Atheists: What would you consider credible communication from God?

[Trailblazer]

This is a carryover from a dialogue that has been ongoing between me and an Atheist on another forum for about five years... Yes, five years and we are still going around in the same circles. I posted something about this about six months ago but I am back with a slightly different slant.

Synopsis: The issue at hand is that this Atheist thinks that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world (all 7.4 billion people) because that is “what he considers” the only credible method of communication. In his opinion, if God does not communicate directly to everyone, that is evidence that God does not exist. One of his premises is that a God would want everyone to believe in Him, and direct communication to everyone would be “the only way” to accomplish that.

My position is that God wants everyone to believe in Him but God does not need everyone to believe in Him because an omnipotent/omniscient/fully self-sufficient God does not need anything from anyone. If an omnipotent God needed everyone to believe in Him, He could have communicated directly to everyone. So, since God does not do that, there are only three logical possibilities to choose from:

1. God uses Messengers, knowing that not everyone will believe in them.
2. God does not communicate at all.
3. God does not exist.

There is no option #4, that if God exists, God would communicate directly with everyone, because God has not communicated directly with everyone.

In other words, since there is no evidence that God has ever communicated directly to everyone we can assume that is not what God wants to do, if God exists.

Credibility is not the issue here, this issue is the best way to communicate to accomplish what God is trying to accomplish.

Who would know the best way to communicate to humans in order to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, humans or God?

 

[Sunstone]

I would consider any communication in which a deity claimed that belief was important to them to be an hallucination. I cannot imagine a true deity caring at all about whether or nor anyone believes in him or her -- or it.

 

[columbus]

There is no option #4, that if God exists, God would communicate directly with everyone, because God has not communicated directly with everyone.

Why do you believe this?
What possible reason do you have for asserting that Almighty God is incapable of communicating with us limited human beings?
Tom

 

[Trailblazer]

I would consider any communication in which a deity claimed that belief was important to them to be an hallucination. I cannot imagine a true deity caring at all about whether or nor anyone believes in him or her -- or it.

I agree. No true deity would need our belief. The only reason that a deity would want us to believe in it would be for our own benefit.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you believe this?
What possible reason do you have for asserting that Almighty God is incapable of communicating with us limited human beings?
Tom

I never said anything about God being incapable. I said "If an omnipotent God needed everyone to believe in Him, He could have communicated directly to everyone." That indicates that God is capable.

Give me one good reason why God should communicate directly to everyone.

 

[ChristineM]

Any communication that can be independently verified as originating from a god is valid for those receiving the message.

Those not recieving or who's message can't be verified as god speak would have no reason to believe.

What verification would entail i have no idea, but surely an omni everything god should be capable of ensuring his messages can be verified.

 

[Sunstone]

I agree. No true deity would need our belief.

I agree with you there, Trailblazer. But to clarify, my point goes a bit beyond that.

I think a genuine deity would not even want people to believe in it. That is, it would not care one way or the other. To me, the question of whether one believes or disbelieves in deity would be so trivial to a deity that I cannot imagine any deity caring about it more than I can about what an ant thinks of my existence.

Just a matter of opinion though. I would not argue I knew the mind or concerns of a deity.

 

[Vinayaka]

I (and many Hindus and others in non-prophet faiths) believe God communicates directly with me/us every single day. That's the whole point of mystical faiths. There is no intermediary, and God is right there all the time to access, to be in the presence of, and more. If you don't feel it, fine. Very different paradigms.

 

[columbus]

I never said anything about God being incapable.

You have though, quite often.
God is incapable of communicating to us as a whole, He is limited to Messengers.
It's a fundamental of Bahai. God needs certain superman types. God can't just communicate with the rest of us.

Give me one good reason why God should communicate directly to everyone.

I don't have one.
I don't see any reason to believe that God cares. Why would "He"?
Why would the creator of the universe care enough to communicate with any human beings ever?
Tom

 

[Salvador]

There is evidence for a mark of extraterrestrial intelligence left in our genetic code as evident by how the numeric and semantic message of 037 appears in our genetic code. Each codon relates to 3 other particular codons having the same particular type of initial nucleobase and sequential nucleobase subsequently then followed by a different ending nucleobase. Half of these 4 set of codon groups ( whole family codons ) each code for the same particular amino acid. The other half of those 4 set of codon groups ( split codons ) don't code for the same amino acid. So then, in the case of whole family codons, there are 37 amino acid peptide chain nucleons for each relevant nucleobase determinant of how a particular amino acid gets coded. Start codons express 0 at the beginning of 37 Hence, the meaningful numeric and semantic message of 037 gets unambiguously and factually conveyed to us descendants of our cosmic ancestor(s) with our genetic code invented by a superior intelligence beyond that of anybody presently bound to Earth.

“There is no plausible chemical logic to couple directly the triplets and the amino acids. In other words, the principles of chemistry where not the sought essence of the genetic code”

“The zero is the supreme abstraction of arithmetic. Its use by any alphabet, including the genetic code, can be an indicator of artificiality.”

"The place-value decimal system represented through digital symmetry of the numbers divisible by prime number (PN 037). This arithmetical syntactic feature is an innate attribute of the genetic code. The PN 037 notation with a leading zero emphasizes zero's equal participation in the digital symmetry. Numbers written by identical digits are devised by PN 037*3=111 and 1+1+1=3 and appear regularly [from the figure: 037*6 =222 and 2+2+2=6, 037*9=333 and 3+3+3 =9, 037*4=444 and 4+4+4=12, 037*15=555 and 5+5+5=15, 037*18=666 and 6+6+6=18, 037*21=777 and 7+7+7 =21. 037*24 =888 and 8+8+8=24, 037*27=999 and 9+9+9=27.)"

"There is a complete set of information symbols utilizing the decimal syntax 111, 222, 333, 444, 555, 666, 777, 888, 999 in the genetic code. Each of these symbols consists uniformly of a carrier (balanced nucleons) and a meaning (the decimal syntax)."

Reference: The "Wow! signal" of the terrestrial genetic code. Vladimir l. shCherbak and Maxim A. Makukov. Redirectinghttps://www.scribd.com/document/35302916...netic-Code

"The first information system emerged on the earth as primordial version of the genetic code and genetic texts. The natural appearance of arithmetic power in such a linguistic milieu is theoretically possible and practical for producing information systems of extremely high efficiency. In this case, the arithmetic symbols should be incorporated into an alphabet, i.e. the genetic code. A number is the fundamental arithmetic symbol produced by the system of numeration. If the system of numeration were detected inside the genetic code, it would be natural to expect that its purpose is arithmetic calculation e.g., for the sake of control, safety, and precise alteration of the genetic texts. The nucleons of amino acids and the bases of nucleic acids seem most suitable for embodiments of digits. These assumptions were used for the analyzing the genetic code.

The compressed, life-size, and split representation of the Escherichia coli and Euplotes octocarinatus code versions were considered simultaneously. An exact equilibration of the nucleon sums of the amino acid standard blocks and/or side chains was found repeatedly within specified sets of the genetic code. Moreover, the digital notations of the balanced sums acquired, in decimal representation, the unique form 111, 222, …, 999. This form is a consequence of the criterion of divisibility by 037. The criterion could simplify some computing mechanism of a cell if any and facilitate its computational procedure.

Reference: Biosystems Volume 70, Issue 3, August 2003, Pages 187-209
"Arithmetic inside the universal genetic code" Author: Vladimir I. shCherbak
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...4703000662

"Numerous arithmetical regularities of nucleon numbers of canonical amino acids for quite different systematizations of the genetic code, which are dominantly based on decimal number 037, indicate the hidden existence of a more universal ordering principle. Mathematical analysis of number 037 reveals that it is a unique decimal number from which an infinite set of self-similar numbers can be derived with the nested numerical, geometrical, and arithmetical properties, thus enabling the nested coding and computing in the (bio)systems by geometry and resonance. The omnipresent fractal structural and dynamical organization, as well as the intertwining of quantum and classical realm in the physical and biological systems could be just the consequence of such coding and computing."

Reference: NeuroQuantology | December 2011 | Vol 9 | Issue 4 | Page 702-715 Masic, Natasa Nested Properties of shCherbak’s PQ 037 and (Biological) Coding/Computing Nested Numeric/Geometric/Arithmetic Propertiesof shCherbak’s Prime Quantum 037 as a Base of (Biological) Coding/Computing
http://Nested Numeric/Geometric/Arithmetic Properties

Exactly who/what left its/their mark in our genetic coding might not ever get determined by anybody presently bound to Earth. The search for our cosmic relatives and cosmic common ancestor likely then needs to be done with advanced space exploration. I'd like to urge you then to please advise our Senate, Congress and President to expand our tax-payer funded resources for advance space exploration.

 

[Bear Wild]

This is a carryover from a dialogue that has been ongoing between me and an Atheist on another forum for about five years... Yes, five years and we are still going around in the same circles. I posted something about this about six months ago but I am back with a slightly different slant.

Synopsis: The issue at hand is that this Atheist thinks that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world (all 7.4 billion people) because that is “what he considers” the only credible method of communication. In his opinion, if God does not communicate directly to everyone, that is evidence that God does not exist. One of his premises is that a God would want everyone to believe in Him, and direct communication to everyone would be “the only way” to accomplish that.

My position is that God wants everyone to believe in Him but God does not need everyone to believe in Him because an omnipotent/omniscient/fully self-sufficient God does not need anything from anyone. If an omnipotent God needed everyone to believe in Him, He could have communicated directly to everyone. So, since God does not do that, there are only three logical possibilities to choose from:

1. God uses Messengers, knowing that not everyone will believe in them.
2. God does not communicate at all.
3. God does not exist.

There is no option #4, that if God exists, God would communicate directly with everyone, because God has not communicated directly with everyone.

In other words, since there is no evidence that God has ever communicated directly to everyone we can assume that is not what God wants to do, if God exists.

Credibility is not the issue here, this issue is the best way to communicate to accomplish what God is trying to accomplish.

Who would know the best way to communicate to humans in order to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, humans or God?

If a god or goddess ever crated the humans as well as the rest of life why would that god/goddess not want to reveal themselves. How do you even know what the best way to accomplish what god is trying to accomplish if the goddess does not communicate? Messengers? Those that are messengers should be able to demonstrate the communication with the god or goddess. If god/goddess does not communicate at all than there is no reason to believe in the god/goddess because no communication has ever been sent or will be sent and the only knowledge can come from the natural world which would then be the only way to know anything. If there is no god then the natural world is our teacher. So 2 and 3 end with the same conclusion - the natural world is our teacher.

 

[Trailblazer]

Those not recieving or who's message can't be verified as god speak would have no reason to believe.

Some people might have reasons to believe that make no sense to you, but they are still reasons.

Any communication that can be independently verified as originating from a god is valid for those receiving the message. What verification would entail i have no idea, but surely an omni everything god should be capable of ensuring his messages can be verified.

I guess an Omnipotent God could do that if He wanted to.

How would direct communication from God to the person be verifiable to have come from God? What someone "believed" came from a real God could be just a hallucination.

 

[Altfish]

For an atheist to believe it would have to be impressive..

How about pre-warning a TV Channel that "I am going to appear before you all". Then at the allocated time, God appears and does something 'miraculous' - perhaps cause the River Nile to flow backwards; Maybe take 2 fishes and 5 loaves and feed the multitude; part the North Sea so that the migrants could cross.
The final one (thank you Stephen Fry) explain if you are all loving, etc., etc,. how come you allow children to suffer and die from bone cancer.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree with you there, Trailblazer. But to clarify, my point goes a bit beyond that.

I think a genuine deity would not even want people to believe in it. That is, it would not care one way or the other. To me, the question of whether one believes or disbelieves in deity would be so trivial to a deity that I cannot imagine any deity caring about it more than I can about what an ant thinks of my existence.

As I said, the deity would not care for itself for the reasons you gave. The only reason it might care if because it is beneficial for humans to believe in it. I can think of some reasons why it is beneficial, the main one being that if the deity exists it has certain implications for humans. It is a complete game changer, because if no deity exists humans are at the top of the food chain, but it a deity exists it is at the top. I think you can do the math.

 

[Sunstone]

First, thank you for such a well written and interesting OP!

This is a carryover from a dialogue that has been ongoing between me and an Atheist on another forum for about five years...

Madness! If you can be so interested in what someone has to say that you can argue with them for five years, you should consider marrying them. Except in your case, you're already married. But otherwise....

Synopsis: The issue at hand is that this Atheist thinks that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world (all 7.4 billion people) because that is “what he considers” the only credible method of communication. In his opinion, if God does not communicate directly to everyone, that is evidence that God does not exist. One of his premises is that a God would want everyone to believe in Him, and direct communication to everyone would be “the only way” to accomplish that.

I do not believe his premise that a god would necessarily want everyone to believe in him to be correct. For him to assert that implies he knows what a god would think, should there be a god. That strikes me as absurd.

Who would know the best way to communicate to humans in order to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, humans or God?

I agree.

 

[Bear Wild]

As I said, the deity would not care for itself for the reasons you gave. The only reason it might care if because it is beneficial for humans to believe in it. I can think of some reasons why it is beneficial, the main one being that if the deity exists it has certain implications for humans. It is a complete game changer, because if no deity exists humans are at the top of the food chain, but it a deity exists it is at the top. I think you can do the math.

How do you know what a deity knows or does not know, thinks or does not think. That infers a personal knowledge about the deity which means you have a way of directly connecting with the deity. Would a deity really be at the top of the food chain? Does the deity pray on the ones lower in the food chain which in itself is a misconception since there is not really a top but rather a transition of energy from one life to another all interdependent - no top or bottom otherwise one might consider the decomposers as the top since the are at the end point before the organic materials enter back into the ground. This reasoning indicates the deity is knowable so if knowable the deity is approachable.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer: I never said anything about God being incapable.
Tom: You have though, quite often.
God is incapable of communicating to us as a whole, He is limited to Messengers.
It's a fundamental of Bahai. God needs certain superman types. God can't just communicate with the rest of us.

No, I never said that God was incapable. I only said that God chooses to use Messengers. Baha’u’llah wrote that God could have made everyone one people, meaning that everyone would a believer. That indicates that God could have communicated directly to everyone.

“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” Gleanings, p. 71

However, God wants us all to believe in Him by using our own innate powers to search for Him and determine if He exists, and then decide to believe only by virtue of our own free will.

Trailblazer: Give me one good reason why God should communicate directly to everyone.
Tom: I don't have one.
I don't see any reason to believe that God cares. Why would "He"?
Why would the creator of the universe care enough to communicate with any human beings ever?

If God did not care about humans why would God create humans, just to watch them like a bunch of ants in an ant farm?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

As I said, the deity would not care for itself for the reasons you gave. The only reason it might care if because it is beneficial for humans to believe in it. I can think of some reasons why it is beneficial, the main one being that if the deity exists it has certain implications for humans. It is a complete game changer, because if no deity exists humans are at the top of the food chain, but it a deity exists it is at the top. I think you can do the math.

Deity not existing my no means implies that humans are "top of the food chain."

Simple existence is not a "game changer" in any way I can see. The only way it is if and only if there is some direct consequence established by the God...like, "Believe in me, and you get to come to Heaven with me; don't, and not so much!"

A god that doesn't care isn't relevant, as far as I can see.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

If God did not care about humans why would God create humans, just to watch them like a bunch of ants in an ant farm?

Because they're part of a larger system He/She/It/Them wants to see what happens?

Or maybe we're a creative arts project?

Or maybe we taste good, and He/She/It/Them wants there to be lots of us, cause He/She/It/Them is having other deities over for a party after work, and we make good finger food, so to speak?

 

[Revoltingest]

A thunderous boom & a brilliant flash would precede the sky parting as God drove
his flaming golden chariot pulled by a team of 4 winged pink unicorns from Heaven
down to Earth. They descend upon the Capitol dome & White House, grinding
government and its wicked edifice to dust beneath their holy carriage. Alighting
from his holy conveyance carried by eagles beneath his feet, he stands before us
in all his glory....tentacles gracefully writhing, and expansive white beard fluttering
in the wind...he then begins to speak to every human across the planet in every
language simultaneously.

At this point, I plan to listen.