"BADAA"

[Khudayar]

No, I don't have any time. I am not just into sect discussions. And trust me, it is not some circles. I can support any sunni-shia-sufi on the concepts that I agree with them and oppose and refute them on the subjects that I disagree with them but I don't see any point in it. It is a waste of time when there is more important subjects. And I am trying you to stop wasting people's time also. Either you respect that or enjoy your sectarianism. But on another place. Because the DIR's in Islam section is closed to sect discussions.

 

[mojtaba]

So whatever the person chose is written in the al-Lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet).
Now how does this effect the "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written)?
Please explain using the same example of 75 and 150 years.

Salamon alaykum.

Islamic texts mention two types of ajals (times of death) for each person. The Quran says: “قضى اجلاً و اجلٌ مسمى عنده” “then He(Allah) ordained the term [of your life] and the specified term is with Him…”. This means that man has an indefinite ajal that can be changed and a definite ajal that cannot be changed. The fact that the second ajal cannot be changed is understood from taking the word “عنده” into consideration, because the Quran also states: “و ما عند الله باق” “What is with Allah shall last…”. This is the ajal that the Quran makes reference to in verse 49 of surah Yunus which states: “There is a time for every nation: when their time comes, they shall not defer it by a single hour nor shall they advance it.”

If we consider this point along with verse 39 of surah Ra’d which states: “لكل اجل كتاب يمحو الله ما يشاء و يثبت و عنده ام الكتاب: Allah effaces and confirms whatever He wishes and with Him is Umm al-Kitab (the Mother Book)", we can conclude that ajal musamma (the definite ajal) is that which is recorded in the “Umm al-Kitāb( the al-Lawh al-mahfûz ) ” and ajal muallaq (the conditional ajal) is in the Tablet of Maḥw and Ithbāt.
Source: What is the essence of death and can one delay it? - Questions Archive - IslamQuest is a reference for Islamic questions on the internet

If in the Lawh al-Mahfuz is written the person will die after 150 years, he will certainly die after 150 years and this number never changes. Because Lawh al-Mahfuz is the eternal knowledge of Allah( or is a non-material great creature of God in which the eternal knowledge of Allah is written ).
But first, the person choses to live unhealthy. So he will live up-to 75 years and it is now written in the Lawh Maḥw and Ithbāt( the tablet that can be erased and re-written ) that he will die when he is 75 years old. But after he changes his choise and decides to live healthy, Allah effaces the number 75 which is in the Lawh Maḥw and Ithbāt and re-writes number 150 in it( This is what we name it Bada'), the number which was in th lawh al-Mhfuz. Indeed, Allah knew he will optionaly choose to live healthy. Hence it was written in the Lawh al-Mahfuz the number 150.

My question regarding Bada occuring in the knowlede of Allah or not is in response to your ff statement.

Please explain fully what you mean by Bada does not occur in the knowledge of Allah.
Jazakallah for your time and effort.
Salaam
faroukfarouk

Brother Khudayar answered you.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Walaikum salam brother Mojtaba.
Firstly jazakallah for you explanation.

If in the Lawh al-Mahfuz is written the person will die after 150 years, he will certainly die after 150 years and this number never changes. Because Lawh al-Mahfuz is the eternal knowledge of Allah( or is a non-material great creature of God in which the eternal knowledge of Allah is written ).
But first, the person choses to live unhealthy. So he will live up-to 75 years and it is now written in the Lawh Maḥw and Ithbāt( the tablet that can be erased and re-written ) that he will die when he is 75 years old. But after he changes his choise and decides to live healthy, Allah effaces the number 75 which is in the Lawh Maḥw and Ithbāt and re-writes number 150 in it( This is what we name it Bada'), the number which was in th lawh al-Mhfuz. Indeed, Allah knew he will optionaly choose to live healthy. Hence it was written in the Lawh al-Mahfuz the number 150.

Just to understand you correctly.
If in the al-Lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) a persons name is recorded to die at age 150 years but this person chooses to live unhealthy so he dies at age 75.Now Allah erases 150 years from "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written) and re-writes 75 years.

Questions.
1.Is the above correct?
2.You have 2 seperate " tablets"
The "al-Lawh al-mahfûz" (The Preserved Tablet) and the "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written)
Is this correct?

Finally
On the question of your ff statement.

Bada' doesn't occur in the knowledge of Allah(Knower of the unseen and the witnessed). Bada' occurs in our destiny, which Allah sets it according to our deeds.

Note the answer given by brother Khudayar is unclear to me.Please explain your answer using the 75 and 150 years example so as to clear any misunderstanding.
Jazakallah for your time and effort.
faroukfarouk

 

[mojtaba]

Salamun alayka brother.

Walaikum salam brother Mojtaba.
Firstly jazakallah for you explanation.


Just to understand you correctly.
If in the al-Lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) a persons name is recorded to die at age 150 years but this person chooses to live unhealthy so he dies at age 75.Now Allah erases 150 years from "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written) and re-writes 75 years.

Questions.
1.Is the above correct?
2.You have 2 seperate " tablets"
The "al-Lawh al-mahfûz" (The Preserved Tablet) and the "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written)
Is this correct?

1. If he finally dies at age 150, yes, this is correct. Otherwise, this isn't correct.
2.Yes. There are two distinct Tablets.

Finally
On the question of your ff statement.
Note the answer given by brother Khudayar is unclear to me.Please explain your answer using the 75 and 150 years example so as to clear any misunderstanding.
Jazakallah for your time and effort.
faroukfarouk

I wanted to say that the knowledge of Allah never changes.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Walaikum salam brother Mojtaba.
Lets look at another example.
If in the al-Lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) a persons name is recorded to die at age 75 years but this person chooses to live healthy so he dies at age 150.Now Allah erases 75 years from "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written) and re-writes 150 years.

Is this correct?

Salaams
faroukfarouk

 

[mojtaba]

Walaikum salam brother Mojtaba.
Lets look at another example.
If in the al-Lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) a persons name is recorded to die at age 75 years but this person chooses to live healthy so he dies at age 150.Now Allah erases 75 years from "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written) and re-writes 150 years.

Is this correct?

Salaams
faroukfarouk

Salamon alaykum.
No. This is not correct.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Walaikum salam brother Mojtaba.
So whatever is written in the "al-Lawh al-mahfûz" (The Preserved Tablet) will occur.In other words nothing can change from whats written in the al-Lawh al-mahfûz" (The Preserved Tablet).If it is written 150 years then he will die at 150 years or if 75 years is written then 75 years he will die.
Question.
1.If the above is correct which you so confirms in post 22 then my question is what is the need for the tablet called "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written)?
2.The "al-Lawh al-mahfûz" (The Preserved Tablet) is mentioned in the Noble Quraan.Where in the Noble Quraan does it mention the "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written)?
Jazakallah
faroukfarouk

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam Friends,

I just saw this thread about Bada. I also recently created a thread in Baha'I directory regarding Bada.

Do you know if there is any Hadith or verse of Quran that teaches that one Of the purposes of Bada is to Test the Faith of believers, meaning that God may change something that said before. Those whose faith is shaken by the change, fail the test and complain that God cannot change His word. But the Believers would say, God does what He wills, He may erase and say a new thing.
Do you have such belief in Shia?

 

[mojtaba]

Salam Friends,

Do you know if there is any Hadith or verse of Quran that teaches that one of the purposes of Bada is to test the faith of believers, meaning that God may change something that said before.

Salam dear InvestigateTruth.

What verse or hadith says this?

In the parlance of Shia scholars, Bada' applies to the change in the natural course of someone’s destiny as a result of his or her righteous and wholesome behavior, which I mentioned on the my first post.[URL="http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/badaa.176846/#post-4288130"]"BADAA"[/URL]

Those whose faith is shaken by the change, fail the test and complain that God cannot change His word. But the Believers would say, God does what He wills, He may erase and say a new thing.
Do you have such belief in Shia?

You mentioned: " Those whose faith is shaken by the change, fail the test and complain that God cannot change His word ".

Dear InvestigateTruth, Badaa' is different from what you mentioned.
Badaa' never occurs for some happenings( Indeed Allah does not break His promise[Holy Qur'an, 3:9] ). Some sings of the re-appearance of al-Qa'im and re-appearance itself are between that happenings that never change.

Read ff traditions from infallible Imams:

1.Imam Sadiq said to Hanzalah:
'The five sings before the rising of al-Qaim are:
(i)[The appearance of] Yemani,(ii)[Revolt of] Sufiyani,(iii)Mysterious voice,(iv)Murder of the Nafs al-Zakiyyah[ in Mecca ] ,(v) Sinking [of Sufyani's army between Mecca and Medina at a place known as Baiza].
Hanzalah asked from Imam:' If an individual from your descendant rose( to do what al-Qa'im will do ) before happening of these signs, should we rise with him? '. Imam said:' No ' [1]

2.Abdul Malik ibn 'A'yan narrates that I said to Imam Baqir about al-Qa'im:' I fear that al-Qa'im comes soon and would not come Sofiyani (before his re-appearance) '. Imam replied:' No, by Allah, Sofiyani is Mahtoom(محتوم: which never changes).[2]

3. Imam Baqir: 'The signs are either Moquf(i.e., mutable, inconstant) or Mahtoom(i.e. sure, unchangeable), and Sufiyani is between the Mahtoom signs that will certainly happen.'[3]

4.Imam Sadiq:
'From amoung Mahtoom(sure) signs that will occure before the re-appearance of the al-Qa'im are: 1. The insurrection of Sufiyani, 2. Falling down in Bidaa', 3.Murder of the Nafs alzakiyah( in Mecca ), and 4.Mysterious voice from the heaven '.[4]


5.Imam Baghir said to Homran 'ibn 'A'yan:
' Mahtoom is which will not happen but that.'
Homran said to Imam:' I hope that Sufiyani would not be a Mahtoom sign'.
Imam replied:'No, by Allah. That is between Matoom signs'.[5]

1.al-Kafi by Koleyni, V. 8, Page 310
2. al-Ghibah by No'mani, page 203. Bihar al-Anwar by Allamah Majlesi, V. 52, page 249.
3. al-Ghibah by No'mani, page 204. Bihar al-Anwar by Allamah Majlesi, V. 52, page 249.
4. al-Ghibah by No'mani, page 176. Montakhabul 'Athar by Safi Gholpaygani, page 455.
5. Bihar al-Anwar by Allamah Majlesi, V. 52, page 249.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam dear InvestigateTruth.

What verse or hadith says this?

In the parlance of Shia scholars, Bada' applies to the change in the natural course of someone’s destiny as a result of his or her righteous and wholesome behavior, which I mentioned on the my first post."BADAA"


You mentioned: " Those whose faith is shaken by the change, fail the test and complain that God cannot change His word ".

Dear InvestigateTruth, Badaa' is different from what you mentioned.
Badaa' never occurs for some happenings( Indeed Allah does not break His promise[Holy Qur'an, 3:9] ). Some sings of the re-appearance of al-Qa'im and re-appearance itself are between that happenings that never change.

Read ff traditions from infallible Imams:

1.Imam Sadiq said to Hanzalah:
'The five sings before the rising of al-Qaim are:
(i)[The appearance of] Yemani,(ii)[Revolt of] Sufiyani,(iii)Mysterious voice,(iv)Murder of the Nafs al-Zakiyyah[ in Mecca ] ,(v) Sinking [of Sufyani's army between Mecca and Medina at a place known as Baiza].
Hanzalah asked from Imam:' If an individual from your descendant rose( to do what al-Qa'im will do ) before happening of these signs, should we rise with him? '. Imam said:' No ' [1]

2.Abdul Malik ibn 'A'yan narrates that I said to Imam Baqir about al-Qa'im:' I fear that al-Qa'im comes soon and would not come Sofiyani (before his re-appearance) '. Imam replied:' No, by Allah, Sofiyani is Mahtoom(محتوم: which never changes).[2]

3. Imam Baqir: 'The signs are either Moquf(i.e., mutable, inconstant) or Mahtoom(i.e. sure, unchangeable), and Sufiyani is between the Mahtoom signs that will certainly happen.'[3]

4.Imam Sadiq:
'From amoung Mahtoom(sure) signs that will occure before the re-appearance of the al-Qa'im are: 1. The insurrection of Sufiyani, 2. Falling down in Bidaa', 3.Murder of the Nafs alzakiyah( in Mecca ), and 4.Mysterious voice from the heaven '.[4]


5.Imam Baghir said to Homran 'ibn 'A'yan:
' Mahtoom is which will not happen but that.'
Homran said to Imam:' I hope that Sufiyani would not be a Mahtoom sign'.
Imam replied:'No, by Allah. That is between Matoom signs'.[5]

1.al-Kafi by Koleyni, V. 8, Page 310
2. al-Ghibah by No'mani, page 203. Bihar al-Anwar by Allamah Majlesi, V. 52, page 249.
3. al-Ghibah by No'mani, page 204. Bihar al-Anwar by Allamah Majlesi, V. 52, page 249.
4. al-Ghibah by No'mani, page 176. Montakhabul 'Athar by Safi Gholpaygani, page 455.
5. Bihar al-Anwar by Allamah Majlesi, V. 52, page 249.

Dear Mojtaba,

Thanks for explaining and referring to those Hadithes.

What would you say about these Hadithes then:

We were with Imam al-Jawad (AS) when the issue of Sufyani was brought up and the traditions which state that his advent is of the definite matters. I said to Imam al-Jawad (AS), "Does Allah make bada’ in the definite matters?" He (AS) replied, "Yes." I said, "Then, we have a fear that Allah makes bada’ in (the rising of) al-Qa'im." The Imam replied, "al-Qa'im is of the Promises, and Allah does not break His Promises (referring to verses 3:9 and 13:31)."[34][35]

[35]Bihar al-Anwar, vol.52, p.250, Hadith 138


I asked Imam al-Baqir (AS) about this matter (i.e., the rising of al-Mahdi (AS)). He (AS) replied, "Because you expect that it comes to you in a (certain) way, do not deny it (if it happens in another way)."[32][40]


[40]Bihar al-Anwar, vol.52, p.268, Hadith 157

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bada'#In_the_Quran




Also, As regards to your question about what I mentioned that the Purpose of Bad'a has been to test, I post a reference from a Shia website:

What would you say about this?

"[Shakir 7:142]
And We appointed with Musa a time of thirty nights and completed them with ten (more), so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights

It can be read very clearly that Allah (swt) had initially made the covenant for thirty days/nights but later on 10 more nights were added to the covenant. This does not constitute a change in the knowledge of Allah (swt) rather there was a change in the knowledge of Musa (as). Allah (swt) already knew that Musa (as) was to be issued the Torah after forty days. The very fact has been stated in Holy Quran in the following manner:

“so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights”

That is the reason that in another verse, Allah (swt) stated:

[Yusufali 2:51]
And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

This verse revealed the reason why this was initially kept from Musa (as) the ten day delay in returning to his people was a test of their faith, those amongst them with weak beliefs came under the influence of Samri and started to worship the calf and in this way, and hence failed the test."

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/bada/in-quran.html

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba,

Thanks for explaining and referring to those Hadithes.

What would you say about these Hadithes then:

We were with Imam al-Jawad (AS) when the issue of Sufyani was brought up and the traditions which state that his advent is of the definite matters. I said to Imam al-Jawad (AS), "Does Allah make bada’ in the definite matters?" He (AS) replied, "Yes." I said, "Then, we have a fear that Allah makes bada’ in (the rising of) al-Qa'im." The Imam replied, "al-Qa'im is of the Promises, and Allah does not break His Promises (referring to verses 3:9 and 13:31)."[34][35]

[35]Bihar al-Anwar, vol.52, p.250, Hadith 138


I asked Imam al-Baqir (AS) about this matter (i.e., the rising of al-Mahdi (AS)). He (AS) replied, "Because you expect that it comes to you in a (certain) way, do not deny it (if it happens in another way)."[32][40]


[40]Bihar al-Anwar, vol.52, p.268, Hadith 157

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bada'#In_the_Quran

Dear InvestigateTruth, I answered to this question on your thread which was in the Baha'i DIR. But I don't know why when I say a truth in Baha'i DIR, My posts would be deleted! Truths such as the true situation of Baha'is in Iran that they are not how dear arthra says on Baha'i DIR. However, Allah is all-knowing.
I payed very times for answering you, but your thread deleted and my time went to waste!
Dear friend, I want to share with you my knowledge, because the Islamic and Baha'i books are directly available for me. But because you do not know Persian and Arabic, that books are not directly available for you and your knowledge about Islam and also Baha'ism is limited.

But about that two Hadiths.
That Hadith from Imam Jawad is Dha'if(i.e., thare are some ones in the chain of the narrators of the tradithion who are laier or unreliable, or unknown)
Between the chain of the narrators of that tradition, there is محمد بن [ أحمد بن ] عبدالله الخالنجي( Mohammad ibn [Ahmad ibn] Abdullah al-Khalinji ) who is not even on one of the Rijal books(i.e., Books that are about the narrators of Hadiths and information about their reliability, believes, books, etc.). So he is unknown and then Hadith is Dha'if(untrustworthy).
Regardless of unreliability of the Sanad(i.e., the chain of the narrators) of the Hadith, the concept of the Hadith opposes to that authentic Hadith which are on my previous post.
So this Hadith is very Dha'if and untrustworthy.
(Reference: فقيه، محمد، السفیانی و علامات الظهور، ص102. al-Sufiyani wa Alamat al-Zohur by Mohammad Faqih, page 102)

The second Hadith is not what is on Bihar al-Anwar, vol.52, p.268, Hadith 157. The ff is the correct text and translation of that Hadith on Bihar al-Anwar, vol.52, p.268, Hadith 157:

أبي عبيدة الحذاء قال : سألت أبا جعفر (علیه السلام) عن هذا الامر متى يكون؟ قال : إن كنتم تؤملون أن يجيئكم من وجه فلا تنكرونه.​

Abi Ubaidah al-Hazzaa' said:' I ask from Aba Ja'far[ Imam Baqir] (peace be upon Him) about this matter( i.e., the rising of al-Mahdi al-Qa'im ) that when will it happen? ' Imam said:' If you hope that it comes to you in a way, so do not reject it '.(i.e., the time of the occurrence of the matter is not important. However, if you believe that it finally happen, so do not reject its occurrence)

Also, As regards to your question about what I mentioned that the Purpose of Bad'a has been to test, I post a reference from a Shia website:

What would you say about this?

"[Shakir 7:142]
And We appointed with Musa a time of thirty nights and completed them with ten (more), so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights

It can be read very clearly that Allah (swt) had initially made the covenant for thirty days/nights but later on 10 more nights were added to the covenant. This does not constitute a change in the knowledge of Allah (swt) rather there was a change in the knowledge of Musa (as). Allah (swt) already knew that Musa (as) was to be issued the Torah after forty days. The very fact has been stated in Holy Quran in the following manner:

“so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights”

That is the reason that in another verse, Allah (swt) stated:

[Yusufali 2:51]
And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

This verse revealed the reason why this was initially kept from Musa (as) the ten day delay in returning to his people was a test of their faith, those amongst them with weak beliefs came under the influence of Samri and started to worship the calf and in this way, and hence failed the test."

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/bada/in-quran.html

No.
The people of Prophet Moses(peace be upon Him) knew that he would come after forty days. Indeed, before Moses was going to go to the place of his appointment with Allah for 30 nights, he had said to them that the time of the appointment has changed to 40 nights. Read ff verses:

[Daryabadi, Holy Qur'an, 20:85 and 86]

85.He said: verily We have tempted thy people after thee, and the Samiri hath led them astray.

86.So Moses returned unto his people, indignant and sorrowful. He said: O my people! promised there not your Lord unto you an excellent promise! Lasted then the covenant too long for you*, or desired ye that the wrath from your Lord should alight on you, so that ye failed to keep my appointment?

*{ [Saheeh International 2:51]
And [recall] when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights. Then you took [for worship] the calf after him, while you were wrongdoers.
[Shakir 7:142]
And We appointed with Moses a time of thirty nights and completed them with ten (more), so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights}

If people of the Moses did not know that he would come after forty nights,
1.Moses didn't say them, 'Lasted then the covenant too long for you?'.
2.or people of the Moses should reply him:' Yes. Your covenant with God took so long '.
But Moses said that and his people did not reply him. So Moses' people knew that He would come after 40 nights.

Also 7:142 states that Moses was with Prophet Aaron and his people when the alteration occurred.(And We made an appointment with Moses for thirty nights and perfected them by [the addition of] ten; so the term of his Lord was completed as forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron, "Take my place among my people,set things right, and do not follow the way of the corrupters.")

Indeed, Bada' happened before the going of Moses to the place of his appointment with Allah(Sobhanahu Wa Ta'ala) and Moses said this alteration to his people.
(Reference: Tafsir Bayan al-Sa'adah, Tafsir al-Mizan, etc)

​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dear Mojtaba,

Thanks again for replying and taking the time to quote the sources.

Just to inform you, I never read your post in my thread before it was deleted . It was not my request to delete the Thread, but the staff on their own decision deleted my Thread.

If you don't mind, here are a few other questions:

1. According to Quran, the Qibla was changed from the Mosque to Kabbah, as a test. How would that be a test, if He had let them know before, He would change it? In Shia Islam, is this a kind of Bada? In some Shia sites, that is considered a Bada. If you refer to the Wikipedia, it has the references from Shia sources. Likewise, Ismail was selected as an Imam, but later this was abrogated and changed. What I get from you is that, not all the Shias agree if one of the purposes of Bada is to Test. What would you say about this?

2. There are Billions of Muslims in the world. If all those signs of Qaim miraculously appear the way Muslims understood from Hadithes, then How come, according to the Hadithes the initial companions of Qaim are only 313, and later 10000? Consider, for example if big sound is heard from sky as well as other miraculous signs. Wouldn't such things cause, 'suddenly' all people of the World, or at least millions of Shias to recognize and join? Then how come Imam Baqir (AS) points out to possibility of denial, and says if you expect it to happen, don't deny it? There are a number of other Hadithes that the Qaim will be denied or not recognized, correct?

3. If according to Shia understanding of Hadithes, the Qaim unites the Muslims or fills the earth with Justic in His life-time, Is this not dependent on how people response to Him? Could such fulfillment be postponed through 'Bada', to a later time, after life of Qaim (or his Ruling for 6 or 9 yrs) ? I think I read in Osuli-Kafi, Vol 1, God may delay or postpone certain events through Bada.

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba,

Thanks again for replying and taking the time to quote the sources.

Just to inform you, I never read your post in my thread before it was deleted . It was not my request to delete the Thread, but the staff on their own decision deleted my Thread.

Yes. I know, friend.

If you don't mind, here are a few other questions:

1. According to Quran, the Qibla was changed from the Mosque to Kabbah, as a test. How would that be a test, if He had let them know before, He would change it? In Shia Islam, is this a kind of Bada? In some Shia sites, that is considered a Bada'. If you refer to the Wikipedia, it has the references from Shia sources. Likewise, Ismail was selected as an Imam, but later this was abrogated and changed. What I get from you is that, not all the Shias agree if one of the purposes of Bada is to Test. What would you say about this?

Alteration of the Qibla is Naskh, not Bada'. Bada' is different from Naskh. Indeed, Naskh occurs for Tashri', but Bada' occurs for Takwin.

But about Isma'il, son of Imam Sadiq. Why you think that Isma'il was selected as an Imam, but later this was abrogated and changed ?
No, friend. Prophet Muhammad(sawaws) himself said the names of twelve Imams who was chosen by Allah Ta'ala. Imam Sadiq(a.s.), father of the Imam Musa(a.s.) and Isma'il knew that who is the Imam after himself. So he frequently said to his companions that Musa is Imam, not Isma'il. Read ff Hadiths on al-Kafi:

H 809, Ch. 71, h 12
Ahmad ibn Idris has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from ibn Muskan from Sulayman ibn Khalid who has said the following.
"Abu ‘Abdallah[ i.e., Imam sadiq ] (a.s.) one day called abu al-Hasan[ i.e., Imam Musa ] (a.s.) while we were in his presence and said to us, "You must take hold of this man. He, by Allah, will be your Master after me."

H 805, Ch. 71, h 8
Ahmad ibn Mihran has narrated from Muhammad ibn Ali from ‘Abdallah al-Qalla’ from Al-Mufadhal who has said the following.
"Abu ‘Abdallah[ Imam Sadiq ] (a.s.) spoke of abu al-Hasan[ i.e., Imam Musa ] (a.s.) and he was a young boy in those days. He said, "This is a child that no other child born to us has been of such a greater blessing to our followers than him." The Imam (a.s.) then said to me, "Do not be harsh with Isma‘il [ for this reason that he is not an Imam ]."

al-ghaybah by al-No'mani, page 324:
Ishagh ibn Ammar narrates:' My brother described his believes for Imam Sadiq and said: I testify that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger, and You(i.e., Imams) - then said the names of the Imams until Imam Sadiq and then said,- then Isma'il is after you '. Imam Sadiq said:' and about Isma'il, No( he is not the Imam after me ) '.

2. There are Billions of Muslims in the world. If all those signs of Qaim miraculously appear the way Muslims understood from Hadithes, then How come, according to the Hadithes the initial companions of Qaim are only 313, and later 10000? Consider, for example if big sound is heard from sky as well as other miraculous signs. Wouldn't such things cause, 'suddenly' all people of the World, or at least millions of Shias to recognize and join? Then how come Imam Baqir (AS) points out to possibility of denial, and says if you expect it to happen, don't deny it? There are a number of other Hadithes that the Qaim will be denied or not recognized, correct?

Hadith of Imam Baghir(a.s.) is about the length of the absence of Imam Mahdi(روحی و ارواح العالمین له الفداء).
Hadith:Abi Ubaidah al-Hazzaa' said:' I ask from Aba Ja'far[ Imam Baqir] (peace be upon Him) about this matter( i.e., the rising of al-Mahdi al-Qa'im ) that when will it happen? ' Imam said:' If you hope that it comes to you in a way, so do not reject it '.[i.e., It finally occurs. but if it takes too long to occur, so do not reject it ]

Indeed, Imam Baghir states that if the absence of Imam Mahdi takes too long, we should not reject the existence of Imam Mahdi and his rising. Here is a Hadith that clarifies that tradition:
Al-Mufadhal has said the following. "I heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say as herein below."
"Beware of publicity. By Allah, your Imam will disappear from the public sight for years of your time and you(i.e., Shias) will be sifted until the only thing that could be said about him would be, 'He is dead, killed, destroyed and no one would know in which of the valleys he may have traveled'. The eyes of the faithful ones will weep for him and you will be turned upside down just the ships face the rough seas and choppy waters. No one will survive this except those from whom Allah has taken a covenant, written faith in his hear and has supported him with an spirit from His self. You will come to know of twelve similar flags and one would not be able find which is which." The narrator has said, "I then wept and then said, 'What shall we do?'" The Imam (a.s.) then looked to the light on the deck and said, ‘O abu Abdallah (i.e., al-Mufadhal)! Do you see this light?" I reply,'Yes', Then Imam said,"By Allah, our case (Leadership with Divine Authority) is cetainly more clear than the light on the deck."
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, H 890, Ch. 80, h 3)

But about the number of the companions of al-Qaim(a.s.). According to Hadiths, 313 companions are the masters of other companions of Imam Mahdi and when He re-appears at Ka'ba, they(i.e., 313 companions ) would go to Mecca and Ka'ba suddenly.

Bihar al-Anwar, V. 52, P. 436
Imam Sadiq: ' Indeed, I see the al-Qa'im on the Manbar of Kufah mosque and his 313 - equal to the number of Muslim soldiers on al-Badr battle- [special] companions are around him, and they are the companions who are the masters and they are Allah's rulers on the earth... '.

Ilzam An Nasib, pg. 200
According to another tradition from the Holy Prophet (sawaws) these people will gather in one place with the blinking of an eye.([Holy Qur'an, 27:40] The one who had some knowledge of the Book said, ‘I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye.’ So when he [i.e., Solomon] saw it set near him, he said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord, to test me if I will give thanks or be ungrateful).
After that, other people joins, Ja'alanallahu Minhum.

Al-ghaybah by al-No'mani, page 282
According to a Hadith, Imam Baghir said to Jabir the sings of [ the re-appearance ] of the Qa'imon and then said:' So Allah would gather for him(i.e., Qa'im), his 313 companions who are men, and Allah would gather them for him like [ the gathering ] of the clouds of the autumn which quickly gather with each other, without an appointment. And O Jabir! they are those whom Allah has mentioned in His Book: '[Holy Qur'an, 2:148] Wherever you may be, Allah will bring you all together. Indeed Allah has power over all things '.... '.

You mentioned:' There are a number of other Hadithes that the Qaim will be denied or not recognized, correct?'.
Yes. According to Hadiths, some people who are sinner and transgressive will deny him. But al-Qa'im would battle with them and overcome.

3. If according to Shia understanding of Hadithes, the Qaim unites the Muslims or fills the earth with Justic in His life-time, Is this not dependent on how people response to Him? Could such fulfillment be postponed through 'Bada', to a later time, after life of Qaim (or his Ruling for 6 or 9 yrs) ? I think I read in Osuli-Kafi, Vol 1, God may delay or postpone certain events through Bada.

No. May Allah bless you. Bada' would not occur for that.
Al-Qaim unites the Muslims and others or fills the earth with Justic in His life-time and this is the promise of Allah(Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) and [Holy Qur'an, 3:9]Indeed Allah does not break His promise.

But why that is the promise of Allah?
Al-ghaybah by al-No'mani, page 240.
Imam Sadiq(a.s.) stated about the meaning of the verse of Holy Qur'an:'[24:55]Allah has promised those of you who have faith and do righteous deeds that He will surely make them successors in the earth, just as He made those who were before them successors, and He will surely establish for them their religion which He has approved for them, and that He will surely change their state to security after their fear, while they worship Me, not ascribing any partners to Me.'
"This verse sent down for al-Qa'am and his companions."

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes. I know, friend.


Alteration of the Qibla is Naskh, not Bada'. Bada' is different from Naskh. Indeed, Naskh occurs for Tashri', but Bada' occurs for Takwin.

But about Isma'il, son of Imam Sadiq. Why you think that Isma'il was selected as an Imam, but later this was abrogated and changed ?
No, friend. Prophet Muhammad(sawaws) himself said the names of twelve Imams who was chosen by Allah Ta'ala. Imam Sadiq(a.s.), father of the Imam Musa(a.s.) and Isma'il knew that who is the Imam after himself. So he frequently said to his companions that Musa is Imam, not Isma'il. Read ff Hadiths on al-Kafi:

H 809, Ch. 71, h 12
Ahmad ibn Idris has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from ibn Muskan from Sulayman ibn Khalid who has said the following.
"Abu ‘Abdallah[ i.e., Imam sadiq ] (a.s.) one day called abu al-Hasan[ i.e., Imam Musa ] (a.s.) while we were in his presence and said to us, "You must take hold of this man. He, by Allah, will be your Master after me."

H 805, Ch. 71, h 8
Ahmad ibn Mihran has narrated from Muhammad ibn Ali from ‘Abdallah al-Qalla’ from Al-Mufadhal who has said the following.
"Abu ‘Abdallah[ Imam Sadiq ] (a.s.) spoke of abu al-Hasan[ i.e., Imam Musa ] (a.s.) and he was a young boy in those days. He said, "This is a child that no other child born to us has been of such a greater blessing to our followers than him." The Imam (a.s.) then said to me, "Do not be harsh with Isma‘il [ for this reason that he is not an Imam ]."

al-ghaybah by al-No'mani, page 324:
Ishagh ibn Ammar narrates:' My brother described his believes for Imam Sadiq and said: I testify that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger, and You(i.e., Imams) - then said the names of the Imams until Imam Sadiq and then said,- then Isma'il is after you '. Imam Sadiq said:' and about Isma'il, No( he is not the Imam after me ) '.


Hadith of Imam Baghir(a.s.) is about the length of the absence of Imam Mahdi(روحی و ارواح العالمین له الفداء).
Hadith:Abi Ubaidah al-Hazzaa' said:' I ask from Aba Ja'far[ Imam Baqir] (peace be upon Him) about this matter( i.e., the rising of al-Mahdi al-Qa'im ) that when will it happen? ' Imam said:' If you hope that it comes to you in a way, so do not reject it '.[i.e., It finally occurs. but if it takes too long to occur, so do not reject it ]

Indeed, Imam Baghir states that if the absence of Imam Mahdi takes too long, we should not reject the existence of Imam Mahdi and his rising. Here is a Hadith that clarifies that tradition:
Al-Mufadhal has said the following. "I heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say as herein below."
"Beware of publicity. By Allah, your Imam will disappear from the public sight for years of your time and you(i.e., Shias) will be sifted until the only thing that could be said about him would be, 'He is dead, killed, destroyed and no one would know in which of the valleys he may have traveled'. The eyes of the faithful ones will weep for him and you will be turned upside down just the ships face the rough seas and choppy waters. No one will survive this except those from whom Allah has taken a covenant, written faith in his hear and has supported him with an spirit from His self. You will come to know of twelve similar flags and one would not be able find which is which." The narrator has said, "I then wept and then said, 'What shall we do?'" The Imam (a.s.) then looked to the light on the deck and said, ‘O abu Abdallah (i.e., al-Mufadhal)! Do you see this light?" I reply,'Yes', Then Imam said,"By Allah, our case (Leadership with Divine Authority) is cetainly more clear than the light on the deck."
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, H 890, Ch. 80, h 3)

But about the number of the companions of al-Qaim(a.s.). According to Hadiths, 313 companions are the masters of other companions of Imam Mahdi and when He re-appears at Ka'ba, they(i.e., 313 companions ) would go to Mecca and Ka'ba suddenly.

Bihar al-Anwar, V. 52, P. 436
Imam Sadiq: ' Indeed, I see the al-Qa'im on the Manbar of Kufah mosque and his 313 - equal to the number of Muslim soldiers on al-Badr battle- [special] companions are around him, and they are the companions who are the masters and they are Allah's rulers on the earth... '.

Ilzam An Nasib, pg. 200
According to another tradition from the Holy Prophet (sawaws) these people will gather in one place with the blinking of an eye.([Holy Qur'an, 27:40] The one who had some knowledge of the Book said, ‘I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye.’ So when he [i.e., Solomon] saw it set near him, he said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord, to test me if I will give thanks or be ungrateful).
After that, other people joins, Ja'alanallahu Minhum.

Al-ghaybah by al-No'mani, page 282
According to a Hadith, Imam Baghir said to Jabir the sings of [ the re-appearance ] of the Qa'imon and then said:' So Allah would gather for him(i.e., Qa'im), his 313 companions who are men, and Allah would gather them for him like [ the gathering ] of the clouds of the autumn which quickly gather with each other, without an appointment. And O Jabir! they are those whom Allah has mentioned in His Book: '[Holy Qur'an, 2:148] Wherever you may be, Allah will bring you all together. Indeed Allah has power over all things '.... '.

You mentioned:' There are a number of other Hadithes that the Qaim will be denied or not recognized, correct?'.
Yes. According to Hadiths, some people who are sinner and transgressive will deny him. But al-Qa'im would battle with them and overcome.


No. May Allah bless you. Bada' would not occur for that.
Al-Qaim unites the Muslims and others or fills the earth with Justic in His life-time and this is the promise of Allah(Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) and [Holy Qur'an, 3:9]Indeed Allah does not break His promise.

But why that is the promise of Allah?
Al-ghaybah by al-No'mani, page 240.
Imam Sadiq(a.s.) stated about the meaning of the verse of Holy Qur'an:'[24:55]Allah has promised those of you who have faith and do righteous deeds that He will surely make them successors in the earth, just as He made those who were before them successors, and He will surely establish for them their religion which He has approved for them, and that He will surely change their state to security after their fear, while they worship Me, not ascribing any partners to Me.'
"This verse sent down for al-Qa'am and his companions."

Thank you friend for your replies. Here are a few more questions. Whenever you got tired of my questions, please let me know


1. I understand that the coming of Qaim is a Promise. it is also a Promise that the unity and Justice to be established is a mission of the Qaim and return of Christ which would be accomplished. But Is there any Hadith or Aye of Quran that says, it is a Promise that these Goals and Missions are to be achieved during the (6 or 9 years) life-time / Ruling of the Qaim? Because according to the Hadithes there are 5 definitive events:

Imam al-Sadiq (AS) said, "There are five definite signs before the rising of al-Qaim, which are: (the rising of) al-Yamani and al-Sufyani, the (heavenly) cry/call (by Gabriel which will be heard all over the world), the murder of Nafs al-Zakiyya, and the sink (of the Sufyani army) into (the land of) al-Baydaa (located between Mecca and Medina)."

As you mentioned, only the definitive signs is very unlikely to become Bada, but others may become Bada, correct? Therefore, In the list of 5 signs, it is not said that, the unity and justice on the whole earth is also a definitive sign to occur during life of Qaim. So, my question is, are there other Hadithes that says these missions are also definitive to occur during His life or it is a belief based on understanding of the Scholars (Foqaha)?


2. Could God reveal New Laws and Teachings through Qaim and also Mansookh (delete) any of the Laws of Quran which can also be a Test, the same way that He changed Qiblah for testing? Or these kind of Tests were only for People of the past? As you know there is a Hadith that Qaim comes with a new Law (Sharia), and Judgement. You know that There is also a Hadith that the revelation of Qaim is like Mary (Mother of Jesus). Is that a weak Hadith or Strong Hadith, and how can we say it is weak or strong? Mary did not have a New Law or Judgement so how can she be compared with qaim? Even if it is a strong Hadith, can this sign of Qaim change though Bada?

3. It is also said that Islam is complete, but also completion of the favor is conditional upon the individual's success in obeying and fearing God:
"And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your face towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course."
- Qur'an 2:150

So, if Muslims do not follow it, the way they were supposed to, can God decide that they need more favour?

I can post other questions about Qaim, but they are not so much related to Bada, so God Willing, I will make a new thread and post them there.

 

[mojtaba]

Thank you friend for your replies. Here are a few more questions. Whenever you got tired of my questions, please let me know

1. I understand that the coming of Qaim is a Promise. it is also a Promise that the unity and Justice to be established is a mission of the Qaim and return of Christ which would be accomplished. But Is there any Hadith or Aye of Quran that says, it is a Promise that these Goals and Missions are to be achieved during the (6 or 9 years) life-time / Ruling of the Qaim? Because according to the Hadithes there are 5 definitive events:

Imam al-Sadiq (AS) said, "There are five definite signs before the rising of al-Qaim, which are: (the rising of) al-Yamani and al-Sufyani, the (heavenly) cry/call (by Gabriel which will be heard all over the world), the murder of Nafs al-Zakiyya, and the sink (of the Sufyani army) into (the land of) al-Baydaa (located between Mecca and Medina)."

As you mentioned, only the definitive signs is very unlikely to become Bada, but others may become Bada, correct? Therefore, In the list of 5 signs, it is not said that, the unity and justice on the whole earth is also a definitive sign to occur during life of Qaim. So, my question is, are there other Hadithes that says these missions are also definitive to occur during His life or it is a belief based on understanding of the Scholars (Foqaha)?

You're welcome.

Friend, 'certain signs' are which will occur before the re-appearance. You can not compare them with what will occur after the re-appearance. That Hadith of Imam Sadiq is about the 'certain signs', which will occur before the re-appearance, and it does not state any thing about the events which occur after the re-appearance.

But about the events which are after the re-appearance, I said you a Hadith from Imam Sadiq on my previous post, didn't I?;

Imam Sadiq(a.s.) stated about the meaning of the verse of Holy Qur'an [24:55](Allah has promised those of you who have faith and do righteous deeds that He will surely make them successors in the earth, just as He made those who were before them successors, and He will surely establish for them their religion which He has approved for them, and that He will surely change their state to security after their fear, while they worship Me, not ascribing any partners to Me.): " This verse sent down for al-Qa'im and his companions."
(Source: Al-Ghaybah by al-No'mani, page 240)

So, Allah Ta'ala has promised that He will surly establish true Islam (which is indeed unity between All humans, Justice, battling with tyranny, Love, etc.) during the time of the Ruling of al-Qa'im(a.s.). Indeed, Allah has promised that He will surly establish true Islam by Imam Mahdi(Hurry Allah Almighty his Re-appearance) and his companions.

2. Could God reveal New Laws and Teachings through Qaim and also Mansookh (delete) any of the Laws of Quran which can also be a Test, the same way that He changed Qiblah for testing? Or these kind of Tests were only for People of the past? As you know there is a Hadith that Qaim comes with a new Law (Sharia), and Judgement. You know that There is also a Hadith that the revelation of Qaim is like Mary (Mother of Jesus). Is that a weak Hadith or Strong Hadith, and how can we say it is weak or strong? Mary did not have a New Law or Judgement so how can she be compared with qaim? Even if it is a strong Hadith, can this sign of Qaim change though Bada?

For your information, Mansookh means abrogated, not delete (or deleted).
No. True Islam and its laws(Shari'ah) is complete and also the last religion from Allah. Prophet Muhammad(sawaws) is the last Prophet whom Torah and Injil(Gospel), both of them said about him that would come in future. Because the features of the last Prophet, i.e. Muhammad(sawaws), was on Torah and Injil, a verse of Holy Qur'an which is after the verses of the alteration of the Qiblah, states:
[2:146]Those whom We have given the Book(i.e., Jews and Christians) recognize him(i.e., Prophet Muhammad) just as they recognize their sons( because his features are on their Books ), but a part of them indeed conceal the truth while they know.

Also Qur'an says that Muhammad is the last Prophet:
[33:40]Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the last of the all prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing.

So Torah, Injil and Qur'an state that there is no Prophet and then new religion after Prophet Muhammad.

Also Prophet Muhammad said on Ghadir Sermon(i.e., one of his last sermons on which he said about 12 Imams of Islamic Ummah) that things he(sawaws) mentioned as forbidden(i.e., Harams) and things he(sawaws) mentioned as permissible(i.e., Halals)[i.e., Shari'ah] will remain so until the Day of Judgment.(See Ghadir Sermon)

Also the Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.&h.f.) said:
"The Qa'im( Imam Mahdi ) is from my Progeny (sons). His name is my name. And his Kunniyat (agnomen) is my agnomen. And his appearance is (like) my appearance. And his behavior is (like) my behavior. He will establish among the people my practice and my shari'ah. And he will call them towards the book of his Lord, the High and the Mighty. One who obeys him has obeyed me. And one who denies his 'Ghaibat' has denied me."
(Source: Kamaaluddin wa Tamamul Ni'mah by Sheykh al-Sadoogh, Vol.2, Pg.411)

Also 12 Imams have said that there will never come a new book and religion after Prophet Muhammad:
Ayyub ibn al-Hurr narrates:
Imam Sadiq said: "Allah, Majestic is Whose mention, ended with your prophet the (coming of) the prophets. Thus, there will never come any prophet after him. With your book(i.e., Qur'an) He ended sending of (heavenly) books. Thus, there will never come other heavenly books.
(Source: al-Kafi, H 704, Ch. 53, h 3)

Also Qur'an says that one of the reasons of the alteration of Qiblah was to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e. disobey the Messenger)(See 2:143). So Naskh only occurred during the life-time of Prophet Muhammad and after his demise, Naskh would never occur.

So about your saying:

As you know there is a Hadith that Qaim comes with a new Law (Sharia), and Judgement.

Imam Ali: “Upon Imam Mahdi’s reappearance, he will direct desires towards (the path of) guidance at a time when people have turned guidance towards desires, and he will draw their attention to the direction of the Qur’an while the people try to interpret the Qur'an according to their own views. He also punishes all those agents who did evil for their wrongdoing. He will show you the just way of behavior and revive the Qur’an and Sunnah(i.e., Prophet’s acts ) which are neglected by the people.”‌ [3]
(Source: Nahjul Balaghah, Sermon 138)

This Hadith of Imam Ali(a.s.) clearly explains the true meaning of those Hadiths that say that al-Qa'im comes with a new Law (Sharia), and Judgement. Indeed, before the re-appearance of al-Qa'im(a.s.), people(e.g., ISIL) turn guidance towards desires and interpret the Qur'an according to their own views. So they change the true Islam and they think and also show to world that Qur'an and Sunnah is what they imagine. But unfortunately they do not know that they indeed have neglected the true Qur’an and Sunnah.

But After all of those distortions on the true Islam, Imam Mahdi al-Qa'im comes with new( i.e., true ) interpretation of Book of Allah and new( i.e., true) Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad [which both of them together make the Laws/Shari'ah of Islam]. Indeed, Imam Mahdi will come with new(i.e., true) Islam after the era that many distortions have been created on it. So he will revive the Qur’an and Sunnah(i.e., Prophet’s acts) which are neglected by the people.

Imam Baqir (A.S) says: “during Imam Mahdi’s era, people will learn knowledge and wisdom to the extent that a housewife at home will be able to judge freely on the basis of the Holy Prophet’s acts and the Qur’an.”‌
(Source: al-Ghaybah by al-No'mani, P. 238)

3. It is also said that Islam is complete, but also completion of the favor is conditional upon the individual's success in obeying and fearing God:
"And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your face towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course."
- Qur'an 2:150

So, if Muslims do not follow it, the way they were supposed to, can God decide that they need more favour?

I can post other questions about Qaim, but they are not so much related to Bada, so God Willing, I will make a new thread and post them there.

Allah Ta'ala completed His favour on Muslims in the Ghadir Khom, when He ordered the Prophet that says that Imam Ali and some of his descendants are the 12 infallible Imams of Ummah and the Caliphs(i.e., Successors ) after the Prophet. See ff verse:

[5:3]Today the faithless have despaired of your religion. So do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My favour upon you, and I have approved Islam as your religion.

See: MUTIWATIR AND AUTHENTIC HADITH OF GHADIR

Good Luck!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks dear friend.

Your reply brings just some more questions:

1. You mentioned that God completed His favour upon Muslims, and therefor no need for another favour. In Quran there are verses that, God also had completed His favour upon the people of the past before Islam, but yet, He again completed His favour to the people that came in later generations. How do we know this would not be the case for Muslims as well? Specially there are many Hadithes that people of Islam follow in the footsteps of previous people, correct?

2. There are many muslim traditions in Bihar, that the Muslims will be changed by another people by God. How would that take place? How did previous people change with another people.

3. I found this Tradition in Bihar-alAnvar

11- Ghaibat Tusi: It is narrated from Fadhl from Hasan bin Mahbub from Abu Hamza Thumali that he said:
“I asked Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.): O son of Allah’s Messenger, Amirul Momineen (a.s.) used to say: There will be sedition till 70 A.H. and after that there will be peace and prosperity; but 70 A.H. has passed and we are still in problems?”
Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said: “O Thabit, it was initially fixed as 70 A.H. but meanwhile Imam Husain (a.s.) was martyred and the Almighty Allah postponed it to 140 A.H. When we informed you about it, you publicized it and the Almighty Allah postponed it further and even we don’t know about the definite time.”
ﻳَﻤْﺤُﻮ ﺍﻟﻠﹼﻪُ ﻣَﺎ ﻳَﺸَﺎﺀ ﻭَﻳُﺜﹾﺒﹺﺖُ ﻭَﻋِﻨﺪَﻩُﺃﹸﻡﱡ ﺍﻟﹾﻜِﺘَﺎﺏﹺ
“Allah makes to pass away and establishes what He pleases, and with Him is the basis of the Book.” (Surah Raad 13:39)

According to the above tradition, initially by year 70, the seditions was to go away, but Allah postponed to future time, because, Imam Hossain (AS) was marthyrd.
If we follow simillar logic, if Qaim becomes Marthyrd, then the Promise of unity and peace may be posponed, correct? God was on the side of Imam Hossain, yet He became marthyrd, so, why the Qaim may not be Marthyrd? According to traditions He only has 313 companions, and He rules for a short term (7 or 9).

4. According to Traditions, Quran Sharia remain Lawful till Day of Ressurection.
It is also recorded that Only the Qaim can explain the Works of Prophet and Quran interpretation.
Quran states that some of its verses are Mutishabihat (symbolic, figurative). How do we know that the verses of Day of ressurection are to be taken literal or as Mutishabih? Only Qaim can tell us, correct? In the holy books and hadithes, bringing life to the dead has often interpreted as when a new Guidence comes from God, the Dead (ignorent) will find a new Life (Ressurects). How do we know, this was not intended by Day of Ressurection? Did the Imams say, the verses of Quran regarding the Day of Ressurection are not Mutishabihat or this belief comes from Muslim Leaders?

Thanks again, I am hoping others participate as well. I don't want to make Mojtaba tired with keep asking questions.

 

[mojtaba]

Thanks dear friend.

Your reply brings just some more questions:

1. You mentioned that God completed His favour upon Muslims, and therefor no need for another favour. In Quran there are verses that, God also had completed His favour upon the people of the past before Islam, but yet, He again completed His favour to the people that came in later generations. How do we know this would not be the case for Muslims as well? Specially there are many Hadithes that people of Islam follow in the footsteps of previous people, correct?

Hi.

1.You mentioned:' You mentioned that God completed His favour upon Muslims, and therefor no need for another favour '.

God completed His favour upon Muslims, and therefore there will not a Greater Favour, because that Favour is the greatest one.

2.You mentioned: ' In Quran there are verses that, God also had completed His favour upon the people of the past before Islam, but yet, He again completed His favour to the people that came in later generations '.

There is not any verse in Holy Qur'an saying, God also had completed His favour upon the people of the past before Islam.
If you mean 12:6([ Jacob said to his son, Joseph ]'That is how your Lord will choose you, and teach you the interpretation of dreams, and complete His favour upon you and upon the house of Jacob, just as He completed it earlier for your fathers, Abraham and Isaac. Your Lord is indeed all-knowing and all-wise.’) this verse is about the house of Jacob(a.s.), not his people.

2. There are many muslim traditions in Bihar, that the Muslims will be changed by another people by God. How would that take place? How did previous people change with another people.

Source?

3. I found this Tradition in Bihar-alAnvar

11- Ghaibat Tusi: It is narrated from Fadhl from Hasan bin Mahbub from Abu Hamza Thumali that he said:
“I asked Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.): O son of Allah’s Messenger, Amirul Momineen (a.s.) used to say: There will be sedition till 70 A.H. and after that there will be peace and prosperity; but 70 A.H. has passed and we are still in problems?”
Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said: “O Thabit, it was initially fixed as 70 A.H. but meanwhile Imam Husain (a.s.) was martyred and the Almighty Allah postponed it to 140 A.H. When we informed you about it, you publicized it and the Almighty Allah postponed it further and even we don’t know about the definite time.”
ﻳَﻤْﺤُﻮ ﺍﻟﻠﹼﻪُ ﻣَﺎ ﻳَﺸَﺎﺀ ﻭَﻳُﺜﹾﺒﹺﺖُ ﻭَﻋِﻨﺪَﻩُﺃﹸﻡﱡ ﺍﻟﹾﻜِﺘَﺎﺏﹺ
“Allah makes to pass away and establishes what He pleases, and with Him is the basis of the Book.” (Surah Raad 13:39)

According to the above tradition, initially by year 70, the seditions was to go away, but Allah postponed to future time, because, Imam Hossain (AS) was marthyrd.
If we follow simillar logic, if Qaim becomes Marthyrd, then the Promise of unity and peace may be posponed, correct? God was on the side of Imam Hossain, yet He became marthyrd, so, why the Qaim may not be Marthyrd? According to traditions He only has 313 companions, and He rules for a short term (7 or 9).

1.Firstly it should be said that 'A.H.' is not in Hadith.

2.However, this Hadith is weak. Because according to Rijal books, Abu Hamza Thumali( Narrator of hadith from Imam Baghr) passed away at 150 A.H., and Hasan bin Mahbub( Narrator of hadith to Abu Hamza Thumali ) passed away when he was 75 years old(224 A.H.). So when Abu Hamza Thumali passed away, Hasan bin Mahbub was 1 year old!. So Sanad(i.e., chain of narrators of tradition) is weak.
(references: Muntakhabul 'Athar by Lotfullah Golpaygani, P. 224/ Mo'jam Rijal al-hadith by Khu'i, V. 6, P. 97,98 and V. 4, P. 294 )
So we can not talk about this tradition.

3.You mentioned:' According to traditions He only has 313 companions '.
No. 313 companions are the masters of other companions of Imam Mahdi(Bihar al-Anwar, V. 52, P. 436).

4. According to Traditions, Quran Sharia remain Lawful till Day of Resurrection.
It is also recorded that Only the Qaim can explain the Works of Prophet and Quran interpretation.
Quran states that some of its verses are Mutishabihat (symbolic, figurative). How do we know that the verses of Day of Resurrection are to be taken literal or as Mutishabih? Only Qaim can tell us, correct? In the holy books and hadithes, bringing life to the dead has often interpreted as when a new Guidance comes from God, the Dead (ignorant) will find a new Life (Resurrects). How do we know, this was not intended by Day of Resurrection? Did the Imams say, the verses of Quran regarding the Day of Resurrection are not Mutishabihat or this belief comes from Muslim Leaders?
Thanks again, I am hoping others participate as well. I don't want to make Mojtaba tired with keep asking questions.

You asked: 'Only Qaim can tell us, correct?'
No. This is the false belief of Akhbaries.

If we consider that false belief true, so read ff Hadith that says that Day of Resurrection means forever:

al-Kafi by Koleyni, H 174, Ch. 19, h 19
Zurarah narrates:
"I asked Imam Sadiq (a.s.) about lawful(Halal) and unlawful(Haram) matters. So he(a.s.) replied: "Whatever Prophet (sawaws) has made lawful will remain lawful forever, up to the Day of Judgment and whatever he has made unlawful will remain unlawful forever, up to the Day of Judgment. There will be no one other than him and there will come no one other than him." He(a.s.) also said: 'Imam Ali has said, ‘No one has established any innovations without abandoning an established noble tradition.' "

 

[mojtaba]

I modify this part of my post:

2.However, this Hadith is weak. Because according to Rijal books, Abu Hamza Thumali( Narrator of hadith from Imam Baghr) passed away at 150 A.H., and Hasan bin Mahbub( Narrator of hadith to Abu Hamza Thumali ) passed away when he was 75 years old(224 A.H.). So when Abu Hamza Thumali passed away, Hasan bin Mahbub was 1 year old!. So Sanad(i.e., chain of narrators of tradition) is weak.
(references: Muntakhabul 'Athar by Lotfullah Golpaygani, P. 224/ Mo'jam Rijal al-hadith by Khu'i, V. 6, P. 97,98 and V. 4, P. 294 )
So we can not talk about this tradition.

2.However, this Hadith is weak. Because according to Rijal books, Abu Hamza Thumali( the narrator of Hadith from Imam Baghir) passed away at 150 A.H., and Hasan ibn Mahbub( the narrator of Hadith from Abu Hamza Thumali ) passed away when he was 75 years old(224 A.H.). So when Abu Hamza Thumali passed away, Hasan ibn Mahbub( the narrator of Hadith from Abu Hamza Thumali ) was 1 year old!. So Sanad(i.e., the chain of the narrators of the tradition) is weak.
(references: Muntakhabul 'Athar by Lotfullah Golpaygani, P. 224/ Mo'jam Rijal al-hadith by Khu'i, V. 6, P. 97,98 and V. 4, P. 294 )
So we can not talk about this tradition.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dear Mojtaba,

Thank you for your reply.

You have said:
"If we consider that false belief true, so read ff Hadith that says that Day of Resurrection means forever"

When I read the Hadith, it says "forever, up to the Day of Judgment". I think either something is forever, or up to......But I understand, you mean Day of Judgment means forever?
But anyways, now this question comes:

In the Jewish Text it was said:

"Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever." Exodus 31:16

So, if they were supposed to keep the Sabbath as a covenant forever, why Allah in Quran did not require them to keep it any longer??
Do you believe Badaa is the answer? Can God through Badaa, abrogates a previous covenant that was to last forever, and bring a new one?

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba,
Thank you for your reply.

You have said:
"If we consider that false belief true, so read ff Hadith that says that Day of Resurrection means forever"

When I read the Hadith, it says "forever, up to the Day of Judgment". I think either something is forever, or up to......But I understand, you mean Day of Judgment means forever?

Hadith:
Zaurarah said:" I ask from Imam Sadiq about Halal and Haram, Imam then said:
'Whatever Prophet (sawaws) has made lawful will remain lawful forever up to the Day of Judgment and whatever he has made unlawful will remain unlawful forever up to the Day of Judgment. There will be no one other than him and there will come no one other than him.' "

Dear InvestigateTruth, your understanding is not correct. The Hadith never means what you think. If its english translation could means this false understanding, but Arabic text of the Hadith couldn't:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى بْنِ عُبَيْدٍ ، عَنْ يُونُسَ ، عَنْ حَرِيزٍ ، عَنْ زُرَارَةَ ، قَالَ : "سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللهِ عليه‌السلام عَنِ الْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ ، فَقَالَ : « حَلَالُ مُحَمَّدٍ حَلَالٌ أَبَداً إِلى‌
"« يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ، وَحَرَامُهُ حَرَامٌ أَبَداً إِلى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ، لَايَكُونُ غَيْرُهُ وَلَا يَجِي‌ءُ غَيْرُهُ ». وَقَالَ : « قَالَ عَلِيٌّ عليه‌السلام : مَا أَحَدٌ ابْتَدَع بدْعَةً إِلاَّ تَرَكَ بِهَا سُنَّةً​

(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, vol. 1, pg. 147)

You can ask from an Arab to say you that this Hadith never means what you mentioned(i.e., I think either something is forever, or up to......).

Indeed, according to the Hadith, Zurarah asks from Imam Sadiq about what Prophet Muhammad (sawaws) has made lawful(Halal of Muhammad) and also what he has made unlawful(Haram of Muhammad) with Allah's leave. So Imam Sadiq replies that Halal and Haram of Muhammad(sawaws) is Halal(lawful) and Haram(unlawful), forever up to the Day of Judgment.
So according to the Hadith, Day of Judgment means forever.

But anyway, there is not ' or ' in english translation of the Hadith and it is what you have added to the translation.

But anyways, now this question comes:

In the Jewish Text it was said:

"Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever." Exodus 31:16

So, if they were supposed to keep the Sabbath as a covenant forever, why Allah in Quran did not require them to keep it any longer??
Do you believe Badaa is the answer? Can God through Badaa, abrogates a previous covenant that was to last forever, and bring a new one?

You can not talk with me by Jewish Text. Beceuse of these verses of Holy Quran: Chapter 2
79.So woe to them(i.e., Jewish scholars ) who write the Book with their hands and then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may sell it for a paltry gain. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn!
80. And they(i.e., Jewsh) say, ‘The Fire shall not touch us except for a number of days.’ Say, ‘Have you taken a promise from Allah? If so, Allah will never break His promise. Do you ascribe to Allah what you do not know?’
....83.[and mention] When We took a pledge from the Children of Israel(i.e., Jewsh), [saying]: ‘Worship no one but Allah.....

[3:78]
There is a group of them who alter their voice while reading out a text [that they have themselves authored], so that you may suppose it to be from the Book, though it is not from the Book, and they say, ‘It is from Allah,’ though it is not from Allah, and they attribute lies to Allah, and they know [it].

For example, the next verse of the verse that you mentioned is:
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exodus 31:17
This is one of the falsifications on the original Torah. Because, God never becomes tired or bored to rest.

Holy Qur'an, 50:38
Certainly We created the heavens and the earth, and whatever is between them, in six days, and any fatigue did not touch Us.

So we can not rely on their texts.