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Atheist Myth: “No One Has Ever Killed in the Name of Atheism”

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Misery loves company. Sometimes we sabotage ourselves.

Sure. That is my point also, although I will not term it sabotage. I will use the word 'helpless'. Allow me to state my view.

The default sensual perception of everyone is "I am this body". Consequently, all our actions and reactions are built around defending and furthering the affairs of the body and anything related to it. We are helpless if faces with conflict or war. Or we may be helpless with hatred, greed, lust etc. In this case, there is no inhibition other than the sense of potential pain to self (if one can imagine well). But we have bitter memories of two world wars and incessant hostilities that plague the current world. Are these animosities 'religion' driven or are these ultimately and fundamentally due to wrong idea of self?

On the other hand, religions, by default, teach "You are not the body" and "Do unto others what you want to be done to yourself". There is strong teaching that the same spirit abides in all. Although often the ideas of hatred etc. will overcome a seeker, with practice and patience one can, however, internalize these teachings. So, in this case, there may be a barrier against instinctive reactions.

...
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The Crusades were initiated by the Eastern Roman Emperor Manuel,...

In other words, the Crusades were motivated by the Eastern Roman Emperor's political need to regain lost provinces, and the Latin's political independence. Therefore, they were not caused by religion, and were not predominantly religious in nature.


Wow! I guess your knowledge of the Crusades is far greater and more accurate than the knowledge of just about everyone else.

The Crusades were organized by western European Christians after centuries of Muslim wars of expansion. Their primary objectives were to stop the expansion of Muslim states, to reclaim for Christianity the Holy Land in the Middle East, and to recapture territories that had formerly been Christian.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Crusades
Crusades | Definition, History, Facts, Summary, & Legacy ...

The Crusades: Causes & Goals
The Crusades were a series of military campaigns organised by Christian powers in order to retake Jerusalem and the Holy Land back from Muslim control.

https://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages/crusades
The Crusades were a series of religious wars between Christians and Muslims started primarily to secure control of holy sites considered sacred by both groups.

Causes of the Crusades
The crusades are one of the most significant events in the history of Europe and the Middle East. They were a series of religious wars carried out by Christian crusaders from Europe during the timeframe of the Middle Ages.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Sigh. I do not like sweet language. I can say that what you refer to as gilded faeces is the particular Spartan golden rule. Not the general golden rule.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That is the so-called golden rule. But those people who want to get covid need to stay away because I don't want it. This is why the golden rule is actually gilded faeces, because proper morality cannot begin and end with considerations of what "I" want.
 
Again
:facepalm:

As i have already explained to you, the purpose of my reference was to prove you wrong, which it did and no amount of foot stomping and ignoring what doesn't suit your ego is going to make any difference to that fact.

End of story

Moving on past the Trumpian 'look over there' strawman.

Other than the imaginary 80 million already shown to be completely false, let's look at the next 5 highest and evaluate your claims to be presenting a fair minded average based on years of extensive research of critical historical scholarship.

List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll - Wikipedia

Congolese Genocide (King Leopold II): 13,000,000

Min: 3m
Ave: 6.2m
Max:13m
Christine: 13m

(Not to mention it was obviously not religiously motivated)

Thirty Years War: 11,500,000

Min: 3m
Ave: 5.8m
Max: 11.5m
Christine: 11.5m

The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000

Min: 4.2m
Ave: 5.1m
Max 6.2m
Christine: 6.5m

(Also obviously not a persecution by a religious group)

The Crusades: 6,000,000

Min: 1m
Ave: 2m
Max: 3m
Christine: 6m

French Wars of Religion: 4,000,000

Min: 2m
Ave: 2.8m
Max: 4m
Christine: 4m

Overall
Min: 13.2m
Ave: 21.9m
Max: 37.8m
Christine: 41m

thinking-face_1f914.png


Your "fair and balanced average" based on years of scrupulously impartial hunting after truth happens to be nearly double the average and even significantly exceeds the maximum. Quelle suprise... :openmouth:

Any joy in finding your phantom 600 million deaths btw? Or can we just agree that you are being somewhat economical with the truth, seeing as we both know this has always been the case anyway ;)
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That is the so-called golden rule. But those people who want to get covid need to stay away because I don't want it. This is why the golden rule is actually gilded faeces, because proper morality cannot begin and end with considerations of what "I" want.

Are you very angry? Who wants COVID? No one.

Some people surely want that the poor should face the risk so that the agenda of the monied continues. They will be safe in their isolated ivory towers when the common people will toil and get exposed. That is certainly not an application of the golden rule.

It is the exact thing, I am talking about. Those believing truly in the golden rule will not put anyone at risk.

It may sound maudlin but such a perfection can only come when one understands the interdependence at the deepest level of monism.

...
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Who wants COVID
Some people have been wanting to get this believing it will make them immune. They also have been trying to expose their kids, in a similar manner to how they all lock their kids in a room with a kid who has chickenpox.
Those believing truly in the golden rule will not put anyone at risk.
I have provided two real world examples on why the Golden Rule fails. Proper moral considerations cannot begin and end with what "I" want. It justifies those picking fights who want to fight
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Some people have been wanting to get this believing it will make them immune. They also have been trying to expose their kids, in a similar manner to how they all lock their kids in a room with a kid who has chickenpox.

I have provided two real world examples on why the Golden Rule fails. Proper moral considerations cannot begin and end with what "I" want. It justifies those picking fights who want to fight

In the case of chickenpox, it is a known way to acquire immunity. But in the case of COVID, such a strategy is not tested. If some people are doing it on their own children they are mistaken (but maybe they are not forcing it on others) and that is not proof against golden rule. OTOH, politicians-industrialists who want the working class exposed while they skim the profits are against application of the golden rule.

YMMV.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Min: 4.2m
Ave: 5.1m
Max 6.2m
Christine: 6.5m

(Also obviously not a persecution by a religious group)

Pardon the intrusion. Are you serious when you say the Holocaust was not religiously inspired?

Hitler - Mein Kampf
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord [p. 60].

Martin Luther
First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians


In 1938, Hitler’s propagandists highlighted the fact that the infamous Kristallnacht (Night of Broken Glass) of Nov. 9-10 — when Nazis burned synagogues and smashed the windows of Jewish-owned shops, leaving more than 1,000 synagogues ablaze or smoldering — fell on the reformer’s [Martin Luther's] birthday.
 
Is that why the Christian god is plastered in all throughout Mein Kampf and the Nazis wore these?
ww1-prussian-m-1915-steel-belt-buckle-gott-mit-uns-1-170x170.JPG

Why would an arch-propagandist lie about something in order to help gain power?

Hitler's public statements before gaining power are very different to his private statements and public statements after gaining power.


"In August 1920, Hitler viciously attacked the Jews in his speech, “Why Are We Anti-Semites?” One accusation he leveled was that the Jews had used Christianity to destroy the Roman Empire. He then claimed Christianity was spread primarily by Jews”

"In August 1924, while he was in Landsberg Prison, Hitler privately told Hess about having to camouflage his opposition to religion, just as he had to hide his enmity toward alcohol. Hitler had remained silent while Hess and fellow Nazis discussed their positions vis-à-vis the Protestant Church, but later he told Hess how he felt. Even though Hitler found playing a religious hypocrite distasteful, he dared not criticize the church, because he knew this might alienate people.”

From the unpublished follow up to Mein Kampf:

"A philosophy [Christianity] filled with infernal intolerance will only be broken by a new idea, driven forward by the same spirit, championed by the same mighty will, and at the same time pure and absolutely genuine in itself. The individual may establish with pain today that with the appearance of Christianity the first spiritual terror entered in to the far freer ancient world, but he will not be able to contest the fact that since then the world has been afflicted and dominated by this coercion, and that coercion is broken only by coercion, and terror only by terror. Only then can a new state of affairs be constructively created."

Hitler youth Song:

We are the joyful Hitler Youth
We need no Christian virtue
For our Führer Adolf Hitler
Is ever our Mediator.
No pastor, no evil one, can hinder
Us from feeling as Hitler’s children.
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and holy water.
The church can be taken away from me,
The swastika is redemption on the earth,
It will I follow everywhere,
Baldur von Schirach [leader of the Hitler Youth], take me along



In the end, the evidence is preponderant against Hitler embracing any form of Christianity for most of his adult life. Even though he tried to palm himself off as a Christian when it served his political purposes, none of his friends and comrades considered him one. Even though he never officially left the Catholic Church, Schroeder claimed he promised to withdraw from the church immediately after the war to symbolize the dawn of a new historical era.125 All of Hitler’s close associates agreed with Schroeder, testifying that he was antagonistic toward Christianity. He admired the whip-wielding Jesus, whom he considered a fellow Aryan warrior fighting against the allegedly infernal Jews, but he had utter contempt for the Jesus who told His followers to love their enemies and turn the other cheek. He also did not believe that Jesus’s death had any significance other than showing the perfidy of the Jews, nor did he believe in Jesus’s resurrection. In private conversations and monologues he railed at Christianity because it had followed the lead of that insidious Jewish rabbi Paul. Despite Hitler’s disingenuous public statements, and despite his esteem for (his anti-Semitic version of) Jesus, it is abundantly clear that Hitler did not consider himself a Christian.

Richard Weikart - “Hitler's Religion”
 
Are you serious when you say the Holocaust was not religiously inspired?

The main architects of the holocaust (Himmler, Heydrich, Hitler, etc.) were certainly not doing so out of Christian religious fervour.

No doubt anti-semitism in Germany drew significantly on a Christian legacy, as well as factors deriving from WW1 and Communism. It also drew heavily on scientific racialist theories (viewed as actual science back then). Significantly, racialist theories of Jewishness meant it was an immutable characteristic, rather than a heretical belief system that could be (forcibly) converted away.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Why would an arch-propagandist lie about something in order to help gain power?

Hitler's public statements before gaining power are very different to his private statements and public statements after gaining power.


"In August 1920, Hitler viciously attacked the Jews in his speech, “Why Are We Anti-Semites?” One accusation he leveled was that the Jews had used Christianity to destroy the Roman Empire. He then claimed Christianity was spread primarily by Jews”

"In August 1924, while he was in Landsberg Prison, Hitler privately told Hess about having to camouflage his opposition to religion, just as he had to hide his enmity toward alcohol. Hitler had remained silent while Hess and fellow Nazis discussed their positions vis-à-vis the Protestant Church, but later he told Hess how he felt. Even though Hitler found playing a religious hypocrite distasteful, he dared not criticize the church, because he knew this might alienate people.”

From the unpublished follow up to Mein Kampf:

"A philosophy [Christianity] filled with infernal intolerance will only be broken by a new idea, driven forward by the same spirit, championed by the same mighty will, and at the same time pure and absolutely genuine in itself. The individual may establish with pain today that with the appearance of Christianity the first spiritual terror entered in to the far freer ancient world, but he will not be able to contest the fact that since then the world has been afflicted and dominated by this coercion, and that coercion is broken only by coercion, and terror only by terror. Only then can a new state of affairs be constructively created."

Hitler youth Song:

We are the joyful Hitler Youth
We need no Christian virtue
For our Führer Adolf Hitler
Is ever our Mediator.
No pastor, no evil one, can hinder
Us from feeling as Hitler’s children.
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and holy water.
The church can be taken away from me,
The swastika is redemption on the earth,
It will I follow everywhere,
Baldur von Schirach [leader of the Hitler Youth], take me along



In the end, the evidence is preponderant against Hitler embracing any form of Christianity for most of his adult life. Even though he tried to palm himself off as a Christian when it served his political purposes, none of his friends and comrades considered him one. Even though he never officially left the Catholic Church, Schroeder claimed he promised to withdraw from the church immediately after the war to symbolize the dawn of a new historical era.125 All of Hitler’s close associates agreed with Schroeder, testifying that he was antagonistic toward Christianity. He admired the whip-wielding Jesus, whom he considered a fellow Aryan warrior fighting against the allegedly infernal Jews, but he had utter contempt for the Jesus who told His followers to love their enemies and turn the other cheek. He also did not believe that Jesus’s death had any significance other than showing the perfidy of the Jews, nor did he believe in Jesus’s resurrection. In private conversations and monologues he railed at Christianity because it had followed the lead of that insidious Jewish rabbi Paul. Despite Hitler’s disingenuous public statements, and despite his esteem for (his anti-Semitic version of) Jesus, it is abundantly clear that Hitler did not consider himself a Christian.

Richard Weikart - “Hitler's Religion”
None of that dismisses the deep Christian roots and ties of the Nazis. It's like trying to dismiss the Christianity that is a big part of Trump supporters because Trump said he has personally never done anything to ask forgiveness for.
 
None of that dismisses the deep Christian roots and ties of the Nazis. It's like trying to dismiss the Christianity that is a big part of Trump supporters because Trump said he has personally never done anything to ask forgiveness for.

Might be similar if Trump wanted to purge America of Christianity and surrounded himself with anti-Christians who wanted to do likewise.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Might be similar if Trump wanted to purge America of Christianity and surrounded himself with anti-Christians who wanted to do likewise.
Trump is using Christianity more or less like Hitler did. Sure, Hitler himself does appear to have been "Volkish" than anything. But that doesnt change the fact he did lead a group who thought themselves doing their duty for Jehovah and Germany.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I've heard the argumemt many times that injustices occur often in the name of religion, but I've found it interesting that the same could also be said about Atheism. So what is true about Atheistic ideologies.

What about those who have died in the name of atheistic philosophies such as:

"marxism, socialism, communism, maoism, Nazism, fascism, totalitarianism, libertarianism, monopolistic capitalism, robber barronism, industrialization, secularism, jingoism, anarchism, social darwinism, eugenics, malthusianism, messianic scientism, nihilism, anti-humanist terrorism, individualism, narcissism, physicalism, materialism, consumerism, modernism, postmodernism, nietzscheism, Marquis de Sade's sadism, (i.e., sadistic murders) moral relativism, hedonism, radical feminism, (i.e., abortions, infanticide, suicide, false claims of rape) radical environmentalism, (i.e., ecological terrorism) Anton LaVey's satanism, (i.e., ritual murders) and the "Law of Attraction." (i.e., the deaths, including suicides, caused by Peter Popoff, Sylvia Browne and other gurus") All of these atheistic philosophies have resulted in the deaths of countless hundreds of millions of human beings. In comparison, the deaths caused by religion seem almost quaint and insignificant."

...What do you say about the hundreds of millions of deaths from the above? Which come from the source below..?

Atheist Myth: “No One Has Ever Killed in the Name of Atheism”

I am sure someone somewhere may have killed in the name of atheism...but I don't know of any cases. Others can feel free to list some (don't confuse political or social movements with atheism). Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god. I cannot think of a reason why that would require the death of someone. But if you are trying to demonstrate that atheists can be as cruel and evil as religious people, I am already on board, and I'm an atheist. Theists are people.....atheists are people. Why does it matter who killed whom?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.

The point is that religion has had so much influence over society, particularly it's morality, and this is why atheists like Marx, Lenin, Nietzsche, Feuerbach, Schopenhauer, etc. considered the implications of their belief that there was no God within their philosophies and moralities.

Our belief systems are as much comprised as what we reject or are against, as what we are in favour of. Believing there is no god is not an inert, monadic, belief that exists in a vacuum, but something that may forms part of much broader worldview.

It's all very well documented if you care to actually use your 'questioning mind'... ;)

It doesn't mean 'atheism is evil' (I'm an atheist after all), or "mere disbelief in god makes you kill people", it's just a very well documented historical fact that many people have long considered the philosophical implications of their belief that there is no god or higher power. Is that really so hard to grasp?



You are right, it was not about a 'lack of belief' but a very strong belief that there is no god. Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin et al did not have a 'lack of belief'.

Lenin: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism"

Was he not explicit enough? Or are you saying you know more about Lenin's thoughts than Lenin did? Or are you saying it was just state propaganda? Or...?

NI Bukharin and E Preobrazhensky: The ABC of Communism: "Many weak-kneed communists reason as follows: 'Religion does not prevent my being a communist. I believe both in God and in communism. My faith in God does not hinder me from fighting for the cause of the proletarian revolution.'

This train of thought is radically false. Religion and communism are incompatible, both theoretically and practically."



Still too esoteric?


Marx (writing 70 years before the Russian Revolution in an unpublished philosophical text called 'Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right' thus obviously not state propaganda): "The criticism of religion leads to the doctrine according to which man is, for man, the supreme being; therefore it reaches the categorical imperative of overthrowing all relationships in which man is a degraded, enslaved, abandoned, contemptible being...

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo...

It is, therefore, the task of history, once the other-world of truth has vanished, to establish the truth of this world. It is the immediate task of philosophy, which is in the service of history, to unmask self-estrangement in its unholy forms once the holy form of human self-estrangement has been unmasked. Thus, the criticism of Heaven turns into the criticism of Earth, the criticism of religion into the criticism of law, and the criticism of theology into the criticism of politics."


QM: DisBeliEf iN GoD WasN't EssEntiAL tO tHe SyStEm

It wasn't just some sneaky ruse to reduce the power of a competitor, it was based on one of the fundamental tenets of a philosophy articulated long before there was even a Communist Party, never mind an actual government. Again, it's not hard to grasp, they weren't exactly secretive about it.

If your mind is even remotely questioning, you might want to question why it is that so many of these key Marxist figures explicitly view disbelief in god as a fundamental component of their belief system while you insist it is purely incidental despite not being particularly well versed in the subject.

You are right, it was not about a 'lack of belief' but a very strong belief that there is no god. Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin et al did not have a 'lack of belief'.

Lenin: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism"

If Lenin wants to misrepresent what atheism is by claiming that his anti-theism/anti-religion stance is 'atheism' he's welcome to... but that doesn't mean I have to allow his misrepresentation to go unchallenged.

You're right, Lenin and Co. did NOT just have a simple lack of belief in any god or gods, which is ALL atheism is... they had a strong BELIEF that religion was a bad influence on society and needed to be eradicated. It was this strong BELIEF that religion was bad that they killed in the name of. And of course, they had a good argument for that, since the religion they dealt with was a tool of the aristocracy that they were fighting against. The Church claimed that the Czar they wanted people to rise up against was appointed by God, so OF COURSE they had to be against the Church as well. They killed people in the name of their BELIEF that the religion was wrong, but NO ONE killed ANYONE based on their LACK of belief in god.

So to sum up... people HAVE killed in the name of anti-theism... but NO ONE has EVER killed in the name of a LACK of BELIEF in god. Lacking a belief in God in no way shape or form leads to wanting to kill people.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I don't know why people keep bringing up those belt buckles as if they mean something. The Nazis didn't come up with it. It was in use for a long time before them. It was just a traditional heraldry thing.

Gott mit uns - Wikipedia
It is what they believed. Sort of like Evangelical Christians today have to put god on everything, from courthouses to schools, money and the pledge. And, of course Trump isn't really a Christian, but a massive chunk of his supporters are, and though he only pays a Machavelian sort of lip service to them, they believe he is Christian and that god annointed him and guides him.
Just like Hitler paying lip service to them though he cursed them behind closed doors.
 
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