Bad move by House Republicans

[kashmir]

Why do we need a Christian movement? We are a secular nation, we were not founded upon Christian principles, and the last thing we need are more Christian nuts who are trying to make their own personal interpretation of the Bible the law of the land. It's bad enough as it is with "Christian" politicians in America saying the things they do about atheists, homosexuals, Muslims, and other groups they don't like.

secular nation?
ever hear of blue laws?

we have a separation of church and state but we are from from being secular.

A quick google, seems like this is right on the money
Is America a Secular Nation?

and what is so wrong with following morality?
Its a heck of a lot better than not

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Why do we need a Christian movement? We are a secular nation, we were not founded upon Christian principles, and the last thing we need are more Christian nuts who are trying to make their own personal interpretation of the Bible the law of the land. It's bad enough as it is with "Christian" politicians in America saying the things they do about atheists, homosexuals, Muslims, and other groups they don't like.

Because the worker overwhelmingly self-identifies as Christian and values Christian principles. A Christian Socialist movement would address both the Christian values of the worker and her/his political and economic reality. Other secular nations have a Christian Socialist movement and they are doing just fine.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

and what is so wrong with following morality?
Its a heck of a lot better than not

Who ever said you need a religion or book to have morality? How tight must someone grip your hand and lead you around if an ancient book is how you learn morality?
Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

And of course Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion.

Because the worker overwhelmingly self-identifies as Christian and values Christian principles. A Christian Socialist movement would address both the Christian values of the worker and her/his political and economic reality. Other secular nations have a Christian Socialist movement and they are doing just fine.

But not all Christians share the same "Christian" values. Or what of 20-30% of the nation that does not identify as Christian? Do we tell them tough luck because they are not a part of the majority? The America I know was established to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority, and in this case it would be a Christian majority, some of which would criminalize my very existence. And what "Christian" values do we go by? Southern Baptist? Methodist? Catholic? Episcopalian? Mormon? Who gets to be the grand victor and decide what brand of Christianity everyone else will be subjected to?

 

[McBell]

Because the worker overwhelmingly self-identifies as Christian and values Christian principles. A Christian Socialist movement would address both the Christian values of the worker and her/his political and economic reality. Other secular nations have a Christian Socialist movement and they are doing just fine.

The main problem here is the fact that "Christian" is an umbrella term that covers far to many belief systems that contradict.

 

[McBell]

and what is so wrong with following morality?

Good question.
Why don't you ask the Christians why they don't?

 

[kashmir]

Ummm, when we vote, we vote with our moral values, and where do those come from?

But to be frank, abortion isn't legal because the people want it legal.
Same reason that we don't sell alcohol on sundays.
Same reason why cigarettes are legal.
Same reason why big businesses pollute the air and just pay huge fines instead of fixing the problems.

exact same reason why if min wage goes up, so does the prices...greed of the big business

Money talks...

Mcdonalds makes a fortune and likes the fact they can pay kids wages, lord forbid they loose a dime of profits.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

The main problem here is the fact that "Christian" is an umbrella term that covers far to many belief systems that contradict.

There are common core Christian values and principles that were taught by Jesus which are economic and political in nature. Most Christians hold the values and principles taught by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount to be sacred.

The worker has every right to express his/her values and principles in the political arena.

 

[kashmir]

There are common core Christian values and principles that were taught by Jesus which are economic and political in nature. Most Christians hold the values and principles taught by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount to be sacred.

The worker has every right to express his/her values and principles in the political arena.

No they dont... :sarcastic

In fact, there should be a porn shop right next to every church in america, lets show them who is boss and has higher morals

 

[McBell]

There are common core Christian values and principles that were taught by Jesus which are economic and political in nature. Most Christians hold the values and principles taught by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount to be sacred.

Ignoring the differences does not make the differences go away.
And the differences between the various Christians sects are enough to wreck havoc.

The worker has every right to express his/her values and principles in the political arena.

I never implied otherwise.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ummm, when we vote, we vote with our moral values, and where do those come from?
But to be frank, abortion isn't legal because the people want it legal.
Same reason that we don't sell alcohol on sundays.
Same reason why cigarettes are legal.
Same reason why big businesses pollute the air and just pay huge fines instead of fixing the problems.
exact same reason why if min wage goes up, so does the prices...greed of the big business
Money talks...
Mcdonalds makes a fortune and likes the fact they can pay kids wages, lord forbid they loose a dime of profits.

I'm not quite sure I follow that. I ask why do you need a book for morals, and you give laws that many people consider immoral, such as the slap-on-the-wrist penalty faced by companies who dump illegally.
As for my morals, I need only one; give others the basic dignity and respect any human being deserves, unless they have really, really, really, REALLY messed up and deserve otherwise. And even then I am more likely to just simply smile and let the consequences of their actions be their undoing rather than take an active role, unless it's needed.

There are common core Christian values and principles that were taught by Jesus which are economic and political in nature. Most Christians hold the values and principles taught by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount to be sacred.

The worker has every right to express his/her values and principles in the political arena.

The core economic values of Jesus are to sell all of your material possessions and give the money to the poor. Americans love Capitalism, but Jesus' message is very anti-Capitalist. He told us to love and care for the poor, but many people who claim to follow Jesus look at the poor like they are a group of lazy freeloaders. And we are to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, so no more tax loop holes, deductions, over seas accounts, businesses with a P.O. box office in some small island, and my how so many things would have to change if we were to enact economic policy that even came close to resembling what Jesus taught.
And politicians can express religious views though, however, it becomes unconstitutional when their religious views turn into religious laws that infringe on my right to be free from religious dogma.
And what of Jesus' message of love thy neighbor and judge not? Many Christians are very eager to judge homosexuals and treat them like second-class or worse citizens. Many Christians prove themselves to be very nasty people when they interact with Muslims. And if I had just a nickel for every Christian I've met that thinks Atheists and Agnostics are immoral because they have no book to tell them what to do I would be a very rich woman indeed.
And what of the Christians who focus on Paul? There are indeed many Christians that would not stand for stoning gays or adulterers, and many simply would welcome the backward steps required on not allowing a woman to lead a church.

 

[kashmir]

I'm not quite sure I follow that. I ask why do you need a book for morals, and you give laws that many people consider immoral, such as the slap-on-the-wrist penalty faced by companies who dump illegally.
As for my morals, I need only one; give others the basic dignity and respect any human being deserves, unless they have really, really, really, REALLY messed up and deserve otherwise. And even then I am more likely to just simply smile and let the consequences of their actions be their undoing rather than take an active role, unless it's needed.

Did I say they need the book for morals?
They have their world view and that is enough.

The core economic values of Jesus are to sell all of your material possessions and give the money to the poor. Americans love Capitalism, but Jesus' message is very anti-Capitalist. He told us to love and care for the poor, but many people who claim to follow Jesus look at the poor like they are a group of lazy freeloaders. And we are to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, so no more tax loop holes, deductions, over seas accounts, businesses with a P.O. box office in some small island, and my how so many things would have to change if we were to enact economic policy that even came close to resembling what Jesus taught.
And politicians can express religious views though, however, it becomes unconstitutional when their religious views turn into religious laws that infringe on my right to be free from religious dogma.
And what of Jesus' message of love thy neighbor and judge not? Many Christians are very eager to judge homosexuals and treat them like second-class or worse citizens. Many Christians prove themselves to be very nasty people when they interact with Muslims. And if I had just a nickel for every Christian I've met that thinks Atheists and Agnostics are immoral because they have no book to tell them what to do I would be a very rich woman indeed.
And what of the Christians who focus on Paul? There are indeed many Christians that would not stand for stoning gays or adulterers, and many simply would welcome the backward steps required on not allowing a woman to lead a church.

No clue how that even matters today, lets focus on today ok?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

The core economic values of Jesus are to sell all of your material possessions and give the money to the poor. Americans love Capitalism, but Jesus' message is very anti-Capitalist. He told us to love and care for the poor, but many people who claim to follow Jesus look at the poor like they are a group of lazy freeloaders. And we are to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, so no more tax loop holes, deductions, over seas accounts, businesses with a P.O. box office in some small island, and my how so many things would have to change if we were to enact economic policy that even came close to resembling what Jesus taught.

I believe all that. That is why we need a Christian Socialist movement in the U.S. to out the ideas and teachings of Jesus into action both politically and economically.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe all that. That is why we need a Christian Socialist movement in the U.S. to out the ideas and teachings of Jesus into action both politically and economically.

But again, which "Christian" values do we go with? And again what about those who are Christian who would not be a part of the denomination that gets to decide our fate, and what about those who aren't even Christian to begin with?
The best way to avoid all of these unnecessary and unsolvable headaches is to just leave religion out of politics, and acknowledge people do not need religion to act in a way that most deem morally acceptable.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

But again, which "Christian" values do we go with? And again what about those who are Christian who would not be a part of the denomination that gets to decide our fate, and what about those who aren't even Christian to begin with?
The best way to avoid all of these unnecessary and unsolvable headaches is to just leave religion out of politics, and acknowledge people do not need religion to act in a way that most deem morally acceptable.

That is not a political reality. Our political reality is that the worker is informed by religious values and those religious values should be understood and address.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is not a political reality. Our political reality is that the worker is informed by religious values and those religious values should be understood and address.

How can that ever work? What if it is an Episcopal priest that gets to decide everything, and other denominations are upset because gay marriage is now legal? What if it's a Southern Baptist pastor who calls the shots, and all women must wear skirts? What if it is a denomination that strictly prohibits alcohol, even though plenty of Christians enjoy the occasional drink? What if it is Mormon, and there are even more legal challenges aimed at proxy baptism? What if it's Catholic and all forms of contraception are banned? Or Jehovah's Witness and our holidays are banned?
And then what of the rest of the country that isn't Christian? What about the Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics, Sheiks, First Nation, UU, and all the other non-Christian religions? Why should they be subjected to Christian legislation when congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion and it isn't their religious beliefs to begin with?

 

[work in progress]

Ignoring the differences does not make the differences go away.
And the differences between the various Christians sects are enough to wreck havoc.

There are doctrinal differences on salvation, original sin, free will/predestination, baptism, heaven/resurrection, 2nd coming etc., but there is nowhere in the Bible - old or new testaments, that teaches anything remotely similar to modern capitalistic principles. The prosperity gospel and similar right wing preaching on economic values, are not based on anything in the Bible.

Not only does Jesus and the prophets of the Old Testament heap scorn on the rich, the only economic model described for the first Christian community is absolute communism in Acts ch. 5., where everyone has to contribute ALL of their worldly possessions and wealth to be divied up equally among the community....check out what happens to Ananias and his wife - Sapphira, for just trying to hold back a small portion of their great wealth...and today's Republicans complain about 15% taxes!

 

[YmirGF]

Considering the dialogue in this thread it is hardly surprising that the American economy is doing so pathetically.

 

[BSM1]

[

quote=YmirGF;3779550]Considering the dialogue in this thread it is hardly surprising that the American economy is doing so pathetically.

[/QUOTE]

More's the pity :yes:.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There are doctrinal differences on salvation, original sin, free will/predestination, baptism, heaven/resurrection, 2nd coming etc., but there is nowhere in the Bible - old or new testaments, that teaches anything remotely similar to modern capitalistic principles. The prosperity gospel and similar right wing preaching on economic values, are not based on anything in the Bible.

Not only does Jesus and the prophets of the Old Testament heap scorn on the rich, the only economic model described for the first Christian community is absolute communism in Acts ch. 5., where everyone has to contribute ALL of their worldly possessions and wealth to be divied up equally among the community....check out what happens to Ananias and his wife - Sapphira, for just trying to hold back a small portion of their great wealth...and today's Republicans complain about 15% taxes!

Very true: getting a rich man into Heaven is like getting a camel through the eye of a needle; Yet lackest thou one thing, sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me.

Considering the dialogue in this thread it is hardly surprising that the American economy is doing so pathetically.

What more can you expect from a nation that claims to follow a guy who had quite the Communist social model going on, but yet in reality they rape the land with their ways of materialism and consumerism.

 

[work in progress]

Very true: getting a rich man into Heaven is like getting a camel through the eye of a needle; Yet lackest thou one thing, sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me.

Yes, there are so many Bible verses that condemn accumulating wealth and giving to the poor/ and scant few that can be twisted and shaped to the liking of the free marketeers, that I would say regardless of other beliefs that are or seem contradictory from book to book, the Bible's social gospel is clear and consistent throughout!

A quick synopsis of where and how the modern phenomena of right wing supply side Christianity got started in America would note the need to oppose everything considered socialistic after the rise of the Soviet Union and the fear of communism.

Prior to the rise of capitalist christianity, the wealthy Christians who genuinely feared hell's flames, felt the need to give large sums of money to the church or to charity. During the middle ages, the building of large cathedrals was made possible through the donations from wealthy patrons who feared hell's flames and perhaps with a little prodding and coaching from the clerical establishment, felt that they had to do something big and grand to assure their entry into heaven.

I've read that a similar phenomena exists in the Islamic World where extremely wealthy members of the Saud Family and Persian Gulf oil barons, who have spent most of their lives drinking, whoring and gambling in Monaco or the French Riviera, consult with Wahabbi clerics to discuss how much loot they will have to front for building mosques and madrassahs around the world, to balance the books and overtake all the bad things on their ledger during their time on Earth. I suppose that, in the Muslim World, they haven't thought up creating an Islamic version of prosperity gospel yet that glorifies the rich and condemns the poor for their station in life.