atheism is a (religious position)

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Call it what you will and I'm not arguing BTW. I have focused on this subject. The only comparisons I made were elicited by others. This wasn't about my beliefs.

But it is about your beliefs. Belief in god is something that you consider important, so you've made it the only determining factor in what defines the "atheist religion."

Imagine a Buddhist or Hindu decided to declare all "non-Dharmics" one religion, lumping you, me, Muslims, Hellenistic Pagans, Satanists, etc., into one "religion" - would you agree that this is inappropriate? Because it's basically the same as what you're doing.

 

[shunyadragon]

Every identifyible classified thing has traits. This isn't to say there aren't individual distinctive features.

The only identifying trait of atheists is they do not believe in God, By the way there are many atheists in the Orient that believe in various Buddhist Creationist myths without Gods

Well it's funny because in almost any discussion I have evolution comes up.

Unfortunately your intentional ignorance of evolution is not funny, but I am a Theist and I will argue with you every time the subject comes up. You brought up your rejection of evolution and attributed it to atheist beliefs and everybody that believes in evolution will follow up your intentional ignorance of science including Theists and Atheists

Good point that they may also see lack of evidence as a reason for their belief. Many an atheist has recanted that based on the experiences they doubted actually happening to them.

There is a total lack of evidence for the existence and non-existence of Gods.
Anedotal claim of recanting beliefs. Many Theists recant their beliefs and become atheists and agnostics.

Again, this discussion isn't about what Christians believe. Why are you attempting to leverage what we believe in a discussion about what they believe?

It is definitely also about Christians and their negative stereotyping atheists as you present and accuse atheists of the same cruelty and violence that Christians have been knee deep in blood of non-believers and Jews for thousands of years.

Stop stereotyping atheists based comparisons of cruel despotes and I will gladly drop the factual comparison of Stalin to Christian Despotes and believers persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews and other non-believers.

Deal with the issues of atheism in the here and know and we will go on.

You also brought up the non issue of atheists and evolution and in reality it is not the topic of the thread, but nonetheless it clearly revealed your intentional ignorance of the relationship and the subject.

Your false accusation that most Christians reject evolution, and the fact that the sciences of evolution were first completely developed by Christian scientists not atheists th the 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

[Starise]

As do so many other religious beliefs. I suppose one can only live what one believes to be best for us all. Personally, as someone who has seen the changes within the UK (where homosexuality once was illegal), life is better for all now and much more open. And basing one's morality upon a religious text, in my view, is one of the things holding back societies - given one can't go back in time and rewrite the texts, even when they are wrong. Not much one can do as to debating this given neither side is likely to budge.

Sorry @Mock Turtle There is ony one of me and as it is one or two of the members who I have already set my views to insist on continuing to ask the same questions and bring the same things up over and over again. How would you deal with this?
I don't usually use an ignore feature, but in this case may be tempted to do so, and if I po'd a mod it wasn't intentional.

In any case, I thought we were discussing what you guys believed and maybe why you believe it. Was I wrong?

You are fully entitled to your views and I think it gives some understanding to your mindset. I'm not taking a 'side' but it seems polarization often occurs because we all have views. My views are obviously not your views because I'm not an atheist.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Premise 1: Having a God Concept makes any belief system a religion - if a belief system features a belief about God then it is a religious belief system

Premise 2: Atheists have a God Concept. They have a position on God, an opinion on God that qualifies as a position and an opinion on God, even though Atheists either see no valid reason to believe in God or explicitly reject such a belief. The point is, they still have God-beliefs

You cannot spell "Atheist" without the word "Theist"

The Atheist God Concept is that God is made up by humans who didn't know any better and is nothing more than myth

Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

Edit: I no longer believe Atheism is a religion. But I do maintain that it is a religious position, so is the same type of thing as religions

Religions require a system of ritual and belief. Emphasis on system.

Just believing in a God or not believing in any god doesnt make a person religious.

 

[Starise]

The only identifying trait of atheists is they do not believe in God, By the way there are many atheists in the Orient that believe in various Buddhist Creationist myths without Gods


Unfortunately your intentional ignorance of evolution is not funny, but I am a Theist and I will argue with you every time the subject comes up. You brought up your rejection of evolution and attributed it to atheist beliefs and everybody that believes in evolution will follow up your intentional ignorance of science including Theists and Atheists

There is a total lack of evidence for the existence and non-existence of Gods.
Anedotal claim of recanting beliefs. Many Theists recant their beliefs and become atheists and agnostics.


It is definitely also about Christians and their negative stereotyping atheists as you present and accuse atheists of the same cruelty and violence that Christians have been knee deep in blood of non-believers and Jews for thousands of years.

Stop stereotyping atheists based comparisons of cruel despotes and I will gladly drop the factual comparison of Stalin to Christian Despotes and believers persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews and other non-believers.

Deal with the issues of atheism in the here and know and we will go on.

You also brought up the non issue of atheists and evolution and in reality it is not the topic of the thread, but nonetheless it clearly revealed your intentional ignorance of the relationship and the subject.

Your false accusation that most Christians reject evolution, and the fact that the sciences of evolution were first completely developed by Christian scientists not atheists th the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Well you are stereotyping a person you hardly know at all and basing your views on what I said which in my opinion you took wrong. This isn't a thread about evolution bro.

How can I think any differently when on every TV interview and in every book evolution has served to undercut a belief in God? And many who claim atheism lean heavy into evolution. Not all, but many.

Anyways, I'm not new to the web or new to debates and what you are attempting to develop with me here isn't a fair debate, so if it contunues I'll simply block you.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well you are stereotyping a person you hardly know at all and basing your views on what I said which in my opinion you took wrong. This isn't a thread about evolution bro.

My posts simply reflect the direct citations of your own posts. To stereotype you would need to put you in a specific category. You need a dictionary to get your definitions right,

You brought up the subject of evolution bro, and cannot respond coherently to your false associations with atheism. The other RF members have also brought up the fact that you entered the contrasts of Christian beliefs and evolution associated with atheism, and you have defined the range of subject here.

How can I think any differently when on every TV interview and in every book evolution has served to undercut a belief in God? And many who claim atheism lean heavy into evolution. Not all, but many.

There are not texts, academic TV videos hat even mention God. No, most but all atheists and Christians support evolution. You cannot cite one academic source on evolution that even mentions God, because science deals only with the physical facts of our existence and not religious issues.

Anyways, I'm not new to the web or new to debates and what you are attempting to develop with me here isn't a fair debate, so if it continues I'll simply block you.

Block me if you like it makes no difference to me. Regardless of what you do it remains you have a bitter acrid view of atheists. falsely associate atheism with evolution, and falsely associate atheists with Stalin, and make false statements that most Christians reject evolution. There has not been anything factual or constructive you have brought to this thread, only a personal religious vendetta against atheists and evolution.

Again . . . You stand corrected . . . Your false accusation that most Christians reject evolution, and the fact that the foundations of the sciences of evolution were first completely developed by Christian scientists not atheists th the 19th and early 20th centuries.

You are stonewalling with false information.

 

[Starise]

ou brought up the subject of evolution bro, and cannot respond coherently to your false associations with atheism.

For good reason I brought it up. The other stuff you said is just fluffy meandering.

here are not texts, academic TV videos. No, moat but all atheists and Christians support evolution. You cannot cite one academic source on evolution that even mentions God, because science deals with the physical facts of our existence and religious issues.

This is not true. I haven't used any sources or in any way disgussed evolution in depth.

lock me if you like it makes no difference to me. Regardless of what you do it remains you have a bitter acrid view of atheists. falsely associate atheism with evolution, and falsely associate atheists with Stalin, and make false statements that most Christians reject evolution. There has not been anything factual or constructive you have brought to this thread, only a personal religious vendetta against atheists and evolution.

Again . . . You stand corrected . . . Your false accusation that most Christians reject evolution, and the fact that the foundations of the sciences of evolution were first completely developed by Christian scientists not atheists th the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Totally inaccurate. As a believer I am to love everyone. If you want to take an inaccurate parting shot go ahead. You are not the end all of information and your word has to be confirmed. I have only used statements I thought were associated with the majority of atheists and I am entitled to my opinions. This was IN NO WAY against any atheists here or anywhere else.

You continue to make this about Chistians when we are supposed to be discussing atheists in addition to your lack of willingness to see another side of a view and agree to disagree.

 

[shunyadragon]

For good reason I brought it up. The other stuff you said is just fluffy meandering.

This is not true. I haven't used any sources or in any way disgussed evolution in depth.

You are the one who said . . . How can I think any differently when on every TV interview and in every book evolution has served to undercut a belief in God? And many who claim atheism lean heavy into evolution. Not all, but many.

. . . which is totally false. and you have not provided anything to document this.

Totally inaccurate. As a believer I am to love everyone. If you want to take an inaccurate parting shot go ahead. You are not the end all of information and your word has to be confirmed. I have only used statements I thought were associated with the majority of atheists and I am entitled to my opinions. This was IN NO WAY against any atheists here or anywhere else.

You continue to make this about Chistians when we are supposed to be discussing atheists in addition to your lack of willingness to see another side of a view and agree to disagree.

You made this about evolution and religious beliefs in discussing atheism. Contrasting religious beliefs and the issue of the belief in God are issues in this thread. Your views presented represent an extreme Christian negative view of atheism. You cannot avoid discussing your extreme Christian view on atheism, Since you brought these issues up like your false statement most Christians reject atheism.

 

[shunyadragon]

Religions require a system of ritual and belief. Emphasis on system.

Unitarians do not have rituals and do not have a well defined belief or doctrine..

Just believing in a God or not believing in any god does not make a person religious.

It it true it does not represent 'belonging to a religion,' but you are avoiding the concept that atheist belief is indeed a religious position expressed in the belief that God's do not exist. Many Buddhists do not believe in God and have rituals and beliefs.

Making a vague self defined special category for yourself is not realistic.

 

[shunyadragon]

In any case, I thought we were discussing what you guys believed and maybe why you believe it. Was I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong based on your own posts bringing up your Christian beliefs, and evolution, which reflects you religious beliefs, as issues in the thread concerning atheism, There is wide agreement on this concerning the posters in this thread,

 

[Samael_Khan]

Unitarians do not have rituals and do not have a well defined belief or doctrine..

It it true it does not represent 'belonging to a religion,' but you are avoiding the concept that atheist belief is indeed a religious position expressed in the belief that God's do not exist. Many Buddhists do not believe in God and have rituals and beliefs.

Making a vague self defined special category for yourself is not realistic.

I think you might have missed this but I also applied just believing in god to that category. Just believing in god doesnt make someone religious. And by this i mean a very abstract idea of a higher power or foundational force.

Atheism doesn't necessitate a religious position either, because if someone is an agnostic atheist, then they certainly cannot be considered to be taking any religious position at all.

Buddhism is an excellent example of my point, that ritual and belief is involved for something to be called a religion. One can be atheist and religious.

Alone, atheism and theism are not religions or religious positions, because just thinking that a thing does or does not exist isn't a religious concept. The more defined it becomes though, the more "religious" the belief is.

Speaking of myself, these days I definitely have religious positions. Maybe I might be considered "spiritual" instead of religious. But I am not making the position for myself. I am making the category from what makes sense to me.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Sorry @Mock Turtle There is ony one of me and as it is one or two of the members who I have already set my views to insist on continuing to ask the same questions and bring the same things up over and over again. How would you deal with this?
I don't usually use an ignore feature, but in this case may be tempted to do so, and if I po'd a mod it wasn't intentional.

In any case, I thought we were discussing what you guys believed and maybe why you believe it. Was I wrong?

You are fully entitled to your views and I think it gives some understanding to your mindset. I'm not taking a 'side' but it seems polarization often occurs because we all have views. My views are obviously not your views because I'm not an atheist.

Some of us hardly expect others to agree, and I'm not too insistent as to replying to everything. I don't use the ignore feature personally and just pass on the many I often would like to comment on but which wouldn't be productive - apart from one instance, where English is the default here so expected - and if any who are not proficient in English want to comment then there are suitable translators available.

 

[DNB]

OK, this is what you believe concerning your religion, but it does not address the questions in the thread how we relate to others who believe differently, The history of Christianity is not enlightened when it comes to showing universal compassion and understanding to those who believe differently,.

We correct them , and do not compromise what we understand to be the truth pertaining to life and the Creator of the universe.

True, but our spiritual reality should not be in conflict and have contradictions between the objective nature and history of our physical existence. To cling to ancient tribal beliefs in contradiction to the harmony between the physical and the spiritual in the unity of God's Creation reflecting the attributes of God.

God is spirit, and the flesh is at enmity with the spirit - those who are secular, and physically or materially minded, lack wisdom and it reflects in the outcomes of their lives.
There is no harmony between the material world and the spirit - the earth and all its elements are just an interface for man to live in accordance with God's will - it is his behaviour, and relationships between other humans that matter, not his affinity or interaction with the planet

 

[DNB]

More claims, but I notice you still haven't answered my question.

Seriously, you asked a question somewhere?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Seriously, you asked a question somewhere?

All right - we can try again:

Life and man's sprit are the independent and objective keys to extrapolating the truth - the evidence is before us all.
If by now, at your mature age, you can't tell what causes the world to run, or what compels man to act in a certain way, then blindness appears to be a disease that has affected the majority of the populace

Can you actually tell any of that, or have you just doubled down on the assumption that what you were taught as a child is true?

I asked the question; you sidestepped it. @shunyadragon repeated the question; you replied with a whole long list of new claims, none of which actually responded to the question.

I'm curious about whether you think you really can "tell" that the world works the way you think it does, and if so, what that looks like.

 

[shunyadragon]

We correct them , and do not compromise what we understand to be the truth pertaining to life and the Creator of the universe.

God is spirit, and the flesh is at enmity with the spirit - those who are secular, and physically or materially minded, lack wisdom and it reflects in the outcomes of their lives.
There is no harmony between the material world and the spirit - the earth and all its elements are just an interface for man to live in accordance with God's will - it is his behaviour, and relationships between other humans that matter, not his affinity or interaction with the planet

You di not respond to the brute facts that the physical evidence is in total contradiction to the ancient tribal accounts of Creation and the historicity of the Pentateuch, such as Noah's Flood.

Can you provide any objective verifiable evidence for the Biblical Creation and Noah's Flood?

 

[shunyadragon]

Seriously, you asked a question somewhere?

See post #1056

 

[DNB]

All right - we can try again:



I asked the question; you sidestepped it. @shunyadragon repeated the question; you replied with a whole long list of new claims, none of which actually responded to the question.

I'm curious about whether you think you really can "tell" that the world works the way you think it does, and if so, what that looks like.

Yes, I believe that I can tell whether or my world-view is accurate.
I believe that God exists, and that man is created in His image.

There is clearly a spiritual warfare going on in this planet that dictates man's behaviour, even overriding his intellect. This is prevalent and universal.
Man's life is full of irrational decisions, sentiments, activities: smoking cigarettes, racism, obesity, war, kidnapping, forced sex trafficking, false testimony, greed, ostentation etc. Theses are all dispositions that undermine man's progress, and expedites his death and sorrow.

He is not merely trying to survive as all other creatures on this planet - depending on his heart, he is compelled to act in either a hypocritical, selfish, offensive, or abuse manner. Or, out of altruism, compassion, love, kindness and generosity.

This spirit does not come from protoplasm and stardust, there is an intrinsic spiritual dimension within man's constitution - there is not one civilization anywhere in the world that did not aspire to communicate with the transcendent.

This is undeniable evidence.

 

[DNB]

You di not respond to the brute facts that the physical evidence is in total contradiction to the ancient tribal accounts of Creation and the historicity of the Pentateuch, such as Noah's Flood.

Can you provide any objective verifiable evidence for the Biblical Creation and Noah's Flood?

As I am not a geologist or biologist, no, I cannot provide evidence - but there are those who can, I would ultimately imagine - since it's true

 

[shunyadragon]

As I am not a geologist or biologist, no, I cannot provide evidence - but there are those who can, I would ultimately imagine - since it's true

This a problem, because in my over 50 years as geologist I have not found any objective evidence for the Creation story or Noah's Flood. In fact based on basic physics and the geologic evidence Noah's Flood is impossible.

A basic high school level physics enough to realize this,