Atheists vs. Theists -- Why Debate is Impossible

[wellwisher]

I don't know why you mention science and religion as if the debate between atheists and theists is a debate between science and religion. If the atheist in the debate is a believer in scientism or an empiricist it may end up as a religion vs science debate but scientism is a belief that is not atheism.

A short video about NOMA.

magisteria - Google Search

The debate between atheism and religion, is not exactly science versus religion, but more like philosophy versus religion. One does not have to have a science degree to become an Atheist, while many Scientists have been/are religious. Atheism is more like a mirror philosophy, where if religion says X, they will take the opposite position; -X. It is like the terrible twos where if you suggests anything the child will say no.

A good example of this real dividing line between Atheism and Religion, is the modern fad of gender. The evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, who is often seen as the poster child for the debate between Atheism and Religion, claims there are only two sexes in the science of biology.

Richard Dawkins: 'As a Biologist, There Are Two Sexes and That's All There Is To It'

The irony here is his science view on this subject is more consistent with religious teachings; Noah gathered two of each animal and not 27 of each animal. This is an example where science agrees with old Religious teachings on a specific observation. How many Atheists who claim to be all about hard science; methods and data, agree with both the science and religious views on the topic; Atheism is Science? Or does the contrary philosophy of Atheism, make you have choose the opposite of religion and therefore the opposite of science on this subject?

When Dawkins made sweeping claims about religion being mythology, the Atheist were willing to follow that since this vision of science was 180 degrees contrary to religion. But when you look at individual phenomena, Atheism is not always by the book of science, but often stays as the mirror philosophy contrary to religion. Inference is one way to do science; QED (that which is to be proven).

Gender is more consistent with philosophy and politics instead of science. Modern Atheism aligns more with Left wing politics than it does with biological science. Religion is about optimizing human nature. This is a science of its own, developed before there was modern science; careful observing human nature during an experiment stage of cultural evolution. This is because, religion is about the IT of the brain's operating system, with imagination exercising the most evolved parts of the brain; frontal lobe. Seeing is believing does not even need the frontal lobe, except when it is extrapolating theory. Religion uses this part of the brain more exclusively; independent space and time, instead of limited to space-time.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The debate between atheism and religion, is not exactly science versus religion, but more like philosophy versus religion. One does not have to have a science degree to become an Atheist, while many Scientists have been/are religious. Atheism is more like a mirror philosophy, where if religion says X, they will take the opposite position; -X. It is like the terrible twos where if you suggests anything the child will say no.

A good example of this real dividing line between Atheism and Religion, is the modern fad of gender. The evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, who is often seen as the poster child for the debate between Atheism and Religion, claims there are only two sexes in the science of biology.

Richard Dawkins: 'As a Biologist, There Are Two Sexes and That's All There Is To It'

The irony here is his science view on this subject is more consistent with religious teachings; Noah gathered two of each animal and not 27 of each animal. This is an example where science agrees with old Religious teachings on a specific observation. How many Atheists who claim to be all about hard science; methods and data, agree with both the science and religious views on the topic; Atheism is Science? Or does the contrary philosophy of Atheism, make you have choose the opposite of religion and therefore the opposite of science on this subject?

When Dawkins made sweeping claims about religion being mythology, the Atheist were willing to follow that since this vision of science was 180 degrees contrary to religion. But when you look at individual phenomena, Atheism is not always by the book of science, but often stays as the mirror philosophy contrary to religion. Inference is one way to do science; QED (that which is to be proven).

Gender is more consistent with philosophy and politics instead of science. Modern Artheism aligns more with Lefty wing politics that it does with biological science. Religion, which is about human nature. This is a science of its own, developed before there was modern science; observing human nature. This is because, religion is about the IT of the brain's operating system, with imagination exercising the most evolved parts of the brain. Seeing is believing does not even need the frontal lobe except when it is extrapolating theory. Religion uses this part of the brain more exclusively; independent space and time instead of just space-time.

The fun thing is that you speak of religion as if you own it. I am religious yet I don't hold some of the same views as you.

 

[Brian2]

The debate between atheism and religion, is not exactly science versus religion, but more like philosophy versus religion. One does not have to have a science degree to become an Atheist, while many Scientists have been/are religious. Atheism is more like a mirror philosophy, where if religion says X, they will take the opposite position; -X. It is like the terrible twos where if you suggests anything the child will say no.

A good example of this real dividing line between Atheism and Religion, is the modern fad of gender. The evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, who is often seen as the poster child for the debate between Atheism and Religion, claims there are only two sexes in the science of biology.

Richard Dawkins: 'As a Biologist, There Are Two Sexes and That's All There Is To It'

The irony here is his science view on this subject is more consistent with religious teachings; Noah gathered two of each animal and not 27 of each animal. This is an example where science agrees with old Religious teachings on a specific observation. How many Atheists who claim to be all about hard science; methods and data, agree with both the science and religious views on the topic; Atheism is Science? Or does the contrary philosophy of Atheism, make you have choose the opposite of religion and therefore the opposite of science on this subject?

When Dawkins made sweeping claims about religion being mythology, the Atheist were willing to follow that since this vision of science was 180 degrees contrary to religion. But when you look at individual phenomena, Atheism is not always by the book of science, but often stays as the mirror philosophy contrary to religion. Inference is one way to do science; QED (that which is to be proven).

Gender is more consistent with philosophy and politics instead of science. Modern Atheism aligns more with Left wing politics than it does with biological science. Religion is about optimizing human nature. This is a science of its own, developed before there was modern science; careful observing human nature during an experiment stage of cultural evolution. This is because, religion is about the IT of the brain's operating system, with imagination exercising the most evolved parts of the brain; frontal lobe. Seeing is believing does not even need the frontal lobe, except when it is extrapolating theory. Religion uses this part of the brain more exclusively; independent space and time, instead of limited to space-time.

Interesting view. Thanks for that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Interesting view. Thanks for that.

Yeah, and the joke is that not all religion is theistic and there is no one system of either philosophy or science.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Open mindedness does not being so open that your brain falls out onto the floor and due to one's open mindedness he no longer knows how to clear it up.

You should have listened to benji.

I will also ask you the same question as I have now asked @F1fan.

This question:

Question:

Are you able to comprehend these three words are in an order representing three different levels of height:

Valley - Hill - Mountain

And that these three words are also in order representing three different levels of height:

Sea - River - Stream

I think that first step should be simple enough to understand.


Now Im going to put them together.

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream

So we have two different layers that both represent three levels of height.

Are you comprehending this?

So can you understand that or not?

Can you understand that I am showing two layers of three words that both represent three different levels of height showing lowest to highest.

Like the hill is higher than the valley, and the mountain is higher than the hill. Just as the river is higher than the sea, and the stream is higher than the river.

I would like to know if this can be understood before trying to explain a next step.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I will also ask you the same question as I have now asked @F1fan.

This question:


So can you understand that or not?

Can you understand that I am showing two layers of three words that both represent three different levels of height showing lowest to highest.

Like the hill is higher than the valley, and the mountain is higher than the hill. Just as the river is higher than the sea, and the stream is higher than the river.

I would like to know if this can be understood before trying to explain a next step.

You either have nothing or are totally inept at explaining it. And since people that understand a concept can usually explain it properly it is looking more and more as if you have nothing at all.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You either have nothing or are totally inept at explaining it. And since people that understand a concept can usually explain it properly it is looking more and more as if you have nothing at all.

Im trying to talk about words that you cant hear. And I am trying to explain exactly why you cant hear them.

So listen carefully.


Im now going to show you exactly why you cant hear the corn, the wine, and the oil that is talked about in the bible.


As said in this verse which suggests the words were not heard:

"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel". Hosea 2:22


Remember just like how I showed the two layers that both represent three different levels of height.
Now consider the corn, the oil, and the wine are also representing the same three different levels of height.

Look at their placement:

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

And I can verify their placement:


As you can see the Corn is at the same level of height as the Valley:

"The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing". Psalm 65:13



As you can see the Oil is at the same level of height as the River:

"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel 32:14



As you can see the Wine is the same level of height as the Mountain:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt". Amos 9:13



Can you now start to hear the corn, the oil, and the wine differently?

Or are you not able to comprehend this concept?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Im trying to talk about words that you cant hear. And I am trying to explain exactly why you cant hear them.

So listen carefully.


Im now going to show you exactly why you cant hear the corn, the wine, and the oil that is talked about in the bible.


As said in this verse which suggests the words were not heard:

"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel". Hosea 2:22


Remember just like how I showed the two layers that both represent three different levels of height.
Now consider the corn, the oil, and the wine are also representing the same three different levels of height.

Look at their placement:

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

And I can verify their placement:


As you can see the Corn is at the same level of height as the Valley:

"The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing". Psalm 65:13



As you can see the Oil is at the same level of height as the River:

"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel 32:14



As you can see the Wine is the same level of height as the Mountain:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt". Amos 9:13



Can you now start to hear the corn, the oil, and the wine differently?

Or are you not able to comprehend this concept?

I can comprehend much more than you realize.

 

[F1fan]

Im trying to talk about words that you cant hear. And I am trying to explain exactly why you cant hear them.

So listen carefully.


Im now going to show you exactly why you cant hear the corn, the wine, and the oil that is talked about in the bible.


As said in this verse which suggests the words were not heard:

"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel". Hosea 2:22


Remember just like how I showed the two layers that both represent three different levels of height.
Now consider the corn, the oil, and the wine are also representing the same three different levels of height.

Look at their placement:

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

And I can verify their placement:


As you can see the Corn is at the same level of height as the Valley:

"The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing". Psalm 65:13



As you can see the Oil is at the same level of height as the River:

"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel 32:14



As you can see the Wine is the same level of height as the Mountain:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt". Amos 9:13



Can you now start to hear the corn, the oil, and the wine differently?

Or are you not able to comprehend this concept?

Yeah, tricky language as if any of it has some deep meaning. It's poetry. Eye of the beholder.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I can comprehend much more than you realize.

With responses like this I would have to agree with you on that statement. Because I have no clue what you can comprehend.


To better understand what Im trying to explain perhaps you could consider these words from the Quran:

When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients." 8:31

There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe. 12:11

And ye shall be sorted out into three classes. 56:7

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Yeah, tricky language as if any of it has some deep meaning. It's poetry. Eye of the beholder.

Yes it is tricky language. Thats why people cant hear it. At first glance you might think poetry.
But all layers of many words can be shown to be directly interwoven into the corn, oil, and wine layer positions.

The bible speaks about bread and wine. But people cant hear the bread and wine is the low and the high.

Its like a measurement of value.

Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

 

[F1fan]

Yes it is tricky language. Thats why people cant hear it. At first glance you might think poetry.
But all layers of many words can be shown to be directly interwoven into the corn, oil, and wine layer positions.

The bible speaks about bread and wine. But people cant hear the bread and wine is the low and the high.

Its like a measurement of value.

Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Too bad you are unable to explain how there is anything special to "hear". If ordinary believers in some fantastic claim can't explain what they think they understand, then perhaps they aren't special afterall. We have many, many believers in this forum claiming some sort of special wisdom and insight, and they don't agree with each other. Does that suggest there are many gods with many divine tricks and messages, and only a few select people who can "see"? If theists were really onto something that takes a special spiritual ability wouldn't you expect a uniform understanding?

There are many skilled thinkers that can't recognize what you post as being significant or special. You seem to be looking at patterns that might have been designed by ancient people with time on their hands. Occam's Razor.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Too bad you are unable to explain how there is anything special to "hear". If ordinary believers in some fantastic claim can't explain what they think they understand, then perhaps they aren't special afterall. We have many, many believers in this forum claiming some sort of special wisdom and insight, and they don't agree with each other. Does that suggest there are many gods with many divine tricks and messages, and only a few select people who can "see"? If theists were really onto something that takes a special spiritual ability wouldn't you expect a uniform understanding?

There are many skilled thinkers that can't recognize what you post as being significant or special. You seem to be looking at patterns that might have been designed by ancient people with time on their hands. Occam's Razor.

Did you even read my first post on this thread?

This post:

I think a flaw in atheist logic is understanding exactly what prophecy and miracles are.
As I can sort any so called prophet by their ability to do signs. To accept or reject.

And I know there are theists waiting for prophecies that they will never see happen in their lifetime. Thats also because they also dont know what prophecies/miracles are. They think miracles are done by magic and explain by saying God can do anything.

Its just a misunderstanding. Prophecies were fulfilled the moment they were spoken. And that can be scientifically investigated.

Prophecies and miracles is what makes the words of the bible believable to me in a logical way.

I believe their sign language. Their words are true in what they say.

Their language is symbolic. Their words are symbols, and each symbol has its place along with other certain symbols to form groups of symbols.

The groups of symbols form a pattern that Ive seen before. They form Zodiac wheel. A map of the heavens.

Im saying I think the speech is positioning words making what is known as a Zodiac wheel.
Each position has multiple words assigned to it. I can show how it is done.

Did you read my posts when I assigned different animals to the gates of the tribes and showed evidence for it?

North:
Judah = Lion
Reuben = Cattle
Levi = Bear

West:
Gad = Leopard
Asher = Goat
Naphtali = Deer

East:
Benjamin = Wolf
Joseph = Sheep
Dan = Horse

South:
Simeon = ?
Isaacher = As/s
Zebulin = ?


Did you bother reading these things?
Im wondering if the reason you dont understand what Im saying is because you were not even listening.

 

[F1fan]

Did you even read my first post on this thread?

This post:

You insist atheists have a flaw in how they assess miracles, but you don't explain any actual flaw, and nor demonstrate miracles and prophesy is real. Where is the evidence of any flaw?

Im saying I think the speech is positioning words making what is known as a Zodiac wheel.
Each position has multiple words assigned to it. I can show how it is done.

Did you read my posts when I assigned different animals to the gates of the tribes and showed evidence for it?

North:
Judah = Lion
Reuben = Cattle
Levi = Bear

West:
Gad = Leopard
Asher = Goat
Naphtali = Deer

East:
Benjamin = Wolf
Joseph = Sheep
Dan = Horse

South:
Simeon = ?
Isaacher = As/s
Zebulin = ?


Did you bother reading these things?
Im wondering if the reason you dont understand what Im saying is because you were not even listening.

If you believe there is some hidden meaning in this, then point it out in clear language, no tricky language. And even if you can do that, what makes this supernatural versus some ancient people who were good at creating puzzles?

Johnny = Kitten

You're blaming atheists for not getting something that you fail to explain. It's your failure to not support your assertions. So get to it.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You insist atheists have a flaw in how they assess miracles, but you don't explain any actual flaw, and nor demonstrate miracles and prophesy is real. Where is the evidence of any flaw?

If you believe there is some hidden meaning in this, then point it out in clear language, no tricky language. And even if you can do that, what makes this supernatural versus some ancient people who were good at creating puzzles?

Johnny = Kitten

You're blaming atheists for not getting something that you fail to explain. It's your failure to not support your assertions. So get to it.

Did you even read the post where I showed how the wolf is with the lamb?

I showed exactly how the prophecy of the apparent miracle works. Its not magic, and its not about a future event.

Listen to the post:

But what if people don't know what signs/miracles/prophecies are?

I have an alternative understanding of the words and I can show many examples of how they work.

Like have you heard about the prophecy about someday the animals will be at peace with each other. The wolf will be with the lamb, and the lion will eat straw with the ox, serpent eats the dust, etc

Some consider it is a prophecy about a miracle. They think it is magic.




So here is an example of my point of view. I will show you the wolf has always been with the lamb:

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them". Isaiah.

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord". Isaiah.


All of these words are true. According to their twelve positions.

The wolf is with the lamb because they are both Easterly gates in the city of 12 gates.




Joseph is sheep:

"Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth". Psalm.


Benjamin is wolf:

"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil". Genesis.



Benjamin and Joseph are together in the East:

"And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan". Ezekiel.


Hence it is true what was said. The wolf is with the lamb, as Benjamin is with Joseph.
I could also show the positioning of the other animals in the prophecy to their certain gates.

The speech is symbolic and each symbol (word) has a certain position.

Is that difficult to understand?