ATHEISTS ONLY: The 'problem' of Islam

[frg001]

"In October, 2008, a girl, Aisho Ibrahim Dhuhulow was buried up to her neck and then stoned to death after allegedly having pled guilty to adultery in a shari`ah court in Kismayo, a city controlled by Islamist insurgents. According to the insurgents she had said that she wanted the shari`ah law to apply. Amnesty International later learned that the girl in fact was 13 years old and had been arrested after having reported a rape to the al-Shabab militia.

Accused of adultery, Asha Ibrahim Dhuhulow was buried up to her neck in front of hundreds of people while stones were hurled at her head. She was dragged out of the hole three times to see if she was dead."

Taken from the amnesty international webpage.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This thread is truly taking on the characteristics of a bigoted brain dump ...

"In October, 2008, a girl, Aisho Ibrahim Dhuhulow was buried up to her neck and then stoned to death after allegedly having pled guilty to adultery in a shari`ah court in Kismayo, a city controlled by Islamist insurgents ...

Perhaps we should talk about the genocide perpetrated by the atheist Pol Pot regime. Or, speaking of Godless barbarism ...

The Cultural Revolution was particularly devastating for minority cultures in China. In Tibet, over 6,000 monasteries were destroyed, often with the complicity of local ethnic Tibetan Red Guards. In Inner Mongolia, some 790,000 people were persecuted, of these 22,900 were beaten to death and 120,000 were maimed, during a ruthless witchhunt to find members of the allegedly "separatist" Inner Mongolian People's Party, which had actually been disbanded decades before. According to Jung Chang in her controversial book Mao: The Unknown Story, cases included a Muslim woman having her teeth pulled out with pliers, then her nose and ears twisted off, before being hacked to death. Another woman was raped with a pole (she then committed suicide). One man had nails driven into his skull. Another had his tongue cut out and then his eyes gouged out. Another was beaten with clubs on the genitals before having gunpowder forced up his nostrils and set alight. In Xinjiang, copies of the Quran and other books of the Uyghur people were burned and Muslim imams were reportedly paraded around with paint splashed on their persons. In the ethnic Korean areas of northeast China, language schools were destroyed. In Yunnan Province, the palace of the Dai people's king was torched, and an infamous massacre of Hui Muslim people at the hands of the People's Liberation Army, called the "Shadian Incident", claimed over 1,600 lives in 1975. [wiki]

The bottom line is this:

• If you can show that such things as mercy killings and the barbaric murder of Aisho Ibrahim Dhuhulow are inherent and inevitable aspects of Islam, do so.
• If not, you're simply spewing bigoted drivel in the commission of an ad hoc fallacy.

Either way, you, not Islam, is accountable.

 

[frg001]

This thread is truly taking on the characteristics of a bigoted brain dump ...

​

Perhaps we should talk about the genocide perpetrated by the atheist Pol Pot regime. Or, speaking of Godless barbarism ...

​

The bottom line is this:

• If you can show that such things as mercy killings and the barbaric murder of Aisho Ibrahim Dhuhulow are inherent and inevitable aspects of Islam, do so.
• If not, you're simply spewing bigoted drivel in the commission of an ad hoc fallacy.

Either way, you, not Islam, is accountable.

In what way is reporting news bigoted? I have no problem with most individual muslims, but Islam is inherently, obviously responsible...
Yes, I take the point that atheist regimes have been responsible for atrocities, but this type of thing is happening 'today', and is not isolated. All over Islamic parts of Africa, and the Middle east, these type of things are happening, as we speak.

 

[frg001]

Just to add. Accusations of bigotry are outrageous. That is exactly what I want to see the back of. The problem is that many religions are bigoted at their very core. Anti-homosexual, anti-women, and anti-other religions, and in the case of some of them, grossly inhumane.
I have never had a problem with any religious individual personally, but I read the news, and watch the TV. Until The Church (of whatever faith) can actually realize that it's now the 21st century, and that men, women and all those in between ARE EQUAL, and that other people want to exist differently without being forced to blindly respect any views which are deemed 'sacrilegious', then I will continue to have the views I have. I have good friends from many faiths, and although I consider them all to be misguided in their beliefs (as I'm sure they think of me), they are decent honest people.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In what way is reporting news bigoted?

You've got to be kidding! What would you think of a thread that reported every case of a white woman raped by a black man? What you are doing is despicable ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Just to add. Accusations of bigotry are outrageous.

No! Failure to expose and condemn bigotry is outrageous.

 

[frg001]

You've got to be kidding! What would you think of a thread that reported every case of a white woman raped by a black man? What you are doing is despicable ...

Have you read the thread title?

The point is, if it was isolated instances, I wouldn't even have posted it. But as I said above, this is a very common occurance across the Islamic world. It isn't a blip in the statistics due poverty within a rich country, that some racist knucklehead might quote, it is happening right now, as we speak.

Shouting LALALALA won't hide the fact that Islam seems to produce horrible regimes, and induce the people living within them to do horrible things.

 

[frg001]

Just to add, again.

Maybe the thread has spiralled from a genuine question born of a genuine worry.

I shall explain further if I may.

In the UK, there is a political party (if you can call it that) called the BNP (British National Party). These people are racists. Some of them claim otherwise, but generally they are. Many ex-criminals and some really unsavoury characters. Yet each year they gain more and more votes.
They have representation on local councils, thankfully no real seats yet, but the way it is going, they may yet achieve that.
I detest this type of right-wing, short-sighted politics. In fact I consider myself a socialist, but just left of centre rather than the other, equally sordid extreme.
But there IS a problem in the UK, with so-called multiculturism. It doesn't work. We simply get segregated groups. And with segregated groups comes distrust, and instability. The BNP have latched onto this and exploit peoples fears, and natural xenophobia.
Now this is all very well if it is simply different cultures. It sort of ticked over ok. But now we have a faith, that makes demands on the government of the land. The demand to be listened to, or else.

I have never ever complained about immigrants, especially not asylum seekers fleeing persecution, but I do concern myself, when they arrive, and preach hatred against the very place that gave them shelter. So now we have the aftermath of 7/7 (bombings on the underground), and security is so high it impedes on everyones civil liberties.
But thats just the radical muslims? Well yes, only they blow things up, and thankfully they are a minority, but we have mosques where clerics are passing the same message on, glorifying and praising the 911 bombers and creating new radicals each day.
There have been race riots in the last few years, spurred on no doubt by the BNP. But the average, otherwise decent man in the street is beginning to vote for them, because the Government is not taking it seriously.
This cannot be allowed to happen. I don't know what the answer is, that was my original point, but something needs to be done.

 

[England my lionheart]

Just to add, again.

Maybe the thread has spiralled from a genuine question born of a genuine worry.

I shall explain further if I may.

In the UK, there is a political party (if you can call it that) called the BNP (British National Party). These people are racists. Some of them claim otherwise, but generally they are. Many ex-criminals and some really unsavoury characters. Yet each year they gain more and more votes.
They have representation on local councils, thankfully no real seats yet, but the way it is going, they may yet achieve that.
I detest this type of right-wing, short-sighted politics. In fact I consider myself a socialist, but just left of centre rather than the other, equally sordid extreme.
But there IS a problem in the UK, with so-called multiculturism. It doesn't work. We simply get segregated groups. And with segregated groups comes distrust, and instability. The BNP have latched onto this and exploit peoples fears, and natural xenophobia.
Now this is all very well if it is simply different cultures. It sort of ticked over ok. But now we have a faith, that makes demands on the government of the land. The demand to be listened to, or else.

I have never ever complained about immigrants, especially not asylum seekers fleeing persecution, but I do concern myself, when they arrive, and preach hatred against the very place that gave them shelter. So now we have the aftermath of 7/7 (bombings on the underground), and security is so high it impedes on everyones civil liberties.
But thats just the radical muslims? Well yes, only they blow things up, and thankfully they are a minority, but we have mosques where clerics are passing the same message on, glorifying and praising the 911 bombers and creating new radicals each day.
There have been race riots in the last few years, spurred on no doubt by the BNP. But the average, otherwise decent man in the street is beginning to vote for them, because the Government is not taking it seriously.
This cannot be allowed to happen. I don't know what the answer is, that was my original point, but something needs to be done.

I very much agree with what you have said regarding the right wing BNP and i hope they do not ever get a seat.
However there are other elements that practice racism and can be see every day in London between Muslims(especially recently) and Indians (Sikhs etc),Albanians,Poles,Russians,Nigerians etc all have a dislike for one or other.
This country is a powder keg and it will not be pretty if it blow up.

 

[England my lionheart]

This thread is truly taking on the characteristics of a bigoted brain dump ...Perhaps we should talk about the genocide perpetrated by the atheist Pol Pot regime. Or, speaking of Godless barbarism ...The bottom line is this:

• If you can show that such things as mercy killings and the barbaric murder of Aisho Ibrahim Dhuhulow are inherent and inevitable aspects of Islam, do so.
• If not, you're simply spewing bigoted drivel in the commission of an ad hoc fallacy.

Either way, you, not Islam, is accountable.

So does that mean that the crimes against Humanity commited by Iran have nothing to do with Islam,i thought Iran was indeed an Islamic state or am i wrong.

 

[frg001]

I very much agree with what you have said regarding the right wing BNP and i hope they do not ever get a seat.
However there are other elements that practice racism and can be see every day in London between Muslims(especially recently) and Indians (Sikhs etc),Albanians,Poles,Russians,Nigerians etc all have a dislike for one or other.
This country is a powder keg and it will not be pretty if it blow up.

I know about the racism inherent between minorities... The BNP however are in a position of power. I fear if something isn't done on a less extreme scale than they suggest, and soon, by the government of the day , then you are right. We have already had rioting in the northwest, I just hope it doesn't happen on a bigger scale... Just look at Paris a few years ago...Not good...

 

[Luminous]

Islamic proposals to ban criticism of religion, which have gathered strength since the publication of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad two years ago, threaten to derail an already troubled U.N. anti-racism conference planned for next year.
The European Union rejects suggestions by Algeria—backed by other Muslim and African countries—that limits on free speech are needed to stop the publication of offensive articles and images... Article

 

[Father Heathen]

Islamic proposals to ban criticism of religion, which have gathered strength since the publication of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad two years ago, threaten to derail an already troubled U.N. anti-racism conference planned for next year.
The European Union rejects suggestions by Algeria—backed by other Muslim and African countries—that limits on free speech are needed to stop the publication of offensive articles and images... Article

Rights and liberty should never take a backseat to primitive superstitions, IMHO.

 

[Theocan]

I think you are overreacting. There is a reason why those muslims are in Europe in the first place is because they do not enjoy the way traditional islamic states are treating their rights. While this may not be the case for all muslims in Europe. It would be safe to assume that most muslim people in Europe have a strong appreciation for seperation of Chruch and State.

 

[kai]

I think you are overreacting. There is a reason why those muslims are in Europe in the first place is because they do not enjoy the way traditional islamic states are treating their rights. While this may not be the case for all muslims in Europe. It would be safe to assume that most muslim people in Europe have a strong appreciation for seperation of Chruch and State.

i think it would be safe to assume that most muslims actually wanted the exact opposite, Islam is a way of life not just a way to worship

 

[frg001]

I think you are overreacting. There is a reason why those muslims are in Europe in the first place is because they do not enjoy the way traditional islamic states are treating their rights. While this may not be the case for all muslims in Europe. It would be safe to assume that most muslim people in Europe have a strong appreciation for seperation of Chruch and State.

Even if you are right, which I doubt, one problem, is that as the population increases, so does the likelyhood of local and even governmental power. I really do not want to see 1. More rioting on the streets, as the divide grows stronger, and 2. Policies at either local or National level based in the slightest bit, on any one religious viewpoint.
Freedom of speech (up to a point) is one of the most basic and important rights we have. We can rightfully criticize, parody or even ridicule the government, or the monarchy if we wish. The same should be the case with religious groups...without the fear of reprisals.

Actions of Islamic militants (I know this is a tiny minority) have already curtailed many of our freedoms, and made life more difficult. I want to see an end to that, and the only way is by sticking to our guns(not literally) and keeping the culture of the country we are in, intact. I am English, British. I do not want to see my country that I love dearly turned into a place pandering to religious whim. Religion should be a peaceful, private thing, not an exercise in thought control.

 

[darkendless]

The reason i support the motive of this thread is because:
1) from experience muslims don't come to Australia just to live, they come here and demand special treatment.
2) i am of the opinion that if you come to a country as an immigrant, you accept everything the country stands for, if you don't go home. We see a lot of muslims trying to blame Australia for intolerance, well sorry people, our constitution doesn't say "prepare for a lot of muslims in 50 years." It honestly feels like we're expected to change the way we live, and have lived our whole lives to embrace these people. No, thats not how it works.
3) is annoys me that muslims come here and set up muslim schools teaching muslim values when we are not used to this, and then have the nerve to say they feel isolated from society. If they have a problem with our education system, dont come here. Im sick to death of hearing that Australia needs to do more to accomodate our muslim friends. Its not our responsibility to go out of our way, they separated themselves from the community, not us.

Now that was a general statement and does not only apply to muslims. My friend Kashim is a muslim and hes a great friend. Even he says muslims in this country are being rediculous. I dont know how right i am here, but it feels as though even though these people live in our country and we try to accept them no matter what they believe and what they wear on their head, that they don't trust us. Its just a feeling, and its very common.
Sadly i do not think there is a solution to this either. It feels like already the lines have been drawn and both sides refuse to cross.

 

[England my lionheart]

The reason i support the motive of this thread is because:
1) from experience muslims don't come to Australia just to live, they come here and demand special treatment.
2) i am of the opinion that if you come to a country as an immigrant, you accept everything the country stands for, if you don't go home. We see a lot of muslims trying to blame Australia for intolerance, well sorry people, our constitution doesn't say "prepare for a lot of muslims in 50 years." It honestly feels like we're expected to change the way we live, and have lived our whole lives to embrace these people. No, thats not how it works.
3) is annoys me that muslims come here and set up muslim schools teaching muslim values when we are not used to this, and then have the nerve to say they feel isolated from society. If they have a problem with our education system, dont come here. Im sick to death of hearing that Australia needs to do more to accomodate our muslim friends. Its not our responsibility to go out of our way, they separated themselves from the community, not us.

Now that was a general statement and does not only apply to muslims. My friend Kashim is a muslim and hes a great friend. Even he says muslims in this country are being rediculous. I dont know how right i am here, but it feels as though even though these people live in our country and we try to accept them no matter what they believe and what they wear on their head, that they don't trust us. Its just a feeling, and its very common.
Sadly i do not think there is a solution to this either. It feels like already the lines have been drawn and both sides refuse to cross.

I agree,the problem with many Muslims is they cannot or will not integrate,i don't want some stoneage Sharia Law,its taken hundreds of years for my country to be secular and i am fed up with having to accomodate them.

 

[darkendless]

I agree,the problem with many Muslims is they cannot or will not integrate,i don't want some stoneage Sharia Law,its taken hundreds of years for my country to be secular and i am fed up with having to accomodate them.

It is true, but i think the heart of the problem is that some actually do integrate. That way the government cannot paint them all with the same brush and gets in trouble when they single out groups who do not integrate. Its always great to be called a racist and prejudice inside your own country because you refuse to change your lifestyle for immigrants. I immigrated to Australia, i took on everything that this country offered without a problem. Im grateful for having the oppurtunity i have over here, because in New Zealand i would not have had the same chances.

 

[Pah]

The problem with Islam is that it is like so many of its brother religions.