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Assisted suicide is legal in Catholiland

Erebus

Well-Known Member
I'm a proponent of both assisted suicide and euthanasia for the reasons people have already listed. Prolonging a person's suffering unnecessarily is unethical and people should have bodily autonomy. So far, it seems like that's the general consensus in this thread.

Now the bit that people are probably going to disagree with me on... I would include mental illness as a potential source of unnecessary suffering.

A little background here. I've been on anti-depressants for most of my life and have at times also been on anti-psychotics. While doctors have gone back and forth on what diagnosis to give me, they eventually settled on schizoaffective disorder (depressive type). My condition isn't going to go away, it simply fluctuates in severity.

Due to my condition, I fall into the category of people who are generally considered incapable of making an informed decision to choose assisted suicide or euthanasia. There's a perception that people with mental illnesses, particularly psychotic illnesses, have no grip on reality whatsoever. For the vast majority of mentally ill people, that just isn't the case.

I would ask the people who've spoken to me on this forum: Do I not seem lucid to you? Do I appear to be incapable of assessing the pros and cons of euthanasia?

I do understand why people are uncomfortable with the idea of assisted suicide for mental illness, particularly if somebody has a friend or family member who may well make that choice if it were available. It's also something that would likely require safeguards, such as a waiting period coupled with therapy. Suicide is often impulsive so providing somebody with euthanasia the moment they ask for it is a tremendously bad idea.

Ultimately though, I view mental suffering as a valid reason for somebody to decide that they don't want to live. I also don't think that having a mental illness automatically makes somebody incapable of deciding what to do with their body.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Discuss this from a religious and ethical point of view.
I think it boils down to a very simple fact; If people give doctors and hospitals more money to actually help reduce their suffering in this life, they won't be able to give as much money to priests and churches to purportedly help reduce their suffering in the next.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Antonio, 44 anni, potrà accedere al suicidio assistito. È il secondo in Italia
Eutanasia legale, primo sì dopo il caso Cappato.

There is a de facto depenalization of assisted suicide, thanks to Italy's Supreme Court of Cassation's ruling number 242/ 2019 that makes the assisted suicide "not punishable" wherever the patient is in an irreversible condition of pain and psychological suffering.

I remember back when Dr. Kevorkian was offering his services for assisted suicide. They disparagingly called him "Dr. Death," but if he was ending the suffering of terminally ill patients who had no chance of recovery, I couldn't see why anyone would have had a problem with it.

However, I can see where doctors and hospitals would make more money and higher profits if they can drag out someone's suffering as long as possible.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I remember back when Dr. Kevorkian was offering his services for assisted suicide. They disparagingly called him "Dr. Death," but if he was ending the suffering of terminally ill patients who had no chance of recovery, I couldn't see why anyone would have had a problem with it.

However, I can see where doctors and hospitals would make more money and higher profits if they can drag out someone's suffering as long as possible.
Well...that's a good point, the monetary aspect.
I think that's the State here has still a overwhelmingly significant culture of life that it defends, despite being secular. Meaning that the State, the NHS is disposed to pay lots of money to save lives.
Of course the assisted suicide is applied whenever the patient's will prevails.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
In some cases euthansia may be a good thing. But i always worry about it being misused and of the usage of eugenics. Like someone getting it just cuz they feel like a burden to family and not cuz they actually are in pain.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I see prolonging a patient’s life against their wishes to be unethical and ultimately rather selfish. It is Adharmic (immoral) to me
Demanding they suffer for as long as humanly possible, without offering a humane alternative.
Of course people with suicidal thoughts should be helped by mental health professionals. But I would rather allow a person die with dignity, surrounded by friends and family (or even just some nice hospice staff.)
It's like we share one brain!
I've nothing to add.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By fleeing from Jerusalem?
In all seriousness though, I wouldn't characterize being willing to lay down your life for a greater cause to be a form of suicide. You'd have to say that all people who volunteer to fight in the armed services in time of war, are suicidal.

Clearly, there is an entirely different mindset there between being willing to die for the greater good, and choosing to terminate one's own life due to personal pain and suffering. The latter is a choice to terminate your own life, for your own personal reasons, even if it is "suicide by cop", for instance.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Antonio, 44 anni, potrà accedere al suicidio assistito. È il secondo in Italia
Eutanasia legale, primo sì dopo il caso Cappato.

There is a de facto depenalization of assisted suicide, thanks to Italy's Supreme Court of Cassation's ruling number 242/ 2019 that makes the assisted suicide "not punishable" wherever the patient is in an irreversible condition of pain and psychological suffering.

Where is this country that a lot of people started going to for euthanasia? Is it New Zealand? When in many countries governments started clamping down on it, many people started going to this country to kill themselves painlessly to end the pains they are facing in their lives. But I don't know if you have to prove that you are in physical pain or not. Bottomline is, I am no expert on this. ;)

From a religious point of view, Islam and catholicism is vivid in their condemnation of it. There is nothing called assisted and not. Suicide is suicide, and it's said "DO not kill yourselves". The excuses of apologists have been in history has been that, "it is not I who is killing myself". But then again, you are telling someone else to kill you so it is ultimately you.

The thing is, it's easy for outsiders to say things to those who are truly in pain. I have met a guy who was injured only on his thigh. He got shot from behind and the bullet had gone through his thigh. He was okay. Bullet was taken out. But his pain continued. He wanted to amputate his leg but there was no government approval to do so because medically everything is fine. So he lived with his painful leg. I don't know medicine and all of this biological stuff but this guy was in pain. Day in, day out. Thus he started drinking. Generally he drinks half a bottle in the morning and then another half in the evening after he wakes up from his nap. After this alternative, he was always happy. He still lives and is happy during the times he is drinking.

If just a bullet and one leg can give him so much pain, I can't figure out how those people who have serious nerves injury complaining of excruciating pain everyday is living. What if you don't have money to buy expensive medication?

Nevertheless, from the Islamic and Catholic point of view, I do know it's prohibited. Interesting topic. I have not thought about this topic since I watched a movie with al Pacino of this guy who was fighting for euthanasia.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
In all seriousness though, I wouldn't characterize being willing to lay down your life for a greater cause to be a form of suicide. You'd have to say that all people who volunteer to fight in the armed services in time of war, are suicidal.

Clearly, there is an entirely different mindset there between being willing to die for the greater good, and choosing to terminate one's own life due to personal pain and suffering. The latter is a choice to terminate your own life, for your own personal reasons, even if it is "suicide by cop", for instance.
I accept that but our language is flexible enough to include both cases. E.g. people who blow themselves up for a higher cause are still called suicide bombers. And someone who needs assistance in suicide needs even more assistance in life. They may have altruistic motives (additional to their personal ones) in freeing relatives from having to care for them.
As I said to @questfortruth already, you may call it self sacrifice but it is still a form of suicide.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
What did Jesus do in the Garden that night? Praying: "kill me, Father!" No, Jesus tried to escape death.
Obviously, then, you don't believe in the Trinity -- because in that interpretation, Jesus and God are one person (along with the Holy Ghost). That of course, makes Jesus's statement "If this cup cannot pass by, but I must drink it, Your will be done!" (Matthew 26:42) a little difficult to interpret, doesn't it?

But if Jesus is God, then Jesus is basically saying "it is our will." And if he is not God, then a whole of the religion is going to have to be rethought.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Hubby and I are both members of Dignitas. Should either of us become non functional or in constant incurable pain, (severe) then the other makes a phone call, we hop on the train to Paris, change for Switzerland, are met at the station and transported to a location (usually a private house) where we can say our farewells and leave this life with love and dignity.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Like someone getting it just cuz they feel like a burden to family and not cuz they actually are in pain.

I think thats a valid point, especially when it comes to the elderly who do not want to be a burden on family are too easily talked into ending their life. Between hospice and palliative care there is no reason for suffering. For those who have to live with debilitating diseases which are not life threatening its a different matter and are in need of much positive reinforcement.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I accept that but our language is flexible enough to include both cases. E.g. people who blow themselves up for a higher cause are still called suicide bombers. And someone who needs assistance in suicide needs even more assistance in life. They may have altruistic motives (additional to their personal ones) in freeing relatives from having to care for them.
As I said to @questfortruth already, you may call it self sacrifice but it is still a form of suicide.
Well that's an interesting comparison. But a suicide bomber isn't exactly wanting to terminate their own life because they no longer wish to be alive. It's technically not suicide in that sense of the word. It's more a technique to kill the enemy in battle. In WWll they called them "kamikaze". I don't think we would consider someone who hung themselves because of depression, to be a kamikaze.

Let's put it this way, did Martin Luther King Jr. commit suicide by speaking out against racism? Did he have a death wish? Did Ghandi commit suicide by standing up for Indian political autonomy? Of course not. Neither were they ending their own lives to kill the enemy on the field of war. Jesus' death was very much of the same order as MLK and Ghandi, who likewise "sacrificed their lives for others". This is nothing like a depressed soul who gets other to kill them for themselves, or taking out enemy combatants but blowing himself up.

It just doesn't fit either type of suicide. If Jesus committed suicide, then so did Ghandi and MLK. Would you say that of them? Jesus doubtless knew others would try to kill him, just as I'm sure MLK and Ghandi did as well. But there was no "death wish" on their parts. Any of them. They did not kill themselves, or have others do it for them.
 
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