Are you Certain There is no God?

[Love God]

my sources are the Jews. If they did not buy your Messiah prophecy for the last 2000 years, how do you intend to convince a skeptic?

i would suggest you guys achieve an agreement between yourselves, before you even try to sell your product to outsiders.

Ciao

- viole

hey Viole.

what about the Jews that have accepted Jesus as their Saviour?

they are also known as Messianic Jews. Could ‘they’ not be the authoritative ‘they’ that you are insisting is necessary in order for you to believe?

Joy

“....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If I understand the bible correctly, I am responsible for my own understanding and not on some other’s understanding that may or may not be ‘right’?

 

[viole]

hey Viole.

what about the Jews that have accepted Jesus as their Saviour?

they are also known as Messianic Jews. Could ‘they’ not be the authoritative ‘they’ that you are insisting is necessary in order for you to believe?

Joy

“....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If I understand the bible correctly, I am responsible for my own understanding and not on some other’s understanding that may or may not be ‘right’?

They are a strong minority. And usually grown up in a Christian place.

What about the vast majority. namely the ones who do not agree that Jesus is the fulfilment of the prophecy? So, whether a prophecy has been fulfilled or not, seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Some accept it, some don't, even though they all share the same book.

So, given that, I really do not see how you can convince anybody external to the system. Namely, the skeptics who believe that your Scriptures are just fiction made up by some ancient people.

“....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Since I do not believe for a second in that Jesus tails of sin, salvation and stuff, in the same way I do not believe in Pinocchio and noses growing when you lie, I wonder what kind fear and trembling I am supposed to have.

Do you feel fear and trembling?

Ciao

- viole

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

IMO: An important question in this context is "What comes first: Faith or Experience?"

IF Faith comes first
THEN you won't Experience something IF you have No Faith
AND you stay a disbeliever IF Experience is your only way to believe

It makes sense to me, that Faith comes first. That is how stuff goes in this world.
You meet a gorgeous girl, without Faith in yourself you won't ask her out, hence No Experience
Same with the spiritual world. No Faith = No Experience = No Belief

Note: I don't say that it is wrong/good to have "No Faith". Maybe some are born to "have Faith" while others are born to "have No Faith"

The "faith'" one has in ones own capabilities to accomplish a certain thing, is vastly different from the "faith" one has in believing an undefendable proposition, like religion.

The first is trust.
The second is blind belief.

In the case of "trust", one can surely be overconfident, but it's still vastly different from "blind belief".

There's a difference between trusting in your capabilities and being plain superstitious.


Also, when "faith" comes first and then you start seeing things that "fit" that faith... When zoomed in on it and analyzed, you will find that they are actually cases of confirmation bias.

Like when one truly believes a sceance reader can actually speak to dead spirits. The "reader" will hit you with a list of names and then suddenly hits you with the name, or variation thereof, of your dead grandmother and you'll be all "HOW DID SHE KNOW????" - while you are completely ignoring that that conman just fired 36 names in your direction which were all complete misses, and you only remember the one hit.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All these things exhibit purposes in nature:


Consider the hands. They are skillfully useful for the intellect to work with.

Consider the legs and feet. They work in conjunction with your will to move, lift, stand, run, and work.

Consider the eyes. They allow us to see what we are doing. To identify objects and realities.

Consider the mind. It conceives from perception and constructs from reason and imagination. It forms memories for many reasons.

You are self aware.

Consider the ears that bring forth the sounds of actuality.

Consider language and the ability to vocalize.

Consider the fruits and vegetables that are vital to the nutrition of the human body.

Everything the body can do is organized for the convenience of being and actions. It enables us to act upon our motives.

Consider the heart. It is there for appreciations, joys, peaces, loves, enjoyments, fulfillment, relationships, conscience, wonder, awe, pleasures, character of being, neutralities, ambivalences, and identity of individuality.

Consider the nose. It breathes and smells the nature we live in.

The ability to communicate. The ability to understand and comprehend. The ability to embody characteristics of virtuous character. The ability to make logical deductions about important realities. The ability to weigh options. The ability to make judgments. To consider causes and effects or lack thereof.

We can think from the heart or solely from the mind.


The Human Body: To put things in the right places for the right reasons. And still get some aesthetic beauty out of it. And to get a measure of powerful, purposeful action potential out of it. To get a measure of effective efficiency and convenience out of it.

To produce art, and creature conveniences and necessities for life.

DNA uses coded information to construct body and being.


Again human life is a long, line of just right scenarios to exist the way we do.

The mind is made to know and remember.
The mind is made to think and figure out things to do.
The mind works with ideas.
The body is built to use the environment.
The mind is made to interpret and understand things for now and future reference.
We build our future off of our past remembrances.
The mind is made to see patterns and relationships.
The mind is made to identify things.
The mind is made to recall pertinent information.
The mind is made to interact with the environment.
The mind is used passively and willfully.
The mind is an intelligent construction.

As if God were a reality hacker.

The mind is made to create and build things.
The mind is meant to explore.
The mind is meant to learn things.
The mind is meant to construct meanings.

Meaning is a necessary part of existence because mind does all these things.

The mind is built to find phenomena and make meaning of phenomena it finds.

Mind and body are tools to learn, to act, to survive, and to remember for usage.


It is senseless to think that somehow all this functionality is mindlessly made. That pure mindless incident arranged things this way. Instead everything the body and mind are is meant for to do something.


If not a God then something intentional planted us here by way of natural forces. Evolution simply ignores the appearance of mind constructing life. It doesn't address the problem so much as glaze over it.

Science can't address the intrinsic nature of these phenomena because it is restricted to extrinsic observance of how the physical world works. The best science can do with regards to only consciousness is to find the physical mechanisms that enable it to switch on or off. That won't be an explanation of all the purposes found in life.

As to the nature of how God exists that is an incomprehensible mystery. Because of its incomprehensible nature it is ruled out.

There's mystery enough to compel the idea of God. Nothing is ideal in nature but we have just enough to invoke the mystery.

I'm always amazed at the contrasting intuitions of atheists and theists. It's to the point that each seems totally alien to the other. And much is assumed about the reasons why people go to one side or the other.

You confuse "function" with "purpose".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This doesn't equate to anything I am thinking. Nor does it relate to what I wrote.

It actually does. The problem is that you don't realize the blatant teleological fallacy you engaged in.

A puddle does not exhibit purpose.

In the analogy, the hole is asserted to exhibit purpose. And that purpose is to be perfectly shaped to hold the puddle.

But it is off course the water that takes the shape of the hole.

I could turn this around and say that an atheist finds nothing sacred or meaningful about life and rather finds that everything is insignificant.

That would be nihilism, not atheism.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Thus you must be able to produce proof that the mind of man has no source external from a flesh brain.

Whut?

No, theists claim that the mind has a source external from the physical brain. It's upto them to prove that.


This is like when I see "wood comes from trees" and then you ask me for "proof" that wood has no other source then trees. Surely you can see how that is ridiculous.

What is that certain unquestionable poof?

All the evidence we have shows that minds are the product of physical brains.
Even artificial intelligence is produced by material "brains" (computers).


There is no evidence to suggest anything else.
If you, as a theist, want to claim there is something else, then upto you to prove that.

 

[osgart]

You confuse "function" with "purpose".

There's so many functions that cohere to work together in harmony of the human body and its consciousness, that it is strongly reasonable to consider the strong possibility that these functions are purposed to be. I would not call it design, but there is foresight, and plans that make up the human body, and its consciousness. Its of a higher order, and efficiency of function than a rock as a paper weight.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you, as a theist, want to claim there is something else, then upto you to prove that.

Actually I have nothing I have to prove to any person.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All the evidence we have shows that minds are the product of physical brains.
Even artificial intelligence is produced by material "brains" (computers).

No electricity, no artificial intelligence.

Regards Tony

 

[Love God]

Their statement is very clear. The prophecy about the Messiah has not come to pass.
And they are not scholars. They are the closest we can think of in terms of being direct witnesses of those events.

So, why should we go through the rest when something so big, the very basis of your entire worldview, is disputed among the people that studied the common parts of scriptures?

It is like asking me to trust, say, a mathematical book allegedly full of truths, when we know mathematicians are not sure if some basic parts are true.
When a book assumes truths everywhere, and you find one hole, especially such a big one, you can toss it without any doubt (and without losing further time).

Ciao

- viole

well let’s look at the bible has to say about the messiah:

“The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
until Shiloh come;
and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Since the death of Jesus happened, there is no lineage available for the Jews.

So now, in today’s time, how are ‘they’ going to be able to prove that the messiah is out of the line of Judah?

The lineage of both Joseph and Mary are both given. One in Matthew and one in Luke. Both are of the line of King David

Food for thought.

 

[Love God]

They are a strong minority. And usually grown up in a Christian place.

What about the vast majority. namely the ones who do not agree that Jesus is the fulfilment of the prophecy? So, whether a prophecy has been fulfilled or not, seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Some accept it, some don't, even though they all share the same book.

So, given that, I really do not see how you can convince anybody external to the system. Namely, the skeptics who believe that your Scriptures are just fiction made up by some ancient people.



Since I do not believe for a second in that Jesus tails of sin, salvation and stuff, in the same way I do not believe in Pinocchio and noses growing when you lie, I wonder what kind fear and trembling I am supposed to have.

Do you feel fear and trembling?

Ciao

- viole

Do I fear and tremble?

Yes.

And not in a way that a nonbeliever (in the bible) would imagine.

When I was a child I was considered a ‘goody two-shoes’. The other kids did not like me because I avoided their shenanigans and so they made fun of ‘how good’ I was.

but I feared my father’s punishment for stepping out of line more than I feared the ridicule of the other kids.

same with God. I do not fear man’s ridicule. I fear God’s wrath!

To me, to whom am I going to ultimately answer to?

have you ever told a lie? Have you ever gotten away with it? Or use any thing that you would consider ‘wrong’... have you ever gotten away with something that you know or feel was wrong?

where is the ‘punishment’ that is deserved for doing wrong and yet you have ‘gotten away’ with it?
But have you really?

if one believes the bible, no one is ‘getting away’ with anything.

all ‘wrongs’ are going to be judged:

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But because people tend to think that no righteous judgment exists:

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I find it is wiser to fear the right person and not to be pressured into going against my spiritual Father who is in heaven.

So do I fear God? Amen and amen! The bible says I answer to him in the end!

Joy

“Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There's so many functions that cohere to work together in harmony of the human body and its consciousness, that it is strongly reasonable to consider the strong possibility that these functions are purposed to be.

A superficial and uninformed first look will indeed lead to that conclusion.
Darwin showed conclusively how that is an incorrect conclusion.

I would not call it design, but there is foresight

No, there isn't.

, and plans that make up the human body, and its consciousness. Its of a higher order, and efficiency of function than a rock as a paper weight.

It actually isn't. It sure grew to extreme complexity, through the evolutionary process of accumulation.
But at bottom, it's the same thing.

You are making a teleological fallacy, with some argument-from-awe sauce on top.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Actually I have nothing I have to prove to any person.

Regards Tony

That may be your opinion, but your opinion doesn't affect the concept of the burden of proof.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No electricity, no artificial intelligence.

Regards Tony

Do you also have a relevant point to make also or is this it?


Yes, computers require a power source. In our tech, that power source comes in the form of electricity.
Physical organic brains require a power source also. In humans, that power source is food.

How is this relevant to the actual point I made, which is that all the evidence points to "minds" being produced by physical brains?

 

[viole]

Do I fear and tremble?

Yes.

And not in a way that a nonbeliever (in the bible) would imagine.

When I was a child I was considered a ‘goody two-shoes’. The other kids did not like me because I avoided their shenanigans and so they made fun of ‘how good’ I was.

but I feared my father’s punishment for stepping out of line more than I feared the ridicule of the other kids.

same with God. I do not fear man’s ridicule. I fear God’s wrath!

To me, to whom am I going to ultimately answer to?

have you ever told a lie? Have you ever gotten away with it? Or use any thing that you would consider ‘wrong’... have you ever gotten away with something that you know or feel was wrong?

where is the ‘punishment’ that is deserved for doing wrong and yet you have ‘gotten away’ with it?
But have you really?

if one believes the bible, no one is ‘getting away’ with anything.

all ‘wrongs’ are going to be judged:

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But because people tend to think that no righteous judgment exists:

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I find it is wiser to fear the right person and not to be pressured into going against my spiritual Father who is in heaven.

So do I fear God? Amen and amen! The bible says I answer to him in the end!

Joy

“Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Well, if the Bible says so, then it must be true.

Ciao

- viole

 

[osgart]

A superficial and uninformed first look will indeed lead to that conclusion.
Darwin showed conclusively how that is an incorrect conclusion.




No, there isn't.



It actually isn't. It sure grew to extreme complexity, through the evolutionary process of accumulation.
But at bottom, it's the same thing.

You are making a teleological fallacy, with some argument-from-awe sauce on top.

You are asserting it's explained. But it's not shown to be so. All you can say is that nature does it, nothing more.

It's just your certainty, and not actual knowledge.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Physical organic brains require a power source also. In humans, that power source is food.

The human body runs on electricity, the food is not a source, it is a fuel.

Electricity is everywhere, even in the human body. Our cells are specialized to conduct electrical currents. Electricity is required for the nervous system to send signals throughout the body and to the brain, making it possible for us to move, think and feel.
How the human body uses electricity - University of Maryland Graduate School

Just as a computer needs a programmer, so does the mind of man.

Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The human body runs on electricity, the food is not a source, it is a fuel.

Whatever. Actual point remains unaddressed.

Electricity is everywhere, even in the human body. Our cells are specialized to conduct electrical currents. Electricity is required for the nervous system to send signals throughout the body and to the brain, making it possible for us to move, think and feel.

How the human body uses electricity - University of Maryland Graduate School

Again, whatever. All this is besides the point.

Although it is kind of funny that you actually acknowledged my point somewhat, with the bolded part.

Just as a computer needs a programmer, so does the mind of man.

1. shifting the goalpost. The point was about minds being products of physical brains.

2. false equivocation. a computer needs a creator because it is a non-natural object. Humans are natural objects.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You are asserting it's explained. But it's not shown to be so. All you can say is that nature does it, nothing more.

It's just your certainty, and not actual knowledge.

No.

It is what 200 years of research, which resulted in +300.000 peer reviewed scientific papers on the subject, has confirmed.

I'm as certain about evolution theory as I am about germ theory.

Evolution theory is actually one of the most solid and well-established ideas in all of science. Ironically, it's also the most controversial in the non-scientific populace. And religion is entirely to blame for that.

 

[osgart]

No.

It is what 200 years of research, which resulted in +300.000 peer reviewed scientific papers on the subject, has confirmed.

I'm as certain about evolution theory as I am about germ theory.

Evolution theory is actually one of the most solid and well-established ideas in all of science. Ironically, it's also the most controversial in the non-scientific populace. And religion is entirely to blame for that.

Ok, but it has nothing to say about intention, and purpose in nature. It doesn't even address the subject.