Atheists are now supporting intelligent design

[Gunfingers]

If there are no better values for any of the above, that means they are all optimally set.

Hell, while we're at it let's make up some new forces and take out the existing ones. Let's add the "Hot Lesbians Attraction Coefficient Force". Whenever two particles of the same charge come together other particles of the opposite charge gather around to watch and pleasure themselves. This would lead to, i dunno, quasars being purple or something. And let's take out dark matter, amirite? Never liked dark matter. It just runs around joining gangs and doing drugs*. That would lead to baryonic matter only being attracted to eachother and the mass of the universe would make sense. Or how about this: let's just remove all the matter and energy entirely. The universe is now just a featureless void. Yay!

The point i'm trying to make is that what the universe would be like if the laws of physics were different is a useless exercise. All we know is that the laws of physics as they are now allow the Universe as we know it to develop. Change the laws of physics and some other universe would develop, and may develop some other form of life. If there are other universes i'm sure there's one where a race of metallic mushroom men are using their sonic thought organs to claim that their universe is "fine tuned" because life as they know it couldn't form if molecules were able to coalesce into giant uncontrolled nuclear balls of fire.


*HA! Satire! I'm a regular Voltaire!

 

[idea]

what the universe would be like if the laws of physics were different is a useless exercise. All we know is that the laws of physics as they are now allow the Universe as we know it to develop.

Actually we do know what the universe would be like if we changed things up a bit...

we know what would happen if gravity were larger or smaller.
We know what would happen if the atomic force were larger or smaller.
We know what would happen if .... etc. etc. etc.

There is one unique value for all of this stuff that produces anything but black holes, or dust. Black holes exist, we know there is no life in black holes.... dust exists, has existed for billions of years, no life has evolved on the dust - we know what would develope given slight changes to any of the fine tuned constants - and it is not life.

We have computer sims etc. etc. that can show exactly what the universe would be like given different sets of variables - not one of them produces life.

There is only one set of variables that works - it is not like a different value for gravity would produce a slightly different alien world... ALL values of g that are too high all produce the same thing - black holes... ALL values that are too small produce THE SAME THING - dust (no stars, no planets, no moons, just dust) there is only ONE value that creates anything other than dust/black holes - that is what we have.... not just gravity, ALL of the fine tuned constants are like this....

Only one value that creates the periodic table of elements (only one type of atom would exist at any other value)
Only ONE value that creates any of it....
We exist at a unique singularity.

You have avoided answering the question, because the answer is - there is no other set of constants that can produce life. (and it is possible to go through and calculate/simulate what other laws/constants would create)

 

[David M]

If there are no better values for any of the above, that means they are all optimally set.

And the evidence that any of this is true is what?

The point about entropy is obvious garbage because entropy changes over time. Its not, and never was, a constant.

There is one unique value for all of this stuff that produces anything but black holes, or dust. Black holes exist, we know there is no life in black holes.... dust exists, has existed for billions of years, no life has evolved on the dust - we know what would develope given slight changes to any of the fine tuned constants - and it is not life.

Except for the weak nuclear force, where we know that it can even be eliminated and different values of the other forces woud produce the same universe. This demonstrates that there are other combinations of values for constants that would produce what we see in our universe. The fine tuning argument is dead.

There is only one set of variables that works - it is not like a different value for gravity would produce a slightly different alien world... ALL values of g that are too high all produce the same thing - black holes... ALL values that are too small produce THE SAME THING - dust (no stars, no planets, no moons, just dust) there is only ONE value that creates anything other than dust/black holes - that is what we have.... not just gravity, ALL of the fine tuned constants are like this....

So what you are saying is that there are values for gravity that are not too high and not too small, in other words you are admitting that the fine tuning argument is dead (again).

Only one value that creates the periodic table of elements (only one type of atom would exist at any other value)

Untrue, see the point above about the weak nuclear force.

You have avoided answering the question, because the answer is - there is no other set of constants that can produce life. (and it is possible to go through and calculate/simulate what other laws/constants would create)

There are other sets of values for constants that would result in our universe, the fine tuning argument is dead and buried.

 

[idea]

And the evidence that any of this is true is what?

The point about entropy is obvious garbage because entropy changes over time. Its not, and never was, a constant.

It is very simple, if you see something that looks designed, it probably is.

time is constant, moves forward at a constant rate, time is a measure of entropy.

 

[David M]

It is very simple, if you see something that looks designed, it probably is.

Going to present a metric for reliably detecting design then?

You have just admitted that things that look designed don't need to be.

time is constant, moves forward at a constant rate, time is a measure of entropy.

No, time is relative, this has been demonstrated a number of times by looking at reality.

No, disorder is a measure of entropy. And entropy is not, and never has been, a constant.

 

[outhouse]

It is very simple, if you see something that looks designed, it probably is.

WOW is this not imagination at work???

 

[outhouse]

There is only one set of variables that works

great you have defined nature of the universe, this does not need a creator.

Life will find a way it always has

 

[idea]

Life will find a way it always has

Life is an incredible thing. I for one will not underestimate the creative abilities of that which lives. Why do you believe that there is an upper bound to life? Do you honestly believe that we are the most advanced beings in the universe?

 

[idea]

No, disorder is a measure of entropy. And entropy is not, and never has been, a constant.

so... are you saying that you don't trust Carbon dating?

 

[darkendless]

Actually we do know what the universe would be like if we changed things up a bit...

we know what would happen if gravity were larger or smaller.
We know what would happen if the atomic force were larger or smaller.
We know what would happen if .... etc. etc. etc.

There is one unique value for all of this stuff that produces anything but black holes, or dust. Black holes exist, we know there is no life in black holes.... dust exists, has existed for billions of years, no life has evolved on the dust - we know what would develope given slight changes to any of the fine tuned constants - and it is not life.

We have computer sims etc. etc. that can show exactly what the universe would be like given different sets of variables - not one of them produces life.

There is only one set of variables that works - it is not like a different value for gravity would produce a slightly different alien world... ALL values of g that are too high all produce the same thing - black holes... ALL values that are too small produce THE SAME THING - dust (no stars, no planets, no moons, just dust) there is only ONE value that creates anything other than dust/black holes - that is what we have.... not just gravity, ALL of the fine tuned constants are like this....

Only one value that creates the periodic table of elements (only one type of atom would exist at any other value)
Only ONE value that creates any of it....
We exist at a unique singularity.

You have avoided answering the question, because the answer is - there is no other set of constants that can produce life. (and it is possible to go through and calculate/simulate what other laws/constants would create)

Well done, you just demonstrated why we are here. We are here because the natural forces manifested in such conditions to allow us to survive.

I think the point of your post was to prove that God did it but you really failed to demonstrate his awesomeness

 

[Autodidact]

Just because we can't live on the sun, doesn't mean that we don't need the sun to survive.... I think the stars are nice, and like all the space that we have.

but tell me, if you think there is something better, can you do any better? which of the following constants would you change in order to make the universe more habitable? (If you think that it in fact can be made more habitable?)

Evidence for the Fine Tuning of the Universe
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If there are no better values for any of the above, that means they are all optimally set.

How is a number better or worse? The question doesn't even make sense. If something was different, then it wouldn't be the same. Duh. And I suppose, from the point of view of a sentient being in that universe, it would be "optimal."

 

[Autodidact]

Actually we do know what the universe would be like if we changed things up a bit...

we know what would happen if gravity were larger or smaller.
We know what would happen if the atomic force were larger or smaller.
We know what would happen if .... etc. etc. etc.

There is one unique value for all of this stuff that produces anything but black holes, or dust. Black holes exist, we know there is no life in black holes.... dust exists, has existed for billions of years, no life has evolved on the dust - we know what would develope given slight changes to any of the fine tuned constants - and it is not life.

We have computer sims etc. etc. that can show exactly what the universe would be like given different sets of variables - not one of them produces life.

There is only one set of variables that works - it is not like a different value for gravity would produce a slightly different alien world... ALL values of g that are too high all produce the same thing - black holes... ALL values that are too small produce THE SAME THING - dust (no stars, no planets, no moons, just dust) there is only ONE value that creates anything other than dust/black holes - that is what we have.... not just gravity, ALL of the fine tuned constants are like this....

Only one value that creates the periodic table of elements (only one type of atom would exist at any other value)
Only ONE value that creates any of it....
We exist at a unique singularity.

You have avoided answering the question, because the answer is - there is no other set of constants that can produce life. (and it is possible to go through and calculate/simulate what other laws/constants would create)

I really don't think anyone knows that, let alone you.

 

[outhouse]

Life is an incredible thing. I for one will not underestimate the creative abilities of that which lives. Why do you believe that there is an upper bound to life? Do you honestly believe that we are the most advanced beings in the universe?

upper bound? please clarify

most advanced, nope i sure dont.

doesnt mean they created the universe lol

other life forms would have evolved like us

 

[Autodidact]

It is very simple, if you see something that looks designed, it probably is.

And you base this on...?

If that's your "Intelligent Design Theory," it's a flop.

 

[skydivephil]

The multiverse is considered plausible becuase its seems an almost inetivatble conseuqence of inflationary cosmology which has good evidence behind it. What's that got to do with ID?

 

[evolved yet?]

The main reason is that it is thought that if there was only one shot at getting a universe it would be impossibly unlikely to come out as a life supporting universe and the only alternative to a fine-tuned universe is considered a universe that has had many "attempts" (I was searching for a better word that is not a personification but I couldn't think of one off the top of my head) at getting a universe that could support life.

 

[skydivephil]

That doenst mena belieivng in a multiverse means you believe in ID.

 

[evolved yet?]

No we are saying it is the best alternative to ID.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

IMO the "intelligent design" theory of the universe carries any more credibility than an "intelligent design" theory of a certain terrestrial planet would in ancient Greece. If our civilization was completely oblivious to the existence of dead planets such a Mercury, Venus and Mars then many philosophers could be using our earth as evidence of intelligent design even with evolution taken into account. Since it has become abundantly clear the dead planets do exist we have undergone a paradigm shift from an intelligently designed friendly planet to an intelligent designed friendly universe, but too many people do not consider the possibility of dead universes beyond this one just as we already well aware there are dead planets.

 

[outhouse]

in my opinion since creation is just primitive myths for what we did not know at the time, id is just a evolved myth.

you can watch a myth grow all you want its still a myth.

planet myths , universe myth, mankind myth.

myth