Atheist but...

[Cephus]

Can you show me who I should take this up with? Who sees a spiritual experience as not a human experience, besides yourself making that distinction earlier? I'm not aware of anyone who says what they feel, isn't what they feel.

Human experiences, at least as far as I'm concerned, are natural experiences. There are plenty of people out there who think that spiritual experiences are somehow supernatural. They're not hard to find, just look around.

 

[Deidre]

Can you show me who I should take this up with? Who sees a spiritual experience as not a human experience, besides yourself making that distinction earlier? I'm not aware of anyone who says what they feel, isn't what they feel.

The only thing that springs to mind, is because I was steeped in Christianity since childhood, it's hard to imagine anything termed 'spiritual' as anything less than deism. (or theism) I mean, I have turned away from that thinking NOW...but, just saying, I never really viewed spirituality as being a human experience, until just very recently.

 

[Windwalker]

The only thing that springs to mind, is because I was steeped in Christianity since childhood, it's hard to imagine anything termed 'spiritual' as anything less than deism. (or theism) I mean, I have turned away from that thinking NOW...but, just saying, I never really viewed spirituality as being a human experience, until just very recently.

That seems totally foreign to me. How is a spiritual experience, not a human experience of the spiritual? What, do they believe its some sort of possession? An out of body sort of thing that is not experienced as a human? The very word experience means it is a human experience. You cannot have any experience whatsoever as a human without it being a human experience. It's not the experience of a cat or a dog. It's a human experience of the spiritual. It's no different than saying love is a human experience of love.

Not even when I was a Christian did I every think a spiritual experience was not my own experience as a human. It's no different than saying when I feel rapt awe looking at the universe that I say I am experiencing the universe. I honestly don't follow this thinking otherwise. Whose experience is it then?

 

[Deidre]

Someone sent this to me today, in a pm here...and he said I could share it. It is a very interesting perspective on beliefs and the 'need' for evidence.

I wanted to share something I wrote for people such as yourself:

Let's start with why you are an atheist. It is because you know of no convincing evidence that supports belief in any deity, right? (I will assume you will answer yes as that is what most atheists say)

And you are right! IF what you are looking for is external evidence of an externally existing deity. I mean one can make arguments like the Kalam of the need for a first uncaused cause but even if one will admit to their merit that is a far cry from establishing the existence of any personal deity that interacts with humans. So let's not even go that route.

This idea of God--as an objectively existing external being "out there" somewhere--is where the whole problem starts. Because it can't be evidenced. When we look out into the world we don't see God performing all the miraculous things he is reported to have done in the Bible. Sure there are reports of occasional miracles here and there but nothing that can be scientifically verified. In fact there is not a shred of evidence to support that God ever performed these miraculous feat in the past (I do actually think there is good reason to accept that he did at least one but let's set that aside). And even if God were doing those things would it really prove he exists? Could we absolutely rule out that there might not be some other cause? When this has been discussed before some atheists said that something like rearranging the stars in the heavens to read "I love you" might convince them. But would even something as dramatic as that convince everyone?

So what does that leave us? Only the evidence of internal subjective experience. And of course the atheist response to that is that such is unreliable and it's "all in people's heads". And once again they are absolutely right! It IS all in people's heads because that is the definition of an internal subjective experience!

BUT does that mean those experiences are not real? Of course not! Even a hallucination is a real experience. It just has no external objective reality. So an internal subjective spiritual experience can't be used to verify an eternal, objectively existing deity either. But the good news is THAT DOESN'T MATTER. Because what really matters is that the experience can be experienced and the effects of that experience can have tangible measurable effects!

Am I saying that God does not exist in any external, objective sense? Of course not, I believe he does. But even if he didn't it doesn't really matter. What matters is that God exists in an internal, subjective way. Even if that were the only way God existed it is enough. And in this world it is all we really ever have. That doesn't make God any less real at all. Quite to the contrary. I know that God exists in this way beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is a fact. There is simply no argument that can refute this fact. It's not even a matter of faith but a matter of knowledge.

You don't have to believe in God. You don't have to muster up faith in him. You don't have to go looking for some evidence to try to establish his external objective existence. All you have to do is experience him. Because the experience of God IS God.

How does one do that? By simply going through the motions that people who do believe in God engage in. Prayer, meditation, worship, even things like scripture reading. Anything and everything of a spiritual nature. You may not feel anything the first time. You may be self-conscious and feel stupid. It may take a while before you feel anything at all. But I am firmly convinced that if you stick with it eventually you are going to start to have experiences.
One caveat though is you have to be really open to it. If you put up a wall of skepticism, if you go into it with this idea of testing God to prove himself to you, that won't work.

 

[gsa]

Someone sent this to me today, in a pm here...and he said I could share it. It is a very interesting perspective on beliefs and the 'need' for evidence.

I wanted to share something I wrote for people such as yourself:

Let's start with why you are an atheist. It is because you know of no convincing evidence that supports belief in any deity, right? (I will assume you will answer yes as that is what most atheists say)

And you are right! IF what you are looking for is external evidence of an externally existing deity. I mean one can make arguments like the Kalam of the need for a first uncaused cause but even if one will admit to their merit that is a far cry from establishing the existence of any personal deity that interacts with humans. So let's not even go that route.

This idea of God--as an objectively existing external being "out there" somewhere--is where the whole problem starts. Because it can't be evidenced. When we look out into the world we don't see God performing all the miraculous things he is reported to have done in the Bible. Sure there are reports of occasional miracles here and there but nothing that can be scientifically verified. In fact there is not a shred of evidence to support that God ever performed these miraculous feat in the past (I do actually think there is good reason to accept that he did at least one but let's set that aside). And even if God were doing those things would it really prove he exists? Could we absolutely rule out that there might not be some other cause? When this has been discussed before some atheists said that something like rearranging the stars in the heavens to read "I love you" might convince them. But would even something as dramatic as that convince everyone?

So what does that leave us? Only the evidence of internal subjective experience. And of course the atheist response to that is that such is unreliable and it's "all in people's heads". And once again they are absolutely right! It IS all in people's heads because that is the definition of an internal subjective experience!

BUT does that mean those experiences are not real? Of course not! Even a hallucination is a real experience. It just has no external objective reality. So an internal subjective spiritual experience can't be used to verify an eternal, objectively existing deity either. But the good news is THAT DOESN'T MATTER. Because what really matters is that the experience can be experienced and the effects of that experience can have tangible measurable effects!

Am I saying that God does not exist in any external, objective sense? Of course not, I believe he does. But even if he didn't it doesn't really matter. What matters is that God exists in an internal, subjective way. Even if that were the only way God existed it is enough. And in this world it is all we really ever have. That doesn't make God any less real at all. Quite to the contrary. I know that God exists in this way beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is a fact. There is simply no argument that can refute this fact. It's not even a matter of faith but a matter of knowledge.

You don't have to believe in God. You don't have to muster up faith in him. You don't have to go looking for some evidence to try to establish his external objective existence. All you have to do is experience him. Because the experience of God IS God.

How does one do that? By simply going through the motions that people who do believe in God engage in. Prayer, meditation, worship, even things like scripture reading. Anything and everything of a spiritual nature. You may not feel anything the first time. You may be self-conscious and feel stupid. It may take a while before you feel anything at all. But I am firmly convinced that if you stick with it eventually you are going to start to have experiences.
One caveat though is you have to be really open to it. If you put up a wall of skepticism, if you go into it with this idea of testing God to prove himself to you, that won't work.

It is certainly a perspective you seldom hear. But when confronted with this argument from subjective experience, I just wonder, what is the point? I assume that if you engage in those activities you will have something akin to a spiritual experience; I certainly have. But I am more interested in subjective experiences that have some kind of corroboration outside of subjectivity. For me at least, that has usually involved unusual experiences that occur in spatial or temporal proximity to the death of someone close to me, or at least someone I know. I am very open to the idea that this is pure coincidence and it may even be that the meaning I find in the experience is solely the result of subjectivity, but I can contrast it with other altered states of consciousness where I feel "unity" with everything; those have not always carried the same synchronicity.

 

[Marsh]

Hello, I'm new here and have been struggling as of late, with my lack of belief, if you will. I deconverted from Christianity about four years ago, and starting openly identifying myself as an atheist, about two years ago. But, since the summer, I've felt this dull ache or void that I can't quite explain. I'm going to Xmas Eve church service with my dad this year, I haven't been to church in a while. I'm wondering if anyone here who is an atheist, ever experienced this ''struggle'' at times?

I'd appreciate any insight you might be willing to share. Logically, I'm 100% an atheist. There is no logic or reasoning (or truth) behind religion. But, emotionally...that is the tougher part for me. That is what religion once provided to me, a comfort for tough times.

Hi Deidre,
I'm a bit late to the party, but I wanted comment. My initial reaction was to say no, I've never felt an emptiness, but on second thought I must change my response.

I had been an atheist for a couple of years or more when I felt compelled to return to my former belief in God. The problem was I didn't really believe in God, but I wanted to find Him. I threw myself into prayer and Bible reading. It was the summer and I had lots of time on my hands. My brother was convinced it was some kind of protracted prank. I was sixteen, he was eleven, and he'd come into our bedroom at night to find me on my knees praying. Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened. That is what I had been taught in Sunday school. After two weeks the effort collapsed. In reading the Old Testament I discovered for myself the deity that Dawkins had mocked on page 31 of The God Delusion, and I decided I had been right all along – there was no god.

You are feeling an emptiness? I think what drove me was a sense of fear. What if I was wrong? That was the question that plagued me and not till I got over that did I find real peace without God. It may be different for you.

 

[gnomon]

Someone sent this to me today, in a pm here...and he said I could share it. It is a very interesting perspective on beliefs and the 'need' for evidence.

I wanted to share something I wrote for people such as yourself:

Let's start with why you are an atheist. It is because you know of no convincing evidence that supports belief in any deity, right? (I will assume you will answer yes as that is what most atheists say)

And you are right! IF what you are looking for is external evidence of an externally existing deity. I mean one can make arguments like the Kalam of the need for a first uncaused cause but even if one will admit to their merit that is a far cry from establishing the existence of any personal deity that interacts with humans. So let's not even go that route.

This idea of God--as an objectively existing external being "out there" somewhere--is where the whole problem starts. Because it can't be evidenced. When we look out into the world we don't see God performing all the miraculous things he is reported to have done in the Bible. Sure there are reports of occasional miracles here and there but nothing that can be scientifically verified. In fact there is not a shred of evidence to support that God ever performed these miraculous feat in the past (I do actually think there is good reason to accept that he did at least one but let's set that aside). And even if God were doing those things would it really prove he exists? Could we absolutely rule out that there might not be some other cause? When this has been discussed before some atheists said that something like rearranging the stars in the heavens to read "I love you" might convince them. But would even something as dramatic as that convince everyone?

So what does that leave us? Only the evidence of internal subjective experience. And of course the atheist response to that is that such is unreliable and it's "all in people's heads". And once again they are absolutely right! It IS all in people's heads because that is the definition of an internal subjective experience!

BUT does that mean those experiences are not real? Of course not! Even a hallucination is a real experience. It just has no external objective reality. So an internal subjective spiritual experience can't be used to verify an eternal, objectively existing deity either. But the good news is THAT DOESN'T MATTER. Because what really matters is that the experience can be experienced and the effects of that experience can have tangible measurable effects!

Am I saying that God does not exist in any external, objective sense? Of course not, I believe he does. But even if he didn't it doesn't really matter. What matters is that God exists in an internal, subjective way. Even if that were the only way God existed it is enough. And in this world it is all we really ever have. That doesn't make God any less real at all. Quite to the contrary. I know that God exists in this way beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is a fact. There is simply no argument that can refute this fact. It's not even a matter of faith but a matter of knowledge.

You don't have to believe in God. You don't have to muster up faith in him. You don't have to go looking for some evidence to try to establish his external objective existence. All you have to do is experience him. Because the experience of God IS God.

How does one do that? By simply going through the motions that people who do believe in God engage in. Prayer, meditation, worship, even things like scripture reading. Anything and everything of a spiritual nature. You may not feel anything the first time. You may be self-conscious and feel stupid. It may take a while before you feel anything at all. But I am firmly convinced that if you stick with it eventually you are going to start to have experiences.
One caveat though is you have to be really open to it. If you put up a wall of skepticism, if you go into it with this idea of testing God to prove himself to you, that won't work.

What an ultimate cop out.

I don't believe that there was some intelligent creator to the entirety of existence. Nor do I have any such belief as to whether or not any such being could possibly exist.

You argue that the Bible may not be real but that our own personal experiences are real. No kidding. That's nothing new. Every philosopher has tackled this question already. Yes, are personal experiences are real and that is how we define ourselves. As to whether or not one person calls it spiritual in the sense of some awe they feel or another calls that experience practical is absolutely irrelevant. It's still a personal experience.

What you are proposing is that although you cannot prove that there is some empirically based divine being that anything we personally experience inwardly is God. Namely, your definition of God.

That is garbage. Your are imposing your own ego upon the rest of humanity and that is the end of that story thank you very much and I will have nothing of it.

Good morning to you.

 

[Deidre]

What an ultimate cop out.

I don't believe that there was some intelligent creator to the entirety of existence. Nor do I have any such belief as to whether or not any such being could possibly exist.

You argue that the Bible may not be real but that our own personal experiences are real. No kidding. That's nothing new. Every philosopher has tackled this question already. Yes, are personal experiences are real and that is how we define ourselves. As to whether or not one person calls it spiritual in the sense of some awe they feel or another calls that experience practical is absolutely irrelevant. It's still a personal experience.

What you are proposing is that although you cannot prove that there is some empirically based divine being that anything we personally experience inwardly is God. Namely, your definition of God.

That is garbage. Your are imposing your own ego upon the rest of humanity and that is the end of that story thank you very much and I will have nothing of it.

Good morning to you.

I'm not sure who you're replying to, me or the person who sent that to me ...someone sent that to me in a pm.

Anyway, I feel that I've been happier in my life as a theist, than I was as an atheist. So, that's that. I've struggled for about a year with all of this, since I left Christianity a few years ago...and now, the struggle is over...

I'm back to ''believing'', and anyone is free to believe as they wish. Yes.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Deidre]

Hi Deidre,
I'm a bit late to the party, but I wanted comment. My initial reaction was to say no, I've never felt an emptiness, but on second thought I must change my response.

I had been an atheist for a couple of years or more when I felt compelled to return to my former belief in God. The problem was I didn't really believe in God, but I wanted to find Him. I threw myself into prayer and Bible reading. It was the summer and I had lots of time on my hands. My brother was convinced it was some kind of protracted prank. I was sixteen, he was eleven, and he'd come into our bedroom at night to find me on my knees praying. Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened. That is what I had been taught in Sunday school. After two weeks the effort collapsed. In reading the Old Testament I discovered for myself the deity that Dawkins had mocked on page 31 of The God Delusion, and I decided I had been right all along – there was no god.

You are feeling an emptiness? I think what drove me was a sense of fear. What if I was wrong? That was the question that plagued me and not till I got over that did I find real peace without God. It may be different for you.

Oh, I appreciate you sharing this! Thank you. Well...I've gone from Christianity, to atheism...to back to believing, and now exploring Islam.

In the end, one of us will be 'right,' I guess? lol We'll know with absolutely certainty ...one day.

 

[Bunyip]

Oh, I appreciate you sharing this! Thank you. Well...I've gone from Christianity, to atheism...to back to believing, and now exploring Islam.

In the end, one of us will be 'right,' I guess? lol We'll know with absolutely certainty ...one day.

Are you really atheist though and just pretending not to be? I ask because you can not simply choose to believe, you either truly believe or you do not.

 

[Deidre]

Are you really atheist though and just pretending not to be? I ask because you can not simply choose to believe, you either truly believe or you do not.

I didn't know there were rules. lol
All I can say is...I never felt content as an atheist. There was always this restlessness these past two years, that I can't explain. Some will tell me to fight that feeling, and not go back to religion. But, that sense of peace has come back to me recently, that went away...since I've been praying again. Believing again. How to explain that if not faith. Faith isn't about logic, that I will say. It's funny, because one of my atheist friends tells me that she never thought I was ever all in, as an atheist. lol

What I've learned from my experience, is that when you tell people you are leaving faith, your religious friends will criticize you. When you tell people you are no longer an atheist, and feel called to faith again...your atheist friends will criticize you. I have to look out for me, because I'm the only one who will, I've learned in this. And I wonder what my life would have been like...would be like...if my parents raised me without religion. I will never know, but of my atheist friends, they were never raised in any type of religion, so...they don't understand some of the angst I've had from deconversion. It hasn't been easy.

 

[Bunyip]

I didn't know there were rules. lol
All I can say is...I never felt content as an atheist. There was always this restlessness these past two years, that I can't explain. Some will tell me to fight that feeling, and not go back to religion. But, that sense of peace has come back to me recently, that went away...since I've been praying again. Believing again. How to explain that if not faith. Faith isn't about logic, that I will say. It's funny, because one of my atheist friends tells me that she never thought I was ever all in, as an atheist. lol

What I've learned from my experience, is that when you tell people you are leaving faith, your religious friends will criticize you. When you tell people you are no longer an atheist, and feel called to faith again...your atheist friends will criticize you. I have to look out for me, because I'm the only one who will, I've learned in this. And I wonder what my life would have been like...would be like...if my parents raised me without religion. I will never know, but of my atheist friends, they were never raised in any type of religion, so...they don't understand some of the angst I've had from deconversion. It hasn't been easy.

What has that got to do with belief? Do you believe god exists?

 

[Deidre]

What has that got to do with belief? Do you believe god exists?

Yes.

 

[Bunyip]

Yes.

Yes.

Did this belief cease?

 

[Deidre]

Did this belief cease?

Yea, it seemed that way. After I left Christianity, I didn't go to church, read the Bible, etc. I didn't think about it anymore. Until my grandmother got sick last year...that is when the void and anxiety began. And that's when I missed my faith. Or faith, in general. I don't miss Christianity, tbh.

I'm not sure how people process loss and grief (she died) as an atheist...I didn't do well with it.

 

[Bunyip]

Yea, it seemed that way. After I left Christianity, I didn't go to church, read the Bible, etc. I didn't think about it anymore. Until my grandmother got sick last year...that is when the void and anxiety began. And that's when I missed my faith. Or faith, in general. I don't miss Christianity, tbh.

I'm not sure how people process loss and grief (she died) as an atheist...I didn't do well with it.

Did you cease to believe in a god?

 

[Deidre]

Did you cease to believe in a god?

Yes, but I never felt 'good' about it. If that makes sense. I have a feeling it's easier to go from life long atheist to theism...than to go from theism to atheism, although I know some people who have made the 'transition' with relative ease. Idk. Everyone's different.

You say in your religion, that you are not religious...are you spiritual? Believer? Atheist? Just wondering.

 

[gnomon]

I'm not sure who you're replying to, me or the person who sent that to me ...someone sent that to me in a pm.

Anyway, I feel that I've been happier in my life as a theist, than I was as an atheist. So, that's that. I've struggled for about a year with all of this, since I left Christianity a few years ago...and now, the struggle is over...

I'm back to ''believing'', and anyone is free to believe as they wish. Yes.

Thank you for your input.

I was responding to you but it was rather harsh and quite frankly......I don't know why.

The only context I can give is that I was raised a Baptist who believed in God but never accepted Christ. I watched my family get baptized but I sat back in the pews. I went through my own personal difficult times and tried to ascribe to all the spiritual practices I could grab onto but they never helped. It was until a confrontation with AA members over my own problems with dealing with bipolar disorder that I refused to accept any spiritual practices that I got better. At that time.

For some of us we learn to accept our fate and function not happily but learn to survive. When people imposed the ideal of God on any sense of my survival it got worse. Worse enough to the point that the idea of faith was detrimental. You can find many similar stories among people who suffer from mental disorders proscribed to a 12 step program. I can only say in my experience that most of us wind up worse.

However, my experience is not yours and in my last post I did absolutely put my own experience on yours and that was wrong.

I too have been steeped in Christianity since my childhood and in the majority of my experiences since. However, such a belief brings absolutely no comfort to me. That doesn't mean I should discount the comfort of spiritual belief to you.

 

[Deidre]

I was responding to you but it was rather harsh and quite frankly......I don't know why.

The only context I can give is that I was raised a Baptist who believed in God but never accepted Christ. I watched my family get baptized but I sat back in the pews. I went through my own personal difficult times and tried to ascribe to all the spiritual practices I could grab onto but they never helped. It was until a confrontation with AA members over my own problems with dealing with bipolar disorder that I refused to accept any spiritual practices that I got better. At that time.

For some of us we learn to accept our fate and function not happily but learn to survive. When people imposed the ideal of God on any sense of my survival it got worse. Worse enough to the point that the idea of faith was detrimental. You can find many similar stories among people who suffer from mental disorders proscribed to a 12 step program. I can only say in my experience that most of us wind up worse.

However, my experience is not yours and in my last post I did absolutely put my own experience on yours and that was wrong.

I too have been steeped in Christianity since my childhood and in the majority of my experiences since. However, such a belief brings absolutely no comfort to me. That doesn't mean I should discount the comfort of spiritual belief to you.

Thank you for this. It's ok. ^_^
Religion and faith can well up a lot of emotions. All I can say is, indoctrination is a powerful thing. Even when I 'stopped' believing for a time...I felt bad about it. Guilty. Hard to explain with words. But, taking the time away from Christianity has opened up a new way of thinking for me about life, about faith. I'm much more open minded having been through the deconversion process, than when I was a practicing Christian. I mean, I never judged people as a Christian...but, I wasn't as open minded. I appreciate you sharing this...

Maybe we shouldn't worry about it all so much.

 

[Bunyip]

Yes, but I never felt 'good' about it. If that makes sense. I have a feeling it's easier to go from life long atheist to theism...than to go from theism to atheism, although I know some people who have made the 'transition' with relative ease. Idk. Everyone's different.

You say in your religion, that you are not religious...are you spiritual? Believer? Atheist? Just wondering.

I have a rich spiritual life, I have many beliefs I hold dear and am atheist.