah 7:15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

So, when Baha'is say that the second Woe is The Bab, but the verses that pertain to the second Woe are then said to be about Muhammad and Ali, I have my suspicions that something is wrong with the interpretation.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There is serious problem for theists who claim God is the creator, and is omnipotent, and then insist God isn't accountable for how things are. Even humans are held accountable for things they design and build that end up falling short of their intent. But the all-mighty, all-powerful, timeless God is held to a lower standard?
I would never claim that. It is a problem with logic when theists claim that God is not responsible for the world that He created. God is not responsible for human free will choices, but God is responsible for everything else that we have to endure in this world, as well as all the suffering that non-human animals have to endure. Even though it is in the Baha'i Writings, Baha'is ignore what they want to ignore in order to maintain their belief that God is loving.
Count me out.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure them because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the bad things happen are beyond our control. That is our fate, for which God is responsible.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why would that be crucial? The Bible and Quran don't mention the guy. And if these books were based on Messengers who were tapped into an ultimate power of truth then why didn't they mention his as a requirement? What makes it important all of a sudden?
Reminds me. Krishna is the 8th Avatar and Buddha is the 9th. The next one the 10th is Kalki. And, of course, Baha'u'llah is believed by Baha'is to be that 10th Avatar. But? What happened to all those that came after Buddha? Which is at least Jesus, Muhammad and The Bab. So, Baha'u'llah should be nothing less than the 13th.

It's almost like they're making it up as they go. Way too inconsistent.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There is serious problem for theists who claim God is the creator, and is omnipotent, and then insist God isn't accountable for how things are. Even humans are held accountable for things they design and build that end up falling short of their intent. But the all-mighty, all-powerful, timeless God is held to a lower standard?
The Christian God at least has Satan to blame for some of the problems. Baha'is only have God. If he made things and made humans with the ability to disobey him his laws and commands, and knew that they would, then that is exactly how he wanted things to be. But then, is that concept of God real? I can see how there could be a positive and negative creative force out there. With the positive force being stronger of course.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hmmmmm, and you suppose no one is capable of actually doing that THEMSELVES? To proceed with that sort of reasoning, one COULD conclude that ONLY believers are "Godly", while all NONbelievers are "evil Satanists" at heart.
I find myself entertaining some pretty "animalistic tendencies" on occasion, but my own personal common sense keeps me from acting them out......that plus knowing what the consequences would be HAD I acted out upon them.
Just how I happen to see it. Your explanation IS a good one......I simply do not believe it is all what it "says" it is.
To live together we do need some rules to limit our behavior. But in ancient times I think people had to say these laws came from the Gods and must be followed, or they may all be punished. And this did happen to the Israelites. One of them disobeyed and they all were punished by God. And then when the culprit was found, God smote him good or had the people stone him to death... and sometimes his family too. Now that'll keep people in line. If it were true. But if God doesn't enforce his laws by striking people dead, then is he really real? Or was he just make believe?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I see the 1260 is not complcated CG. To me it was just prophecy telling us precisely the length of the dispensation of Muhammad.

That in the year 1260 of Islam the Prophecies would unfold.

What the amazing thing is, is that there was a Message given in the year 1844, which is the year 1260 and there were also christains that had got that date correct and Muslims that also got it correct.

Many were then called, yet as it has been at the birth of all Faiths, few are chosen and we only have ourselves to blame for that.

Regards Tony
It works for you... great. But I don't see how any of those refer to the date of the Hegira. Let alone all of them. They are different events that started before and after each other and ended at different times, yet... Baha'is say they all started in 621AD and ended in 1844. Then in one of the Daniel prophecies, the 1290 days, the starting date is made 10 lunar years before the Hegira to get to the year 1863. It don't work for me.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Baha'is say they all started in 621AD and ended in 1844.

That is not what I see is offered.

What is offered is Islam will last 1260 years, which it did.

Screenshot_20220124-071958_Chrome.jpg

Regards Tony
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It is a self-serving behavior. It is self-validating. It gives the ego exactly what it craves. Once religious belief gets under a person's skin it becomes a very difficult task to examine it objectively. The more a person accepts and adopts more and more belief, and becomes more convinced it's true, them more layers of dogma suffocate the spirit.
Ironically, one religion can see that in some other religion. Naturally, theirs is the truth. So, it doesn't apply to them.

Also... this is why I was wondering if Baha'is could put aside their efforts to try and prove that God exists and that their prophet is his messenger, to find common ground with others to work towards this "lesser" peace that they believe is the next step that must be taken to unite the world. I don't think they can. They have already become more and more convinced that the Baha'is Faith and Baha'u'llah is true, and that peace and unity has to include an acknowledgement that they, the Baha'is, came up with the idea.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is not what I see is offered.

What is offered is Islam will last 1260 years, which it did.

View attachment 59306

Regards Tony
I don't know what references you have from Islam, but those verses in Revelation about the 1260 days are the ones I'm questioning. There are six things that get made into 1260 years. The trampling. The prophesying. Being dead in the street. Twice a woman fleeing to the wilderness is referenced. Then a beast has power and authority. All of them began in 621AD and ended in 1844?

Do you see why I'd question such as interpretation? It's not all that simple.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't know what references you have from Islam, but those verses in Revelation about the 1260 days are the ones I'm questioning. There are six things that get made into 1260 years. The trampling. The prophesying. Being dead in the street. Twice a woman fleeing to the wilderness is referenced. Then a beast has power and authority. All of them began in 621AD and ended in 1844?

Do you see why I'd question such as interpretation? It's not all that simple.

Yes all those things happened in Islam in its appointed time which was to last 1260 years. It all unfolded at various times during the 1260 years.

It is not chronological.

Regards Tony
 

SlaveofShinri

New Member
I think it’s very odd to think that God only sends one messenger every thousand years. The Truth is the ultimate controller of all of creation and puts a message to everyone’s heart.

Everyone is a messenger.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The Christian God at least has Satan to blame for some of the problems.
And where did Satan come from? God.

To my mind I think a better myth would have been that God creates a devil and a good angel, or whatever. These two could be what fights for humanity, and this let's God off the hook. But God creates Satan as the yang to itself. And in some stories God is the bad actor, which just makes morality a bit more fuzzy.

Baha'is only have God. If he made things and made humans with the ability to disobey him his laws and commands, and knew that they would, then that is exactly how he wanted things to be. But then, is that concept of God real? I can see how there could be a positive and negative creative force out there. With the positive force being stronger of course.
The buck stops here. The Creator is responsible for what it creates. If it is a flawed creator then we can understand when things go wrong and need fixes, like saviors and Messengers. But are things getting better with more Messengers?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The dilemma with Buddhism and what Krishnamurti taught was that what religion does for and to the self is the antithesis to what it promises. Religions offer an easy path of an illusory and ideal world, and being religious does not require understand what the self is attracted to about it. It is a self-serving behavior. It is self-validating. It gives the ego exactly what it craves. Once religious belief gets under a person's skin it becomes a very difficult task to examine it objectively. The more a person accepts and adopts more and more belief, and becomes more convinced it's true, them more layers of dogma suffocate the spirit.

To my mind the human spirit is suffocated by religious belief, and being free of the walls of religious dogma is the successful spiritual path. Ironically it can be non-believers who are open to a more authentic and true life experience as a result. It takes more personal responsibility for the self, as dogma offers a huge crutch and distraction from the self being responsible for itself.

What Siddartha was referencing above is how the self can see the self for what it is, not for what a dogma says the self should be, or can be, or ought to be. Krishnamurti would call this process "the observer and the observed" both being the self. A religious path is easy. A path where the self has to be true to self, authentic, responsible, moral, and accountable is very hard. We humans are lazy and will go the path of least resistance. This tends to be a subconscious drive, much like the temptation for religious belief is.


If this was an objective and rational process you will be able to submit your line of thought to this group and we will see you are correct. Do you think we will confirm your thinking?


So vague references that you interpret is Baha’u’llah. No direct mention of this name, correct?

So why did you dismiss the Urantia book so quickly? I doubt you read the whole 2000+ pages in a day and saw no reference that could be interpreted as Baha’u’llah.


And what if he is incorrect?

Yes dogma clouds religion today I agree because it is made up by people who’s ambition is to maintain control over their followers so they feed their ego what it loves to hear. That only they possess truth, only they will be saved and all others are misled.

But I don’t believe religion, as taught by the Founders offers an easy or lazy path at all. Being virtuous and acquiring morals them is a lifelong struggle.

The only just way one can find out if something is true or not is to independently investigate it for themselves. It took me many years of search. One will be rewarded according to the intensity and sincerity of one’s search.

Baha’u’llah is an Arabic word meaning Glory of God. This is a very vast topic which would require a thread of its own just to list all the places He has been mentioned in so many Holy Books. It would require an entire volume to mention all the references to Him.

I haven’t dismissed the Urantia book. I’m sure I will find many gems of truth in it when I have a good read of it.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes all those things happened in Islam in its appointed time which was to last 1260 years. It all unfolded at various times during the 1260 years.

It is not chronological.

Regards Tony
So, what ever happened between 621AD and 1844 we can say that such and such lasted 1260 days, which gets changed to 1260 lunar years, when it only last 100 years? Or... for 42 months some person did this and that. Then the 42 months gets converted to 1260 days then 1260 lunar years and those years started in 621AD and ended in 1844, when that person didn't actually do anything in 621AD, but long after that and was long since dead before 1844?

Okay, I see how this prophecy thing works now. Find the date you want to end at, then count backwards to find when to start it. And it doesn't matter when it actually happened. Like the Umayyads and the Abbasids. They didn't gain power in 621AD. And they lost their power hundreds and hundreds of years before The Bab declared in 1844. No reason to think they fulfilled any prophecy about a beast or dragon having power for 1260 days. Unless... you're a Baha'i. If you think it all makes sense, then what can I say, except that I disagree.

But same with the Three Woes from Revelation and the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel.

Oh, the two witnesses prophesied for 1260 days, then they were killed and lay in the street for 3 1/2 days. That's not "chronological"? For Baha'is to be correct they prophesied for the same 1260 years while they were also dead for those same 1260 years. And I might as while add in the beast. He had authority for 42 months, which becomes the same 1260 years? That is some creative interpreting.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yes dogma clouds religion today I agree because it is made up by people who’s ambition is to maintain control over their followers so they feed their ego what it loves to hear. That only they possess truth, only they will be saved and all others are misled.

But I don’t believe religion, as taught by the Founders offers an easy or lazy path at all. Being virtuous and acquiring morals them is a lifelong struggle.

The only just way one can find out if something is true or not is to independently investigate it for themselves. It took me many years of search. One will be rewarded according to the intensity and sincerity of one’s search.

Baha’u’llah is an Arabic word meaning Glory of God. This is a very vast topic which would require a thread of its own just to list all the places He has been mentioned in so many Holy Books. It would require an entire volume to mention all the references to Him.

I haven’t dismissed the Urantia book. I’m sure I will find many gems of truth in it when I have a good read of it.
I noticed you avoided this one question that I'm most interested in, and perhaps others:

If this was an objective and rational process you will be able to submit your line of thought to this group and we will see you are correct. Do you think we will confirm your thinking?

Which was a response to this statement of yours:

What convinced me was the Words of Baha’u’llah.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
And where did Satan come from? God.

To my mind I think a better myth would have been that God creates a devil and a good angel, or whatever. These two could be what fights for humanity, and this let's God off the hook. But God creates Satan as the yang to itself. And in some stories God is the bad actor, which just makes morality a bit more fuzzy.


The buck stops here. The Creator is responsible for what it creates. If it is a flawed creator then we can understand when things go wrong and need fixes, like saviors and Messengers. But are things getting better with more Messengers?
Christians try to get God off the hook for creating Satan. You know the story. Lucifer was the most beautiful of all angels, but he let his pride get the better of him. He rebelled, and God being the wise God that he is thought, "Ah, I will cast this evil being to Earth." So, God didn't know Lucifer would rebel when he created him? Yes, he did. God knows everything. Then God didn't know the trouble Satan was going to cause on Earth? Yes, he did. And if any of that is true, then it must have been God's plan all along. Or... We can just take it as ancient religious myth and not try to explain why God is not to blame.

So, what is a more sensible reason why there is pain and suffering and all the rest of the stuff going on around us? We know there is love and hate. Light and dark and so on. I know... let's invent like a cosmic force or something. There is a positive side to the force, that is good and creates. And a dark side that does evil and destroys. And there is a cosmic battle going on. But the forces of light are stronger than the dark side. Then we could have some people that can channel the good side of the force to combat the dark side. Wait, it sounds kind of like what the ancient people did when they invented a good God and a bad lesser god. It also kind of sounds like a movie I watched.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, what ever happened between 621AD and 1844 we can say that such and such lasted 1260 days, which gets changed to 1260 lunar years, when it only last 100 years? Or... for 42 months some person did this and that. Then the 42 months gets converted to 1260 days then 1260 lunar years and those years started in 621AD and ended in 1844, when that person didn't actually do anything in 621AD, but long after that and was long since dead before 1844?

Okay, I see how this prophecy thing works now. Find the date you want to end at, then count backwards to find when to start it. And it doesn't matter when it actually happened. Like the Umayyads and the Abbasids. They didn't gain power in 621AD. And they lost their power hundreds and hundreds of years before The Bab declared in 1844. No reason to think they fulfilled any prophecy about a beast or dragon having power for 1260 days. Unless... you're a Baha'i. If you think it all makes sense, then what can I say, except that I disagree.

But same with the Three Woes from Revelation and the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel.

Oh, the two witnesses prophesied for 1260 days, then they were killed and lay in the street for 3 1/2 days. That's not "chronological"? For Baha'is to be correct they prophesied for the same 1260 years while they were also dead for those same 1260 years. And I might as while add in the beast. He had authority for 42 months, which becomes the same 1260 years? That is some creative interpreting.

That is trying to make a story out of it CG.

I do not see that is how it works. Prophecy contains metaphor for a spiritual reality.

  1. 1260 is the Dispensation of Islam, does not matter when it started, it finished in the year 1260, or 1844, which was the year a New Message was given.
  2. Dead in the Streets means the Spirit of Islam was lost from the beginning with the broken covenant when Ali was displaced as the appointed succession. Only the body, the out side practices remained.
  3. The Beast is what the Body without the Spirit became, 7 kingdoms and 10 rulers which lasted to 1260.
It is just all parts of a puzzle.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I noticed you avoided this one question that I'm most interested in, and perhaps others:

If this was an objective and rational process you will be able to submit your line of thought to this group and we will see you are correct. Do you think we will confirm your thinking?

Which was a response to this statement of yours:

What convinced me was the Words of Baha’u’llah.

Someone else's objective and rational approach may not be anothers, so it is unlikely total agreement can be found.

In fact the approach has been posted in this OP numerous times.

Regards Tony
 
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