Are we too soft?

[GodAgain]

Is that "Mod advisory" directed at me? What in my post is wrong or offensive? Not that anyone with true understanding fears challenge anyway.

Only the egotistical can be offended by mere challenge, and the more vulgar the challenge, the less the possible offense. If someone posted here, "Hindus are idiots!" all true Hindus would only smile and pray for the insulter. They would certainly not want the insulter censored. All people are our brothers. We may struggle with our brothers, but we don't give up on them.

All religions, including Hinduism, are most insulted by egotism and fear of challenge. The idea that Hinduism should be revered because it is relatively ancient is offensive to all true Hindus. And, dear Mod, your idea that we Hindus are so sensitive about challenges to our religious philosophy that we should be protected from such challenges is also offensive to us because it suggests we are childish and egotistical.

Fortunately, our understanding is such that we are not offended by your suggestion. We understand you meant no harm.

 

[blackout]

GodAgain,

Your profile does not state your religion.
RF has rules about sub forums.

If you yourself are not a Hindu,
your comments in the Hindu forum...
ummm...
well, enter as a gracious guest
in someone else's home.

Know what I mean?

I'm guessing the moderator simply did not know for sure weather you were hindu or not.

 

[GodAgain]

Enter as a gracious guest, indeed. But welcome, as a gracious host, as well.

I know of no true Hindus who fear interest in their philosophy or challenge to its precepts. But this thread was about some alleged Hindu "softness," not about Hinduism itself, and the responses were failures to understand Hindu philosophy, not use of Hindu philosophy to answer OP's question.

But if this Hindu sub-forum is really a Hindutva sub-forum, than yes, I should leave.

I don't label myself as a member of any religion. I don't believe in such labels. But I will not say I am not Hindu. You should not conclude that I am not.

Indeed, I'd say, most especially, that no true Hindu cares about such labels, especially considering how dubious is the very label "Hindu" itself. We all accept "Hindu" as a shorthand label; most of us understand why this shorthand label is of limited value.

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is a silly view.

Oil is cheaper now, bourses are moving upwards again. Would you not allow us to have some self-confidence? Should we get worried about all small ups and downs.

You have your own opinions about things (we do not know who you are. You may be a Pakistani coming to a hindu forum with a desire only to denigrate Indians and hinduism. You may just be a mole), and we have our own.

I am proud of being what I am. An Indian, a hindu, and a brahmin. I consider your opinion as completely foolish. Each country fights for its own interest. Why did not the developed countries agree to do away with agricultural subsidies when they want the developing nations to do that? Why do the developed countries do not want to reduce their carbon emissions but want China, India, and Brazil to do this. Why do the christians and muslim countries spend billions of dollars for evangelism, if it does not matter.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And mostly, please, understand that to be either proud or ashamed of your religion is to fail to understand the essence of spirituality.

What is spirituality? I am an atheist hindu. I believe neither in spirits nor in God. The best people are those who never attacked anyone, and India is one of them. The victors in the wars are shameless, otherwise they would not trouble others. They are guided by greed or religious begotry.

Oldest means that there has been no significant break in religion as in India in spite of many influxes. Oldest also means mature. We do not go attacking the beliefs of other people as you are doing here. Do you mean to say that there should be nothing of modernity if we are to be called an old culture. Is that why muslims want burqa and stoning to be the law in their coutries? Will that enable them to get a badge of being an old culture?

What is wrong if films are important to India today, they are part of the entertainment industry. Are they not important in other countries? Indian film and TV are appreciated in many parts of the world, even in Pakistan and Afghanistan, where they are banned officially but watched secretly.

 

[michaelm]

How interesting that the egos get stirred up so much by a few typed words.

'Hindus' know about the need to go beyond the dualities.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Some hindus do not believe in duality, but not all people see it that way. Were the kauravas any thing other than Brahman? But they were ignorant. Maya.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Taking the Moderators point into consideration must express that everyone has some understading of the Sanatan Dharma [hinduism] Sanatan Dharma means the Eternal Law which has no begining or end. It also means a Way of Life because it is already known that everything comes and goes back to the source [eventually]. In that sense every human is a follower of Sanatan Dharma by default be they be following Christianity, islam etc. they all fall under the term Sanatan Dharma.
If everyone understand this simple concept then the mental barriers will fall and humans could live as a single family of another Being.
Since life itself as maleable, soft, a flow similarly people of this region [India] where Sanatan Dharma is understood as mentioned above are always open and in doing so is surely growing in real terms than the west which is growing only materially.
Softness is therefore a feature of life itself which in itself is a virtue.
Love & rgds

 

[Surya Deva]

I think Hindus are, at large, very soft. I mean soft on the fact that they don't actually represent their religion, do not make attempts to learn more about their religion and allow misconceptions about it to propogate. A friend of mine, a non-Hindu once said to me that he actually sympthaises with Hinduism, he said because he has not come across any other religion that is so misunderstood. I completely agree with him. I am bemused at the the sheer quantity of people I encounter that have false notions about Hinduism. The usual:

You have like millions of gods don't you?
Tell me about the caste system is it still practiced in India?
Hinduism is a really violent religion, isn't it?
Hinduism is superstitious?
Women are oppressed in Hinduism aren't they?
How flexible are you(Yoga)?
Do you know Tantra(sex) ?

These are not really questions I personally enjoy answering, because they exude great ignorance and are disrespectful. However, every next question I am asked by a non-Hindu, tends to fall in one of those categories. Now what has contributed to this kind of ignorance over Hinduism is the fact that Hindus are too soft and do not represent their religion properly. I recall Will Durant saying in his book, that if Indians(Hindus) are not going to represent their religion, who will? I for one who try my best to represent my religion.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Suraj,
Once again reiterate that SANATAN DHARMA [hinduism] means the Eternal Law.
By defination every human is a follower of the eternal law or Sanatan Dharma including christians, muslims, jews besides those like buddism , jainism matter of fact every human on earth is its follower so it includes you.
Now if you say you do not know your religion or areignorant; then its your peoblem not that of the dharma.
Love & rgds

 

[want to be hindu]

"India is one of the oldest countries in the world" No, India is very young, as a nation, beginning only after the English left. Even the culture isn't old. Parts of it are. But parts are very modern. Film is hugely important to Indian culture. How old is that aspect of culture? And how borrowed?

Cant you see how this statement is impolite at best.

 

[Surya Deva]

Friend Suraj,
Once again reiterate that SANATAN DHARMA [hinduism] means the Eternal Law.
By defination every human is a follower of the eternal law or Sanatan Dharma including christians, muslims, jews besides those like buddism , jainism matter of fact every human on earth is its follower so it includes you.
Now if you say you do not know your religion or areignorant; then its your peoblem not that of the dharma.
Love & rgds

I am sure many on this forum who are Christiansm, Muslims and jews would disagree with you on that they follow Hinduism :yes:

I believe I did not say that I did not know my religion or am ignorant about it. In fact I am fascinated as to where you found me saying that?

 

[Surya Deva]

I think godagain means well. It is true that the modern nation state of India is new, and the culture practiced today by the majority is indeed a recent culture. Almost the entire Indian legal system, the system of defence, the economy, the industralization and government systems are all inherited from the British. The kind of capitalist lifestyle of Indians today is also inherited from the British. The poverty and illiteracy too is inherited from the British.

India prior to the British rule was a completely different country, and much of that has survived in the form of heritage and still survives as monuments, history and in certain parts of India. However, on the whole, India of today is largely a product of colonial times. For example in pre-colonial India, Indians was the richest nation in the world and did not, like present India, have hundreds of millions living in poverty. The poverty is a result of mismanagement of Indian people by the British, which had a policy which was, "Do nothing" It is startling to learn that during the British era the Indian economy did not grow, but instead atrophied. This is put into perspective if you consider that during two centuries of British rule, the Indian economy grew near 0%, and in 61 years of Independent India, it is now growing at 10-12%(slowed down to 8-9% recently) In 1700 pre colonial India, India had a share of 20+ percent of the entire economy of the world, in 1947 that share reduced to 4-5%. There is countless research showing how India was economically bled by the British and other European colonialists, this lead to several famines periodically in India killing tens of millions of Indians. It is due to this that Britain and Europe became richer and richer and the funds to fuel the industrial revolution were created. In fact even during WW2, much of the funds for the British were extracted from India. They had literally bled the country to death in two centuries and left it extremely impoverished when they left. The statistics show that when they left 95%+ in India were illiterate and desperately poor. Today, about 25% are poor and 35% illiterate. Indeed, these figures could have been even lower, but due to corruption and bad economics for decades that did not happen; nonetheless it is tremendous progress over what British India had. In 2020, the poverty is set to come down to 10-15% and illiteracy to 20%, with a majority of the Indian people middle class.

Now another part of the softness of Hindus is that they do not know or actually impose this history on the world. The black people have still not let the world forget about the slave trade of African people and the Jews have not let the world forget about the holocausts. Unfortunately, with many Hindus, not only are they letting the world forget, they are forgetting themselves.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Suraj,
This may surprise not only you BUT many many humans globally that by defination Sanatan Dharma means and may be found at Sanatana Dharma - Hutchinson encyclopedia article about Sanatana Dharma
as follows.

Sanatana Dharma

The preferred Hindu name for Hinduism. Sanatana Dharma can be roughly translated as the eternal essence of life, which unites all beings, and the teaching that leads one to realize that essence.


besides one must know that everything moves in cycles what goes up must come down and vice versa. Similarly one can see that US has only one way to go i.e. downhill.
So how does it feel to be a follower of sanatan dharma?
Love & rgds

 

[Surya Deva]

I am not surprised Zenzero, I employ that definition myself and prefer Santana Dharma over Hinduism and also generally use the spirituality as well to refer to Hinduism.

However, you claim that everybody is following Hinduism or Santana Dharma. This is not correct and it goes without saying that Christians, Muslims and Jews are not following Hinduism. I do understand your philosophy, however, you are saying that Hinduism is an eternal religion and a religion of all humans, and therefore everybody is on this path. However, in that case people who are adharmic(not dharmic) are also Hindus. But being adharmic clearly denotes that one is not dharmic and therefore not Hindu. Henceforth, all paths that do not fall under the dharmic family, are by definition adharmic and cannot be considered Hindu. Therefore, it is the case that all the Abrahmic religions you mentioned, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are not Hindu.

There is a tendency within contemporary Hinduism to label anything and everything as Hindu. This makes Hinduism as a religion redundant. If there are no fundamental tenets then there is no religion. Yet, this is not the case, because Hinduism is actually based on very fundamental tenets, and the title Santana Dharma itself alludes to the fact that these fundamental tenets are eternal and absolute principles. An account of these are described in the Vedas and Vedic literature. Therefore Hinduism can only be defined as a religion of the Vedas and all its values can only be constituted of Vedic tenets. Thus, a follower of Hinduism can only be someone who lives their life in consonance with Vedic tenets. Those not living their life in consonance with Vedic tenets are clearly not Hindu.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Suraj,
You are right.
Sanatana Dharma is based on a concept that every human's goal is finally to attain moksha and that can be done in various ways and Sanatan dharma has not been binded by any one way rather it has allowed freedom to develop it furthwe in any way wanted by people in the future and so jainism, buddhism, sikhism and so many ism could come out of this tree.
Sanatan Dharma talks about Sunyata too which is akin to Taoism and am sure practisioners of Islam, Christianity would also find similarity as Jesus himself had learnt yoga in Kashmir, India and also suppossed to have died and buried there.
So by defination all humans fall under this.
Rest is all how one takes it personally.
Love & rgds

 

[want to be hindu]

I am not surprised Zenzero, I employ that definition myself and prefer Santana Dharma over Hinduism and also generally use the spirituality as well to refer to Hinduism.

However, you claim that everybody is following Hinduism or Santana Dharma. This is not correct and it goes without saying that Christians, Muslims and Jews are not following Hinduism. I do understand your philosophy, however, you are saying that Hinduism is an eternal religion and a religion of all humans, and therefore everybody is on this path. However, in that case people who are adharmic(not dharmic) are also Hindus. But being adharmic clearly denotes that one is not dharmic and therefore not Hindu. Henceforth, all paths that do not fall under the dharmic family, are by definition adharmic and cannot be considered Hindu. Therefore, it is the case that all the Abrahmic religions you mentioned, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are not Hindu.

There is a tendency within contemporary Hinduism to label anything and everything as Hindu. This makes Hinduism as a religion redundant. If there are no fundamental tenets then there is no religion. Yet, this is not the case, because Hinduism is actually based on very fundamental tenets, and the title Santana Dharma itself alludes to the fact that these fundamental tenets are eternal and absolute principles. An account of these are described in the Vedas and Vedic literature. Therefore Hinduism can only be defined as a religion of the Vedas and all its values can only be constituted of Vedic tenets. Thus, a follower of Hinduism can only be someone who lives their life in consonance with Vedic tenets. Those not living their life in consonance with Vedic tenets are clearly not Hindu.

I do agree that orthodox Hinduism is the faith of the Vedas. I see orthodox Hinduism as a umbrella term for all the traditions that get there foundation from the Vedas. But, there are non-orthodox Hindu traditions that one might call Hindu also.Like the Buddhist Jain and Carvaka.

If you look at the history of the "Hindu Civilizations" of India.They have a very long history of quietly appropriating all the philosophys and belief systems that come to them from the outside.They then assimilate the ideas and transform them into there own.

I like to believe that it is only after the Muslims conquered India that Hindu's started to find out that there were different from the outsiders. This is the point that Hindus started to realize the identity of their own belief systems rituals and customs were not the same as Islam.

One of the ways that they put up a resistance to being converted to Islam is by defining what it means to be "Hindu" (a term that came later).

If India was never conquered by the Christians and Muslims.Hindu's might have just went along and never defined what a Hindu is or is not.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Want to be Hindu,

If you look at the history of the "Hindu Civilizations" of India.They have a very long history of quietly appropriating all the philosophys and belief systems that come to them from the outside.They then assimilate the ideas and transform them into there own.

I like to believe that it is only after the Muslims conquered India that Hindu's started to find out that there were different from the outsiders. This is the point that Hindus started to realize the identity of their own belief systems rituals and customs were not the same as Islam.

One of the ways that they put up a resistance to being converted to Islam is by defining what it means to be "Hindu" (a term that came later).

If India was never conquered by the Christians and Muslims.Hindu's might have just went along and never defined what a Hindu is or is not.

The understanding here is that early humans of this region became conscious of conciousness and could understand that they are all part of the same energy and whatever they are, whatever they get all come from the same source and has to return to that source. The Mind researchers [if they may be called so] or the conscious people named it Sanatan Dharma as they never pit down their names on what they found or copyrighted them for their progeny because they knew they come from the same source and go back there and there is nothing as progeny but they are just different forms and so since whatever they know also came from the same source so whatever they found goes back there. Therefore we see that here the contribution is various fields from astrology, astronomy, finace, medicine, sex, ways to Samadhi has been by many many conscious people who remained EGOLESS as the ETERNAL LAW ONLY continues without beginning or end BUT people will come and go.

So we should all call it Sanatan Dharma where anyone can add to the understanding whatever WAY/PATH/RELIGION they follow and still they will be under the eternal law and originally meant to be.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thus, a follower of Hinduism can only be someone who lives their life in consonance with Vedic tenets. Those not living their life in consonance with Vedic tenets are clearly not Hindu.

Who lives according to Vedic tenets? Have you ever had a yajna conducted in your home? Can you name that yajna? Hinduism is more than the Vedas. You cannot restrict hinduism to just Vedas. Why worship Rama and Krishna and many other imposters. They were never mentioned in the Vedas.