Ask About Islam

[Sheldon]

There are lots of crazy sounding verses. I'm trying to show they do in fact have meaning.

All you have done is arbitrarily attach your own meaning to them, I see objective reasoning whatsoever in your bizarre claims. Also why would a deity with limitless intelligence to create a message, and limitless power to communicate it, deal in vague cryptic esoterism?

The notion makes no sense, from top to bottom.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I showed that your hierarchy is nonsensical.

Where?
When you are talking about different physical valleys, hills, and mountains and the variation in elevation?

This?:

Still don't get what you are trying to say, but your claim is nonsensical. Geographical features do not necessarily have relative heights.
There are valleys in the Himalayas that are higher than mountains in the UK. There is no official distinction between hills and mountains. They are determined as much by features as by elevation. A hill on the Colorado plateau will be higher than most mountains in Belgium.
The Yarlung Tsangpo River is higher than every stream in Australia.

I get your point but it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

I tried telling you that.

I replied:

I know that KWED. Could also say on a point on the river that there are streams at lower elevation (further down river).

Like I've said many times in this thread - The words are symbols KWED. Not physical.

You still dont get it. And thats your problem.

That is why you dont know what I'm talking about.
Of course I would sound delusional if you still think I'm talking about physical things.

The words valley, hill, and mountain are being used to represent different levels of height.

The valley symbol, the hill symbol, and the mountain symbol.
The sea symbol, the river symbol, and the stream symbol.

Please try to understand that.

I'm talking about the "hierarchy" of symbols.
Not physical valleys, hillls, and mountains.

Please try to understand that.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

By presenting "explanations" that are even more incoherent than the original?

Remember what I showed earlier:

Iron is the Earth. The first heaven above the Earth is Brass, second is silver, third is gold.

As it clearly says:
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23


So the Earth and the heavens is the treasury:

But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 6:19


Jesus understood this. He shows it:
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3

The gold and silver being collected by the churches is Earthly and not heavenly.
The Earthly gold and silver is just iron (Earthly), so it rusts.

The Earthly gold and silver leads to thieves and corruption:

They did not understand the true treasure. Heavenly treasure.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Matthew 6:19-20



They did not see their gold and silver turn rusty.

Can you see it?

Jesus is trying to explain the words.

He says lay not for yourselves treasures upon earth. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.


Does that also sound "even more incoherent than the original?".

As in God wants iron, brass, silver, gold in his treasury.



Not physical iron, brass, silver, gold.
Symbolic iron, brass, silver, gold.

Do you understand?


Edit:
The symbolic gold is exactly the same thing as the symbolic mountain. Hence it is a mountain of gold.
Just as the symbolic hill is exactly the same thing as the symbolic silver, and the symbolic valley is exactly the same thing as the symbolic brass.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Leprosy is a physical disease. If healing the lepers does not take place as a physical event, then nothing has happened.

To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy. Leviticus 14:57

The fact of the matter is that the writers believed in magic.

No. That is not the fact of the matter.

Where is any evidence that the writers believed in magic or were even talking about magic.


The readers believed in magic. There is lots of evidence of that.

 

[KWED]

Where?
When you are talking about different physical valleys, hills, and mountains and the variation in elevation?

This?:

I get your point but it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

I tried telling you that.

I replied:

I'm talking about the "hierarchy" of symbols.
Not physical valleys, hillls, and mountains.

Please try to understand that.

If your "symbolic" hierarchy is based on the physical examples you gave, then it is nonsense.
If it isn't based on those examples, then why give those examples?

 

[KWED]

Jesus is trying to explain the words.
He says lay not for yourselves treasures upon earth. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.
Does that also sound "even more incoherent than the original?".

Your garbled explanation does.
"lay not for yourselves treasures upon earth. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven" makes sense on its own. Why all the nonsense about valleys and brass and oil and bows, etc...?

As in God wants iron, brass, silver, gold in his treasury.
Not physical iron, brass, silver, gold.
Symbolic iron, brass, silver, gold.
Do you understand?
Edit:
The symbolic gold is exactly the same thing as the symbolic mountain. Hence it is a mountain of gold.
Just as the symbolic hill is exactly the same thing as the symbolic silver, and the symbolic valley is exactly the same thing as the symbolic brass.

Why do you insist on making fairly simple concepts unintelligible?

 

[KWED]

Where is any evidence that the writers believed in magic or were even talking about magic.

So you don't think the Bible contains any accounts of any supernatural events. Everything described therein has a natural explanation.

 

[ppp]

To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy. Leviticus 14:57

Simply dropping quotes does not explain why you think the quote is relavant.

Where is any evidence that the writers believed in magic or were even talking about magic.

You have gotten it backwards. I need evidence to conclude that they were exceptions to the norm.

 

[stanberger]

Jesus is a mythical character in fiction. I agree, these violent actions help to demonstrate these are not divine beings. Just as the violence and condemnation against other religions and non-believers in the Quran help to show these are stories written by people. No divine messages from angels. Angels are fiction like warewolves and vampires.

jesus existed. the purpose of life is to worship the one god. the creator. I realized that and left church for islam. 2002. my life is more serene today as a result. my friends in church are so confused by trinity that most rely on alcohol and antidepressants o get thru the day

 

[ppp]

jesus existed. the purpose of life is to worship the one god. the creator. I realized that and left church for islam. 2002. my life is more serene today as a result. my friends in church are so confused by trinity that most rely on alcohol and antidepressants o get thru the day

Plenty of people without religion have lives that make sense.

 

[KWED]

jesus existed. the purpose of life is to worship the one god. the creator. I realized that and left church for islam. 2002. my life is more serene today as a result. my friends in church are so confused by trinity that most rely on alcohol and antidepressants o get thru the day

And yet, you seem incapable of defending the flaws and contradictions in Islam. You can't even explain what it is about the Quran that convinces you it was written by a god rather than by men. You seem more concerned with attacking a strange caricature of Christianity than in defending your own beliefs. Something ain't right.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

If your "symbolic" hierarchy is based on the physical examples you gave, then it is nonsense.
If it isn't based on those examples, then why give those examples?

No. Its not based on the physical examples. Its based on the symbolic examples.

The words that are in sets of three.

Valleys, hills, and mountains.

Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; Luke 3:5

Considering them as three different levels of heights could be an easier way to continue to explain how other word sets of three are also the same hierarchy.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Your garbled explanation does.
"lay not for yourselves treasures upon earth. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven" makes sense on its own. Why all the nonsense about valleys and brass and oil and bows, etc...?

Look at these sets of three.

Brass, silver, gold:
And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass, Exodus 25:3


Corn, Oil, Wine:
And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22


Spear, sword, bow
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13


Moon, stars, sun:
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;


Cattle, goats, sheep
And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17





They are all talking about the same three things.



Thats is why strange verses like this make sense.

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Because the sun symbol is in the same place as the bow symbol. And the moon symbol is in the same place as the spear symbol.

The symbols have certain positions.

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Ive tried explaining this to you before.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

So you don't think the Bible contains any accounts of any supernatural events. Everything described therein has a natural explanation.

Yes. The stacking and weaving of symbols is not magic.

Magic is just an interpretation.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Your garbled explanation does.
"lay not for yourselves treasures upon earth. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven" makes sense on its own. Why all the nonsense about valleys and brass and oil and bows, etc...?

Why do you think it makes sense on its own. What do you think it means?

Its talking about earthly treasure as wrong, heavenly treasure as right.

The treasure:

Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold

But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 6:19


Iron is the Earth. while brass, silver, and gold are three heavenly levels:

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23


The treasure is a heavenly hierarchy.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You have gotten it backwards. I need evidence to conclude that they were exceptions to the norm.

Ok. Have you heard the "prophecy" that one day the animals will "magically" be at peace with each other and become vegetarians. As in the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the lion shall eat straw with the Ox etc?

Its a quite well known one.

I can explain it to you as being correct but without magic and without the prediction of a future event.

No magic. No prophecy.

Would you consider that as evidence?

 

[ppp]

Ok. Have you heard the "prophecy" that one day the animals will "magically" be at peace with each other and become vegetarians. As in the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the lion shall eat straw with the Ox etc?

Its a quite well known one.

I can explain it to you as being correct but without magic and without the prediction of a future event.

No magic. No prophecy.

Would you consider that as evidence?

Are you asking if I would consider your ability to interpret the text in a given way as evidence of authorial intent; or that the ancient Hebrews were exceptions to every other ancient culture and didn't believe in magic? No, of course not.

 

[KWED]

No. Its not based on the physical examples. Its based on the symbolic examples.

The words that are in sets of three.

Valleys, hills, and mountains.

Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; Luke 3:5

Considering them as three different levels of heights could be an easier way to continue to explain how other word sets of three are also the same hierarchy.

Look, you may as well stop this, because it simply makes no sense.

 

[KWED]

Look at these sets of three.
Brass, silver, gold:
And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass, Exodus 25:3

Why those three? Two are elements and one is a compound. What are they "a set of three"?

Corn, Oil, Wine:
And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22

Again, why do you claim they are a "set of three"? What is the connection?

Spear, sword, bow
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13

Ah, I think I get it now. You are trying to construct some system around these verses in the Bible, a kind of post hoc rationalisation.

Moon, stars, sun:
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

You think you have found some arcane symbology hidden within the text.

Cattle, goats, sheep
And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17

Which is probably why it seems to make sense to you but not to anyone else.

They are all talking about the same three things.

They are clearly not.

Thats is why strange verses like this make sense.
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11
Because the sun symbol is in the same place as the bow symbol. And the moon symbol is in the same place as the spear symbol.
The symbols have certain positions.
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Ive tried explaining this to you before.

Bibble.

 

[joelr]

jesus existed.

All historians agree that the gospel version of Jesus is a myth. A man who was teaching Judaism may have existed but the demigod savior is a myth based on Greek and Persians ideas already popularized in those religions.

the purpose of life is to worship the one god. the creator. .

Even though life has whatever purpose one gives it to suggest the purpose of life is to worship one God is absurd. Then that would mean there are billions of worshippers who are worshipping the wrong God? The purpose of life is to worship a God yet it leaves evidence that looks exactly like they are just stories created by people? No evidence that anything was created? People are telling you things that may not actually be true.

I realized that and left church for islam. 2002. my life is more serene today as a result. my friends in church are so confused by trinity that most rely on alcohol and antidepressants o get thru the day

Serenity is great but this is seen in all cults. People claim this in Scientology. They claim it in fundamentalist Baptist churches. Hindu's claim to have a relationship with Krishna and he is always with them and watching over them.
Religions tend to cause a sense of serenity when you don't look into the claims with critical thinking.
Serenity doesn't mean Scientology is true or Hinduism or fundamentalist Christianity.
Your red herring about some Christians needing substances is very sketchy.

For one there are millions of Christians who are also serene and blissful in their religion. Same with Hindus. So that point is completely moot? As if there are no members of Islam who see a doctor for antidepressant medications? Mental illness has no relationship with which religion one practices? Why is it always Islamic members who seem so worried about making comparisons to Christainity?


Many Christians do not even accept the trinity as part of their theology?
Your post is almost definitely a complete lie, I find it hard to believe you actually know Christians who were like "man I'm so confused about the trinity I had to get a script for Prozac! Now I'm so confused about it I'm boozing like crazy...." has never been said by a human, ever.
Even if a religious person may not understand the concept of Trinity (no one does really), they don't freak out about it. I would worry about your own house before you criticize others. Any time someone claims "yeah I got some new scripture. Where did I get it? Oh, well uh, an angel came to me and dictated it all...."
You are probably listening to made up stuff.