Assisted suicide is legal in Catholiland

[Shadow Wolf]

So, it is a very low threshold, fortunately.

Are there any conditions that must first be met? Like therapy and other treatments? They way it seems makes it appear so broad application that I'd potentially be allowed to kill myself.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Antonio, 44 anni, potrà accedere al suicidio assistito. È il secondo in Italia
Eutanasia legale, primo sì dopo il caso Cappato.

There is a de facto depenalization of assisted suicide, thanks to Italy's Supreme Court of Cassation's ruling number 242/ 2019 that makes the assisted suicide "not punishable" wherever the patient is in an irreversible condition of pain and psychological suffering.

I am joining FL Death With Dignity. I think the US is coming around. I think that if someone will only be suffering physically or psychologically, have dementia, or if they are terminal, it's fine, but it has to be their choice.

 

[Heyo]

It just doesn't fit either type of suicide. If Jesus committed suicide, then so did Ghandi and MLK. Would you say that of them? Jesus doubtless knew others would try to kill him, just as I'm sure MLK and Ghandi did as well. But there was no "death wish" on their parts. Any of them. They did not kill themselves, or have others do it for them.

According to the Bible, Jesus knew what awaited him. It was not a diffuse threat like with other people in risky businesses. He went knowing and willing. Like a suicide bomber.

 

[Windwalker]

According to the Bible, Jesus knew what awaited him. It was not a diffuse threat like with other people in risky businesses.

I suppose you could say, according to the narrative, that Jesus' entire life was a "suicide mission". But that is still entirely different than him committing suicide by cop (or by Romans), or being a suicide bomber who pulls the trigger on themselves in order to murder others.

If you wish to use the term suicide, then it would be more comparable to the hero who died on a suicide mission, knowing they would die but their deaths would mean the success of the mission. That's very, very different than saying that they "committed suicide". Isn't it?

He went knowing and willing. Like a suicide bomber.

Not at all like a suicide bomber. They kill themselves in order to kill others. Much more like a hero on a suicide mission who was killed in the line of duty. I seriously doubt you would want to say of those soldiers who rushed the beaches of Normandy that, "they committed suicide". Would you?

 

[Heyo]

I suppose you could say, according to the narrative, that Jesus' entire life was a "suicide mission". But that is still entirely different than him committing suicide by cop (or by Romans), or being a suicide bomber who pulls the trigger on themselves in order to murder others.

If you wish to use the term suicide, then it would be more comparable to the hero who died on a suicide mission, knowing they would die but their deaths would mean the success of the mission. That's very, very different than saying that they "committed suicide". Isn't it?


Not at all like a suicide bomber. They kill themselves in order to kill others. Much more like a hero on a suicide mission who was killed in the line of duty. I seriously doubt you would want to say of those soldiers who rushed the beaches of Normandy that, "they committed suicide". Would you?

What is the difference between a soldier on the beaches of Normandy and a suicide bomber?

 

[Windwalker]

What is the difference between a soldier on the beaches of Normandy and a suicide bomber?

The former did not kill themselves. Do consider people who are soldiers to be suicidal, wanting to end their own lives? That is what you are having to say. It does not fit the definition of suicide, which is ending your own life. A suicide bomber ends their own life. They want to end their own life. A suicide by cop, is ending their own life intentionally, wanting to die, but getting someone else to do it for them.

Do you believe Jesus was suicidal, wanting to end his own life? That is what you have to say if you call his death suicide. Clearly, according to the narrative, Jesus did not want to die. A person who commits suicide wants to die.

Being willing to die, and wanting to die, are entirely different. It doesn't fit to call the former, of being willing to die, the same thing as suicide, where you want to die. If you are willing to die for someone else, that is not you being suicidal.

 

[blü 2]

Antonio, 44 anni, potrà accedere al suicidio assistito. È il secondo in Italia
Eutanasia legale, primo sì dopo il caso Cappato.

There is a de facto depenalization of assisted suicide, thanks to Italy's Supreme Court of Cassation's ruling number 242/ 2019 that makes the assisted suicide "not punishable" wherever the patient is in an irreversible condition of pain and psychological suffering.

Sounds sensible to me.

It's found in a growing number of jurisdictions around the world.

And to a substantial extent it's what a lot of palliative care units have been doing quietly for many decades.

 

[SomeRandom]

The former did not kill themselves. Do consider people who are soldiers to be suicidal, wanting to end their own lives? That is what you are having to say. It does not fit the definition of suicide, which is ending your own life. A suicide bomber ends their own life. They want to end their own life. A suicide by cop, is ending their own life intentionally, wanting to die, but getting someone else to do it for them.

Do you believe Jesus was suicidal, wanting to end his own life? That is what you have to say if you call his death suicide. Clearly, according to the narrative, Jesus did not want to die. A person who commits suicide wants to die.

Being willing to die, and wanting to die, are entirely different. It doesn't fit to call the former, of being willing to die, the same thing as suicide, where you want to die. If you are willing to die for someone else, that is not you being suicidal.

But Suicide Bombers likely see themselves as mere soldiers willing to die for their cause. And taking out perceived enemies with them is part of the mindset.
Just because we have soldiers on our side willing to die for their fellow man, doesn’t make such a mindset unique. Indeed no one thinks they are the villains in their own story.
(Please note I do not at all condone such thinking. Just an observation.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is the difference between a soldier on the beaches of Normandy and a suicide bomber?

Most of the soldiers who landed at Normandy survived.

While casualties were expected, the whole point of the operation was to have as many soldiers as possible survive the landing, establish a beachhead, and then push into France.

 

[Windwalker]

But Suicide Bombers likely see themselves as mere soldiers willing to die for their cause. And taking out perceived enemies with them is part of the mindset.
Just because we have soldiers on our side willing to die for their fellow man, doesn’t make such a mindset unique. Indeed no one thinks they are the villains in their own story.

As I've said previously, even if a suicide bomber is dying for a cause it is them killing themselves in order to kill others. This is different than a soldier who goes on a so-called "suicide mission", in that they are in fact not killing themselves to kill others. They intend to stay alive as long as they can until the enemy kills them. So technically speaking they are not committing suicide. They are not killing themselves.

But what originally starting this debate was comparing Jesus to someone who commits suicide by cop, or by Romans, in this case. That is not comparable at all. Someone who commits suicide wants to die, and is simply looking for the means to make that happen, which might include provoking police officers to do it for them. And while a suicide bomber may not be "suicidal" in the true psychological sense of the word, and are dying for a cause and using self-detonation as the weapon to kill others, that is in fact still wanting to die. They want to die, in order to kill the enemy.

A solider on a suicide mission does not want to die. But they are willing to die, as an act of heroism. They don't charge in screaming, kill me, kill me. They want to stay alive as long as possible, and would prefer to not die if at all possible. And that compares much more closely to the portrait of Jesus' death.

You could say he was on a type of suicide mission, one which he knew would end up costing him his life. But like those soldiers fighting to the last, he did not want to die. He had no desire to kill himself. He was not suicidal in the common psychological sense of that word.

So to psychology we go to settle this. Suicide (SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY) iResearchNet

Suicide Definition

Suicide is the act of intentionally taking one’s life. This definition, however, has been expanded to describe the range of thoughts and behaviors that are exhibited by individuals who are in some manner considering suicide. Suicidal ideation involves having thoughts of killing oneself or of being dead. Suicidal intent involves having a plan for how to kill oneself and intending to carry that plan out.
​

There is no way that fits Jesus. He did not want to intentionally take his own life (either by his own hands or the hands of the Romans). He did not have thoughts of killing himself or wanting to be dead. He hand no plans to carry it out (even if he could foresee the events would inevitably lead to his death it was no his plan to end his own life at their hands). He had no behaviors that put him at high risk in order to end his own life. Dying was not his goal.

So, no, it was not an act of suicide. Believe whatever you may about the whole theology of about it.

 

[SomeRandom]

As I've said previously, even if a suicide bomber is dying for a cause it is them killing themselves in order to kill others. This is different than a soldier who goes on a so-called "suicide mission", in that they are in fact not killing themselves to kill others. They intend to stay alive as long as they can until the enemy kills them. So technically speaking they are not committing suicide. They are not killing themselves.

Hate to break this to you, but more often than not, soldiers will try to kill the enemy as well in those scenarios. It’s called war for a reason. And there’s nothing noble about it. Just people killing each other. And I very much doubt Suicide bombers don’t want to live, merely accepted that suicide is their fate. Self preservation is an innate instinct humans have. That’s why all suicide bombers have to be first radicalised and extensively conditioned by someone in the first place. Indeed soldiers have to be thoroughly trained to ignore their self preservation as well. To varying results
Like I said, no one thinks that they’re the bad guy. Suicide Bombers likely see themselves as performing a noble heroic sacrifice or a righteous one, depending on their motivations. Very much like those soldiers. No one just one day decides to kill themselves in spectacular gory fashion for the hell of it. They’re doing so because they believe in a cause. And sometimes even that they’re saving others’ souls.
Again not condoning that way of thinking, merely an observation

But what originally starting this debate was comparing Jesus to someone who commits suicide by cop, or by Romans, in this case. That is not comparable at all. Someone who commits suicide wants to die, and is simply looking for the means to make that happen, which might include provoking police officers to do it for them. And while a suicide bomber may not be "suicidal" in the true psychological sense of the word, and are dying for a cause and using self-detonation as the weapon to kill others, that is in fact still wanting to die. They want to die, in order to kill the enemy.

Whilst I agree that comparison is not applicable to Jesus.
He is still a sacrificial lamb, so to speak. There are even movies/plays where it shows Jesus contemplating his eventual death and somewhat questioning his own mortality. Some called such portrayals blasphemous, but others argued that it made Jesus more relatable and only highlighted his true compassion for mankind in the end.

A solider on a suicide mission does not want to die. But they are willing to die, as an act of heroism. They don't charge in screaming, kill me, kill me. They want to stay alive as long as possible, and would prefer to not die if at all possible. And that compares much more closely to the portrait of Jesus' death.
I doubt suicide bombers truly want to die. Humans have an innate self preservation instinct. Hence why such bombers have to be thoroughly conditioned into extremism.
They likely don’t want to die either. Merely accept that as their fate and cause for “the greater good.”

You’re really trying hard to split hairs here. But I would agree that Jesus’ sacrifice was selfless in context.

You could say he was on a type of suicide mission, one which he knew would end up costing him his life. But like those soldiers fighting to the last, he did not want to die. He had no desire to kill himself. He was not suicidal in the common psychological sense of that word.

Perhaps not.
Like I said, all humans possess a self preservation instinct innately. And Jesus was more than human according to Christianity, right? Although I do know some Christians who consider him the perfect human so, I guess interpretations can vary?
Either way, that innate instinct is why suicidal people need professional help to begin with. Not having that is a genuine mental issue.
Suicide bombers and likely to an extent soldiers in general have to be trained extensively to ignore those very instincts.

So to psychology we go to settle this. Suicide (SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY) iResearchNet

Suicide Definition

Suicide is the act of intentionally taking one’s life. This definition, however, has been expanded to describe the range of thoughts and behaviors that are exhibited by individuals who are in some manner considering suicide. Suicidal ideation involves having thoughts of killing oneself or of being dead. Suicidal intent involves having a plan for how to kill oneself and intending to carry that plan out.
​

There is no way that fits Jesus. He did not want to intentionally take his own life (either by his own hands or the hands of the Romans). He did not have thoughts of killing himself or wanting to be dead. He hand no plans to carry it out (even if he could foresee the events would inevitably lead to his death it was no his plan to end his own life at their hands). He had no behaviors that put him at high risk in order to end his own life. Dying was not his goal.

You’ll get no arguments from me.
I have no beef with Jesus.

So, no, it was not an act of suicide. Believe whatever you may about the whole theology of about it.

I never said it was.

 

[Windwalker]

Whilst I agree that comparison is not applicable to Jesus.

Correct. He was not suicidal and did not commit a suicide by Rome. We agree.

He is still a sacrificial lamb, so to speak. There are even movies/plays where it shows Jesus contemplating his eventual death and somewhat questioning his own mortality. Some called such portrayals blasphemous, but others argued that it made Jesus more relatable and only highlighted his true compassion for mankind in the end.

One can also say that MLK and Gandhi were also sacrificial lambs. Their deaths were for the cause. MLK likewise, died for others. So did Ghandi. So did Jesus. I personally don't buy the whole blood sacrifice to pay off God so he could forgive humankind theology. Like someone so aptly put it, "So does God really love me, or was he just paid off?"

You’re really trying hard to split hairs here. But I would agree that Jesus’ sacrifice was selfless in context.

Sure. I don't think any analogy to soldiers on a suicide mission or suicide bombers really fits either. I was just saying that compared to suicide bomber, it would be closer to the suicide mission, giving their lives for the cause. But in reality, it was not an act of warfare against other people at all. The death was simply an expression of being willing to give everything to love others. I don't know any soldier in a battle that dies out of love for their enemies. Just saying.

Perhaps not.
Like I said, all humans possess a self preservation instinct innately. And Jesus was more than human according to Christianity, right? Although I do know some Christians who consider him the perfect human so, I guess interpretations can vary?

Yeah, while the Bible does says he was fully human, the church elevates him beyond human, and "Kicks Jesus upstairs," as Alan Watts, put it. Of course he didn't want to die according to the author's portraits of him. Although, you see differences in the Jesus portrayed in Mark compared to John. John does tend to make him far more superhuman, and a lot less not-in-control like in Mark. These are just different ideas people have of Jesus. The Jesus like us. The perfectly in control superhuman Jesus, and so forth. Each has their place and role in the practice of faith, I suppose.

I never said it was.

Others did, and that's what I was responded to when you quote me.

 

[SomeRandom]

Correct. He was not suicidal and did not commit a suicide by Rome. We agree.


One can also say that MLK and Gandhi were also sacrificial lambs. Their deaths were for the cause. MLK likewise, died for others. So did Ghandi. So did Jesus. I personally don't buy the whole blood sacrifice to pay off God so he could forgive humankind theology. Like someone so aptly put it, "So does God really love me, or was he just paid off?"

Valid point.

Sure. I don't think any analogy to soldiers on a suicide mission or suicide bombers really fits either. I was just saying that compared to suicide bomber, it would be closer to the suicide mission, giving their lives for the cause. But in reality, it was not an act of warfare against other people at all. The death was simply an expression of being willing to give everything to love others. I don't know any soldier in a battle that dies out of love for their enemies. Just saying.

Well that’s fair. Though I suppose there are some legends about WWI diggers showing compassion for their enemies at various times. (Like there was supposedly a ceasefire to celebrate Christmas one year.)
How accurate those legends are to reality, I’m not entirely sure. I think they’ve largely undergone the “mythologising process” so to speak.
But there are some interesting war stories throughout the ages all the same. Not always doom and gloom. But not always uplifting either
That said I feel we all too often glorify war as a species and often the soldiers (doesn’t matter the side) suffers for it in the end

Yeah, while the Bible does says he was fully human, the church elevates him beyond human, and "Kicks Jesus upstairs," as Alan Watts, put it. Of course he didn't want to die according to the author's portraits of him. Although, you see differences in the Jesus portrayed in Mark compared to John. John does tend to make him far more superhuman, and a lot less not-in-control like in Mark. These are just different ideas people have of Jesus. The Jesus like us. The perfectly in control superhuman Jesus, and so forth. Each has their place and role in the practice of faith, I suppose.

Interesting.

Others did, and that's what I was responded to when you quote me.

Fair enough