Atheist intolerance?

[Me Myself]

Ok, well I can only disagree here.



And why should it bother those that don't?



I suspect there are many more important things to worry about with regard to what is happening to our taxpayer dollars than whether some school in RI has a prayer banner on it's wall.

Of course you are free to to express the horrific harm this causes you or causes some other individual. I still don't see it. I mean so what. If they left it up another 100 years, is it going to destroy the country or something?



While I agree they may not know how to be moral without God but then I certainly don't what to be taking God away from them. This seems the more harmful an action in that case.

They are voluntarily and chronically going against the law so to favour one specific religion on PUBLIC property.

Those same christians would bash the school if the prayer was to "Mother of Heaven" or to Ganesha. Or if it was the buddha quote of not believing anyone just because they are your teacher or they say they are wise or they sar they are a priest.

It´s in public property.

The specific reason of why they are so pathetic without the God concept is because they have been made dependant on them. Now the public property is enhancing that dependance every time the prayer was sustained.

 

[Nakosis]

One would think that when a person uses an analogy, they have some meaning behind it. Odd that you didn't.

I get the impression that you're in this thread just to be argumentative and aren't actually trying to put forward any coherent position.

I get the impression your fishing for some reason to criticize my posts but since you're having a bit of trouble doing so decided to attack me instead.

 

[gnomon]

Doesn't provide a reason to make it worse.



To what benefit? What harm is cause by a prayer banner on the wall of a public school?

That little atheist girl being a bit too uppity for ya?

 

[Nakosis]

They are voluntarily and chronically going against the law so to favour one specific religion on PUBLIC property.

I suspect they probably never thought of it as harmful.

Those same christians would bash the school if the prayer was to "Mother of Heaven" or to Ganesha. Or if it was the buddha quote of not believing anyone just because they are your teacher or they say they are wise or they sar they are a priest.

You don't know that is true. Don't make the same mistake I made in thinking these Christians are less tolerant then they are.

It´s in public property.

I've got a great solution for that.

The specific reason of why they are so pathetic without the God concept is because they have been made dependant on them. Now the public property is enhancing that dependance every time the prayer was sustained.

Well ok, I didn't want to see the Christians running amok. However truthfully they are turning out to be more tolerant then I thought to give them credit. My bad.:sorry1:

So I actually take back my original objection to her actions.

 

[Nakosis]

That little atheist girl being a bit too uppity for ya?

Nope, just didn't see any great benefit in her actions. However Christian leaders are now using her actions to preach tolerance. So it's all good.:angel2:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't know that is true. Don't make the same mistake I made in thinking these Christians are less tolerant then they are.

Here's one measure of the tolerance of the Christians in question:

Atheist teen still getting threats over campaign to remove prayer banner while vowing she will not leave school

An atheist student who successfully pushed to remove a religious banner from her Rhode Island high school as a separation of church and state says she does plan to graduate and not transfer despite increasing threats.

Jessica Ahlquist, 16, was not in school this past week telling WPRO that she was 'trying to figure some things out' while local florists refused to send her deliveries and police concluded an investigation on harassment.

[...]

One woman posted her reaction to Miss Ahlquist's efforts over Twitter writing: 'I hope there's lots of banners in Hell when you're rotting in there you atheist f***.'

Another sent her a message saying: 'How does it feel to be the most hated person in RI? You're a puke and a disgrace to the human race.'

[...]

Since Miss Ahlquist sued the school for the prayer banner's removal, protesters have expressed their anger through online commentary, cruel messages, thwarted yet planned student walk outs, and even t-shirts supporting the banner's display though also expected removal.
Last week school officials working with local police led an investigation over possibly threatening or harassing online messages and postings toward Miss Ahlquist.

It resulted in one student's internal discipline, according to The Providence Journal.
Four separate florists in Rhode Island also refused to make deliveries to the student leading to a formal complaint filed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation accusing 'illegal discrimination based on religion,' according to the Examiner.


[...]

Combating the ruling's criticism, Miss Ahlquist's supporters have raised over $30,000 in a scholarship fund for her through tee-shirts reading 'Evil Little Thing.'
Those three words were used to describe her in a recent radio talk show by Democrat Cranston Representative Peter Palumbo, according to WPRO.

Atheist teen still getting threats over campaign to remove prayer banner while vowing she will not leave school | Mail Online

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nope, just didn't see any great benefit in her actions.

For starters, it takes away a symbol that, by its presence, said that disobeying the highest law of the land is no big deal... and in an institution that's supposed to be in the business of instilling character in children, no less.

However Christian leaders are now using her actions to preach tolerance. So it's all good.:angel2:

What do you think the ratio is of Christian leaders who have responded to this issue by preaching tolerance to those who have responded by preaching intolerance?

 

[Nakosis]

Here's one measure of the tolerance of the Christians in question:

Atheist teen still getting threats over campaign to remove prayer banner while vowing she will not leave school | Mail Online

In any group there's usually going to be a few dozen nuts. However one can't judge the entire group by the nuts.

That's why I've been referring the the Church leaders. Hopefully they'll reign in the nuts.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In any group there's usually going to be a few dozen nuts. However one can't judge the entire group by the nuts.

That's why I've been referring the the Church leaders. Hopefully they'll reign in the nuts.

Please provide some support for your assertion that only "a few dozen nuts" have responded intolerantly to this case.

 

[Nakosis]

In any group there's usually going to be a few dozen nuts. However one can't judge the entire group by the nuts.

That's why I've been referring the the Church leaders. Hopefully they'll reign in the nuts.

About 18 clergy members from a number of faiths stood on the steps of the Edgewood Congregational Church in Cranston to call for an end to the verbal abuse and threats directed toward Jessica Ahlquist, 16, who has been the target of classmates, talk show callers and others unhappy with the federal court ruling that held a prayer banner at her Cranston High School West school must be removed.
“We come as faith leaders in good conscience to speak to all those who are intolerant, to please be intolerant, stop the verbal abuse, stop the threats,” said Reverend Matthew Kai, Pastor of the Tabernacle Baptist Church of Providence and the immediate past president of the Rhode Island State Council of Churches.
“We are not strangers coming from outside,” said Rev. Dr. Don Anderson, Executive Minister of the rhode Island State Council of Churches, and a 1966 graduate of Cranston High School West. “We love Rhode Island, we love Cranston, and we believe that the majority of people in this fair city want the hateful speech to stop.”
“Crucify her, crucify her, cry those who fear the future, and hold on to the past,” said Rev. Betsy Garland, President of the Rhode Island State Council of Churches and interim pastor of the Riverside Congregational Church, United Church of Christ. “Today, we are all Jessica Ahlquist.”
“It is Jessica today,” said Rev. Kai, “it could be me tomorrow.”
​

RI Religious Leaders Call for End to Threats | Dispatches from the Culture Wars
​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

18 people? That isn't even your "few dozen".

 

[Nakosis]

Please provide some support for your assertion that only "a few dozen nuts" have responded intolerantly to this case.

Please, that's not what I asserted.
Sorry, I really don't feel like defending your strawman, so have a nice day.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Please, that's not what I asserted.
Sorry, I really don't feel like defending your strawman, so have a nice day.

If I didn't get your intended meaning, I wouldn't object if you re-phrase things more clearly.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Doesn't provide a reason to make it worse.

She didn't make it worse, they did. Like I said, they could have chosen to respond in a more adult fashion but instead, they chose to respond with animosity and rancor.

Do you understand that the insults and threats she received for doing this is precisely the reason why she did it? As I said, there was dislike for atheists long before we started hearing about these kinds of cases. We've been reading and hearing for years about atheist kids being ridiculed in school, adults being ridiculed, harassed or discriminated against at work, and entire families being ostracized by their communities.

I've never experienced anything as bad as that but I'll tell you something that's happened to me on two occasions. During a conversation with a Christian I would mention that I'm an atheist and the response was: "Really? Well, that doesn't change how I feel about you." Now take a minute and think about what that seemingly tolerant statement implies. Why would it change how they felt about me unless they had preconceptions about the morality of atheists? Furthermore, the fact that they didn't even know I was an atheist until I told them speaks volumes about the difference between the morality that is actually demonstrated by atheists and what Christians think about atheist morality.

Christians in this country have demonstrated again and again that they feel they are the moral authority and that this should not be questioned. When it IS questioned, watch the claws come out. The reactions we get over things like this is exactly why we need to do things like this; to remind a certain group of Christians that they are in fact, not the moral authority.

Through no fault of their own, atheists have been put in a position of having to go after the Christian moral hegemony through the courts because just telling them that atheists are just as moral as they are doesn't work.

To what benefit? What harm is cause by a prayer banner on the wall of a public school?

On the surface, none. But beneath the surface it perpetuates the myth that Christian morality is better or that basic moral and ethical principles are rooted in Christianity.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Personally I think that Atheistic individuals are just as likely to feel strongly enough about their position that they feel the need to tell people that their position is the most desirable position (usually in terms of logic/science etc) but perhaps more likely to point out the problems that they perceive in alternative positions. This is purely my own opinion, however I think that most people who are atheists, particularly 'converts' have gone through a process that encourages scepticism and they feel this to be a healthy thing to convey to others. Theists may actually feel more driven to tell people about their own position, however they seem FME less concerned with addressing alternative positions in general, unless explicitly addressed - with the exception of atheism as it has historically been diametrically opposed. That doesn't mean that these outspoken intolerant Theists are less prevalent, only that they constitute a smaller portion of their population.

IMO the major difference however is in how that intolerance manifests itself; in atheists this intolerance might go so far as heated words and insults, but is extremely unlikely to go any further unless the individual has some other significant issue; in theists this intolerance is almost as likely to result in heated words and insults, however is more likely to result in the use of force (both from individuals and societies).

 

[Falvlun]

Actually, I thought that was actually one of the problems with the original banner: It makes those virtues something that God has to give you, rather than something you need to cultivate on your own.

Ok, why should I accept these things should be cultivated? You assume, maybe, this is a given for everyone. I don't think it is.

That's fine, but that's not what we were debating. You stated that many people needed or wanted a higher power to assist them. This assumes that these people wanted to cultivate those virtues.

If motivation is needed, then society itself should reinforce them: You'll go further and likely have a happier life if you are a kind person, attend to your studies, develop friendships, etc. And nobody likes sore losers or sore winners, and many sports have rules against poor sportsmanship. How's that not motivation?

Says who? How do you know I won't be happier being rich and powerful and feared? I get what I want, people do what I say. Same results, doesn't matter whether people like me or not.

Again, not what we were debating. You wanted to know what else could motivate a person to develop these virtues, if God was removed from the banner. Those are possibilities. They might not motivate everyone, but then again, God in the banner's not going to motivate everyone either.

And if you are of the religious bent, and feel that God's blessing and aid is necessary for you to obtain those things, then nobody is stopping you from praying for them yourself.

Not everybody in the world has good intentions. A lot of people can be downright nasty and evil. And, why shouldn't they be? If they are smart enough to get away with it.

And one more time: not what we were debating. You claimed that some people required God to obtain those virtues that the school felt were good for people to develop. And I replied that those people are still more than welcome to ask God for aid. Nasty people aren't even in discussion here: if they don't value the virtues to begin with, they aren't going to cultivate them on their own OR ask god to aid them in such an attempt.

 

[Willamena]

If I didn't get your intended meaning, I wouldn't object if you re-phrase things more clearly.

He just expressed an opinion that there are a few bad apples in every bushel.

 

[Valjean]

Personally I think that Atheistic individuals are just as likely to feel strongly enough about their position that they feel the need to tell people that their position is the most desirable position (usually in terms of logic/science etc) but perhaps more likely to point out the problems that they perceive in alternative positions. This is purely my own opinion, however I think that most people who are atheists, particularly 'converts' have gone through a process that encourages scepticism and they feel this to be a healthy thing to convey to others. Theists may actually feel more driven to tell people about their own position, however they seem FME less concerned with addressing alternative positions in general, unless explicitly addressed - with the exception of atheism as it has historically been diametrically opposed. That doesn't mean that these outspoken intolerant Theists are less prevalent, only that they constitute a smaller portion of their population.

IMO the major difference however is in how that intolerance manifests itself; in atheists this intolerance might go so far as heated words and insults, but is extremely unlikely to go any further unless the individual has some other significant issue; in theists this intolerance is almost as likely to result in heated words and insults, however is more likely to result in the use of force (both from individuals and societies).

I feel no more desire to share my non-belief in Jehovah than I do to share my non-belief in the tooth fairy or unicorns. As far as intolerance, what do I care what you believe?
"It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." as Jefferson put it.

 

[K.Venugopal]

What about The National Prayer Breakfast that is coming up? The National Prayer Breakfast, I understand (from Wikipedia, where else?) is hosted by members of the United States Congress and is organized on their behalf by The Fellowship Foundation, a conservative Christian organization more widely known as "The Family". Initially called the Presidential Prayer Breakfast, the name was changed in 1970 to the National Prayer Breakfast. The breakfast is regarded by the Family as merely a tool in a larger purpose: to recruit the powerful attendees into smaller, more frequent prayer meetings, where they can 'meet Jesus man to man. Since the inception of the National Prayer Breakfast, several U.S. states and cities and other countries have established their own annual prayer breakfast events.

Is there a mixing of State and Church here?

 

[Kathryn]

You know what - people are too easily offended and "righteously angered" and that goes for both the religious and non religious folks.

I think the school was stupid to tempt fate by allowing that silly banner to hang in the hallway. I also think it's a bit over the top for anyone to feel threatened by it, but from a strictly legal point of view Jessica is correct, however overly sensitive she may be.

Here's the banner by the way. SCARY. Not. But definitely politically incorrect.

That being said, I hope she doesn't plan on moving to St Petersburg, or St Louis, or San Francisco. Next thing we know, she'll be in court demanding that the city names be changed because they're named after "saints."

And keep away from New Orleans!